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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: Qwertyuiop on November 28, 2017, 08:39:33 PM

Title: Prison
Post by: Qwertyuiop on November 28, 2017, 08:39:33 PM
Anyone here ever been there?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on November 28, 2017, 08:47:50 PM
Anyone here ever been there?
What do you need to know ?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Qwertyuiop on November 28, 2017, 08:49:03 PM
What do you need to know ?

People can share their stories or what not about jail/prison. Just interesting.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: mmgfarb on November 28, 2017, 08:50:54 PM
People can share their stories or what not about jail/prison. Just interesting.
Why don't you start?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 28, 2017, 08:56:22 PM
what not about jail/prison
Its not something you want to do or someplace you want to go. Enough?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 28, 2017, 08:58:16 PM
Its not something you want to do or someplace you want to go. Enough?
Generally people don't choose to go there. They just think they can get away with it...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on November 28, 2017, 09:02:39 PM
Its not something you want to do or someplace you want to go. Enough?
Perhaps heís got a trip planned there & wants to know peoples experiences
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 28, 2017, 09:04:36 PM
Perhaps heís got a trip planned there & wants to know peoples experiences
Sounds like he just wants to hear war stories. If I'm wrong...
What do you need to know ?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yoohoo on November 28, 2017, 09:08:49 PM
Anyone here ever been there?
sure. I'll write a trip report
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 28, 2017, 09:09:05 PM
I heard FCI Milan is a pretty nice place.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yoohoo on November 28, 2017, 09:10:03 PM
I heard FCI Milan is a pretty nice place.
or the Ritz Carlton in Saudi Arabia
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on November 28, 2017, 09:11:19 PM
or the Ritz Carlton in Saudi Arabia
Not when Blackwater is there running things
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 28, 2017, 09:12:52 PM
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=51365.msg1124031#msg1124031
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 28, 2017, 09:13:26 PM
or the Ritz Carlton in Saudi Arabia
Can you make a living playing backgammon there?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: joe1234 on November 28, 2017, 09:26:29 PM
Anyone here ever been there?
TARB  :P
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ash on November 28, 2017, 11:18:03 PM
probably all the lubavitchers here visited a prison one time or another , i went weekly for about 5 years
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 28, 2017, 11:22:04 PM
probably all the lubavitchers here visited a prison one time or another , i went weekly for about 5 years
Took that long to come current on child support?  :P
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ual902 on November 29, 2017, 01:22:17 AM
Looking forward to a DDF trip report to prison like how was the KSML? What was the daily schedule like? Etc..

If anyone has one please share.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: mmgfarb on November 29, 2017, 01:40:21 AM
Looking forward to a DDF trip report to prison like how was the KSML? What was the daily schedule like? Etc..

If anyone has one please share.
Lie flat beds?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: sky121 on November 29, 2017, 01:51:27 AM
I actually always wondered why no religous Jew wrote a book about his experience in Jail.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: a good yeshiva bachur on November 29, 2017, 04:49:24 AM
I actually always wondered why no religous Jew wrote a book about his experience in Jail.
Wonít be interesting

Unless OP has a story to share...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 07:48:16 AM
I work in one. What do you want to know?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2017, 08:02:22 AM
I work in one. What do you want to know?
How many are there for not reading the T&C?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 29, 2017, 08:20:05 AM
Looking forward to a DDF trip report to prison like how was the KSML?
FCI Milan kosher meals are way better. This is what I have been told.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 08:21:38 AM
Kosher meals are way better in prison, period.
FTFY
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Something Fishy on November 29, 2017, 08:41:32 AM
I actually always wondered why no religous Jew wrote a book about his experience in Jail.

I've read at least two, both in Yiddish. One about an American prison and one about an Israeli. The names escape (ha ha) me at the moment.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 12:16:22 PM
How many are there for not reading the T&C?
More than you'd think lol Just happens to be the T&C was the USC (United States Code)

Also regarding kosher food being better, I've had a number of Jewish inmates specifically request to be taken off the kosher list because of issues of there being less variety of meals offered. Secular Israelis especially resent being automatically placed on the kosher list because many of them have not kept kosher a day in their lives and view being mandated to be provided only kosher meals as some sort of religious governmental interference into their personal lives a la the Chief Rabbinate. Americans don't care as much.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: saw50st8 on November 29, 2017, 12:22:38 PM
I've been to Alcatraz
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on November 29, 2017, 12:37:18 PM
I've been to Alcatraz
I watched the rock
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 01:28:19 PM
I watched the rock
I saw Kim Jong Un's brother get killed with VX
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 01:29:20 PM
Seems like we're playing Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 29, 2017, 01:30:55 PM
I saw Kim Jong Un's brother get killed with VX
...but did he really?  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 01:32:57 PM
...but did he really?  :)
Allegedly...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: beeweegee on November 29, 2017, 01:57:06 PM
I work in one. What do you want to know?
What do you do there?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Torkay on November 29, 2017, 02:00:38 PM
I thought there was a guy on here who spent time in rikers.... there was talk about him starting a thread
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 02:12:16 PM
What do you do there?
Can't really say on here. Sorry. Gets into issues of representing the state in a non-official capacity and all that jazz.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 02:14:10 PM
Can't really say on here. Sorry. Gets into issues of representing the state in a non-official capacity and all that jazz.
Oink
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 02:31:03 PM
Oink
If I may, what was your BKC?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 02:37:02 PM
If I may, what was your BKC?
Why would I ever give you that number?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 02:43:52 PM
Why would I ever give you that number?
Just wanted to see if you really had one ;) Hope you enjoyed your stay and that you never return.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: shlonx on November 29, 2017, 02:47:53 PM
There is a book in English about an Israeli's experiences in a jail in India, and how he escaped from prison. Fascinating read. It's called Escape from India.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 02:49:48 PM
Just wanted to see if you really had one ;) Hope you enjoyed your stay and that you never return.
Started with 113- and its Book and Case never heard BKC. Maybe administratively they call it that. And yes i was OBCC 1 Upper and 4 Upper. Enjoyed as much as hell can be enjoyed. When I say "Oink" its because Im being kind.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 02:51:00 PM
Started with 113- and its Book and Case never heard BKC. Maybe administratively they call it that. And yes i was OBCC 1 Upper and 4 Upper. Enjoyed as much as hell can be enjoyed. When I say "Oink" its because Im being kind.
Oh boy. Were the next two numbers 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 or 17? Before 2010?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 02:54:39 PM
Oh boy. Were the next two numbers 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 or 17? Before 2010?
Thats OG to you. 13 so you have 99999 permutations to try. One of them is me.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 03:00:22 PM
Thats OG to you. 13 so you have 99999 permutations to try. One of them is me.
If the last BKC you had started with 11313 then that's a big step in the right direction. Glad to hear you've stayed out of trouble.

Also, the last 5 digits are sequential so unless 99,999 people got arrested in 2013 and were issued BKC's starting with 113 it wouldn't take nearly that long.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 03:05:58 PM
If the last BKC you had started with 11313 then that's a big step in the right direction. Glad to hear you've stayed out of trouble.
Yeah. It was a one off slap on the wrist type of punishment. If hell can ever be called that.

Rikers is a third world country in the middle of the most sophisticated city in the world. People who have never been can never understand or even imagine. Whatever you read about it or see on TV is fluff compared to the reality of it.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 03:13:31 PM
Yeah. It was a one off slap on the wrist type of punishment. If hell can ever be called that.

Rikers is a third world country in the middle of the most sophisticated city in the world. People who have never been can never understand or even imagine. Whatever you read about it or see on TV is fluff compared to the reality of it.
IME, people who have never been don't care because they don't think they will ever be incarcerated. It's only when they or somebody close to them gets arrested that they decry what goes on in jail.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 03:17:45 PM
IME, people who have never been don't care because they don't think they will ever be incarcerated. It's only when they or somebody close to them gets arrested that they decry what goes on in jail.
Ignorance of the issue doesn't justify what goes in there. I spoke with a reporter who is constantly writing about conditions there and he doesnt get it either.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 03:21:30 PM
Ignorance of the issue doesn't justify what goes in there. I spoke with a reporter who is constantly writing about conditions there and he doesnt get it either.
I think it's plain hubris on the part of Reuven and Rivka Taxpayer. People think they're immune from the criminal justice system and derive a sort of weird benefit from seeing others punished. When I share with people things I've seen the usual response is approval as in a 'that's what they deserve' type of way.

Do you mean the gang stuff? The dehumanization? Curious what you're referring to.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 03:28:27 PM
Do you mean the gang stuff? Curious what you're referring to.
Im referring to the alleged smuggling by visitors which resulted in changes to how visitors are treated when it was the COs who continue to run smuggling operations. To the change in commissary fare due to alleged health benefits when in fact that created further unrest amongst the inmates. To unfettered abuse by COs. To substandard medical care, where you have to know the night before that you will be sick the next day in order to see a doctor at 6am and miss breakfast. To 3rd world dental facilities. To 5 minute meals. To subhuman conditions where if you get toilet paper its fed from a slot in the bubble. Shall I go on?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on November 29, 2017, 03:33:14 PM
Now this is what OP wants to know.
@Q, you listening ?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 03:34:28 PM
Now this is what OP wants to know.
Q, you listening ?
Shhhh
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 03:35:45 PM
Im referring to the alleged smuggling by visitors which resulted in changes to how visitors are treated when it was the COs who continue to run smuggling operations. To the change in commissary fare due to alleged health benefits when in fact that created further unrest amongst the inmates. To unfettered abuse by COs. To substandard medical care, where you have to know the night before that you will be sick the next day in order to see a doctor at 6am and miss breakfast. To 3rd world dental facilities. To 5 minute meals. To subhuman conditions where if you get toilet paper its fed from a slot in the bubble. Shall I go on?
Would love to keep this going but I'm actually headed to work where I don't have access to the internet. You can guess where ;D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 03:36:39 PM
Would love to keep this going but I'm actually headed to work where I don't have access to the internet. You can guess where ;D
Oink...
And I say that with the utmost respect.

Maybe an inmate or CO can lend you their smartphone. Or go to the library. They have internet...**cough cough**
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 03:37:54 PM
Oink...
And I say that with the utmost respect.
Painting everyone with a broad brush. Shkoyach Tzaddik. At least the experience has kept you out. Mission Accomplished
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Qwertyuiop on November 29, 2017, 03:42:15 PM
This thread is picking up nicely.Now we just need you guys in the closet to come out and share.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on November 29, 2017, 03:43:12 PM
Im referring to the alleged smuggling by visitors which resulted in changes to how visitors are treated when it was the COs who continue to run smuggling operations. To the change in commissary fare due to alleged health benefits when in fact that created further unrest amongst the inmates. To unfettered abuse by COs. To substandard medical care, where you have to know the night before that you will be sick the next day in order to see a doctor at 6am and miss breakfast. To 3rd world dental facilities. To 5 minute meals. To subhuman conditions where if you get toilet paper its fed from a slot in the bubble. Shall I go on?
This is like a SF teaser.
Still waiting for the full TR.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 03:45:57 PM
This is like a SF teaser.
Still waiting for the full TR.
I only learned from the best. Tease everything deliver just enough to keep it interesting.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 03:48:01 PM
One day when I write the book...its still a work in progress. The story and its attendant miracles continue to unfold daily BH.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on November 29, 2017, 03:50:30 PM
I only learned from the best. Tease everything deliver just enough to keep it interesting.
then you are doing a great job
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Essen est zich on November 29, 2017, 05:11:58 PM
Plenty of bochurim have had prison experiences... Through aleph institute
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 05:13:54 PM
Don't confuse visitation or mivtzaim with a prison or jail experience.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on November 29, 2017, 06:04:08 PM
.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 06:21:20 PM

Also, the last 5 digits are sequential so unless 99,999 people got arrested in 2013 and were issued BKC's starting with 113 it wouldn't take nearly that long.
Still more than 10,000
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 29, 2017, 08:13:55 PM
As a visitor, Rikers seemed by far the worst place I've seen. It's constantly ranked as one of worst prisons in the world. The only thing that seemed to distinguish the employees and the inmates were the uniforms. It's mind boggling that such a place exists a few hundred feet away from the paradigm of Western civilization and nobody gives a hoot. How society treats its most vulnerable defines them, which is a stinging indictment on every citizen on NY and the US that are aware of the travesties that systematically and regularly occur under the watch of the Justice department, without anyone caring. Ignorance is bliss.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 29, 2017, 08:16:45 PM
Painting everyone with a broad brush. Shkoyach Tzaddik. At least the experience has kept you out. Mission Accomplished
What goes on on the inside is indefensible. Period.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 08:17:09 PM
There is no awareness at all. For under $6 you can get on the Q100 bus and go to the "welcome center" without actually visiting anyone. A worthwhile trip to set your bearings right.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 29, 2017, 08:19:13 PM
There is no awareness at all. For under $6 you can get on the Q100 bus and go to the "welcome center" without actually visiting anyone. A worthwhile trip to set your bearings right.
Not always so simple to get in. You're subject to the whims of the guards.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 08:21:07 PM
Painting everyone with a broad brush. Shkoyach Tzaddik. At least the experience has kept you out. Mission Accomplished
I needed to go for myself. But for anyone that does what i did and endures more than I did, the justice system is broken.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on November 29, 2017, 08:23:02 PM
There is a book in English about an Israeli's experiences in a jail in India, and how he escaped from prison. Fascinating read. It's called Escape from India.
OOS
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002HMSKGA/?tag=cl03f-20&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 29, 2017, 08:23:58 PM
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/cca-private-prisons-corrections-corporation-inmates-investigation-bauer/

I read this a while ago. Found it to be a fascinating read into the mindset of how quickly people can mentally human life as automatically worth respecting. I think it as worthwhile to read as The Wave.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 08:27:22 PM
Not always so simple to get in. You're subject to the whims of the guards.
Only on visiting days of course. You can go up to the bus depot on the island without getting their ID to visit a specific person.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: shlonx on November 29, 2017, 08:35:33 PM
OOS
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002HMSKGA/?tag=cl03f-20&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

If anyone in Monsey would like to read it, I'd be happy to lend it to them.  :D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on November 29, 2017, 08:38:58 PM
Only on visiting days of course. You can go up to the bus depot on the island without getting their ID to visit a specific person.
I find it interesting that they let convicts have lights and sirens
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 08:44:54 PM
I find it interesting that they let convicts have lights and sirens
What does one thing have to do with another?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on November 29, 2017, 08:48:46 PM
What does one thing have to do with another?
Firstly, I am not trying to be offensive to you in any way. With that said there is a lot of things that a convict is restricted to, but driving around with lights and sirens not one of them? Why should they be in such a authoritative position over the public.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 29, 2017, 08:51:48 PM


Why should they be in such a authoritative position over the public.
I've asked that question on many unconvicted criminals.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 08:56:41 PM
Firstly, I am not trying to be offensive to you in any way. With that said there is a lot of things that a convict is restricted to, but driving around with lights and sirens not one of them? Why should they be in such a authoritative position over the public.
What authoritative about being a volunteer? Any state license requires background checks and they clear all convictions. There are surprisingly few restrictions on felons besides firearms. Also, what does financial crime have to do with position of authority.

I dont take offense. I just sense some animus.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on November 29, 2017, 08:58:30 PM
What authoritative about being a volunteer?
Did I say anything about volunteering? Or Hatzola?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on November 29, 2017, 08:59:59 PM
Overall I can understand your side. I just said I find it interesting. (Not disturbing)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 09:03:29 PM
Did I say anything about volunteering? Or Hatzola?
What about lights and sirens is authoritative? You implied something. Or did i just misread what you said. VTL 104 grants NYS firat responders the rights to use lights and sirens and to prudently disobey traffic laws in emergency situations. What does being a felon have anything to do with that?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 09:50:23 PM
There was a frum psychologist at Rikers who had rachmanus and let me sit in his office for 15 minutes so i could enjoy the AC.

Imagine no AC in a concrete building and its 90 degrees outside. Fans and ice water.

You get woken up some morning by the planes taking off from LGA. Runway is probably <1000 feet from Rikers.

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: wayfe on November 29, 2017, 10:16:07 PM
How society treats its most vulnerable defines them, which is a stinging indictment...

I'm sorry, are inmates our "most vulnerable"?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 10:18:08 PM
I'm sorry, are inmates our "most vulnerable"?
No they deserve to be treated as animals for financial crimes.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 29, 2017, 10:18:35 PM
I'm sorry, are inmates our "most vulnerable"?
Can you think of any group with less access to facilities and supplies to service their basic human needs?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: wayfe on November 29, 2017, 10:22:10 PM
There was a frum psychologist at Rikers who had rachmanus and let me sit in his office for 15 minutes so i could enjoy the AC.

Imagine no AC in a concrete building and its 90 degrees outside. Fans and ice water.

You get woken up some morning by the planes taking off from LGA. Runway is probably <1000 feet from Rikers.

I'm truly sorry you had to go through all that.

But very simply, isn't that the point of prison?

Unless you're arguing that prison doesn't actually act as a deterrent- how would remedy the situation without distroying it's purpose?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: wayfe on November 29, 2017, 10:24:11 PM
Can you think of any group with less access to facilities and supplies to service their basic human needs?

Yes
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 10:24:15 PM
Can you think of any group with less access to facilities and supplies to service their basic human needs?
If a guard seduces a prisoner that is stautory rape. Prisoners arent even capable of consenting to relationships.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 10:27:19 PM
I'm truly sorry you had to go through all that.

But very simply, isn't that the point of prison?

Unless you're arguing that prison doesn't actually act as a deterrent- how would remedy the situation without distroying it's purpose?
Im not sorry. I needed to go through it to get to where i am today.

There is punishment and there is punitive.

In Germany they dont punish prisoners who attempt escape because its a basic natural instinct to want to be free.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on November 29, 2017, 10:29:35 PM
Im not sorry. I needed to go through it to get to where i am today.

There is punishment and there is punitive.

In Germany they dont punish prisoners who attempt escape because its a basic natural instinct to want to be free.
im amazed that your saying this.  even from behind a username im sure its hard. but kol hakavod
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 10:32:58 PM
im amazed that your saying this.  even from behind a username im sure its hard. but kol hakavod
Its truly what i believe. Some of my imsanity would never have stopped without me going there and suffering the consequences of my actions.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 29, 2017, 10:33:20 PM
I'm truly sorry you had to go through all that.

But very simply, isn't that the point of prison?

Unless you're arguing that prison doesn't actually act as a deterrent- how would remedy the situation without distroying it's purpose?
Prison is not a torture sentence. In theory, it's meant to remove dangerous individuals from society. Starvation, lack of access to medical treatment, not being able to sleep at night, physical and mental abuse by the staff, and lack of access to basic hygiene are not part of that. The absolute lack of a modicum of privacy and the complete dehumanization are aren't necessary either. This is without even going into the difference between white collar and violent crime.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: wayfe on November 29, 2017, 10:33:24 PM
If a guard seduces a prisoner that is stautory rape. Prisoners arent even capable of consenting to relationships.

What point are you trying to make with this? And what does this have to do with a prisoner's basic needs?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 29, 2017, 10:33:56 PM
Yes
For example?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: wayfe on November 29, 2017, 10:35:16 PM
Prison is not a torture sentence. In theory, it's meant to remove dangerous individuals from society. Starvation, lack of access to medical treatment, not being able to sleep at night, physical and mental abuse by the staff, and lack of access to basic hygiene are not part of that. The absolute lack of a modicum of privacy and the complete dehumanization are aren't necessary either. This is without even going into the difference between white collar and violent crime.

Prison isn't only about removing dangerous individuals. There is definitely also an aspect of it acting to deter the general population from committing crimes.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 29, 2017, 10:37:55 PM
Prison isn't only about removing dangerous individuals. There is definitely also an aspect of it acting to deter the general population from committing crimes.
The above are wholly unacceptable deterrents. I will be dan lekaf zechus that you're talking from pure ignorance.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 10:38:18 PM
What point are you trying to make with this? And what does this have to do with a prisoner's basic needs?
Even consent which is a basic human right is stripped. Theyre very vulnerable.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: wayfe on November 29, 2017, 10:38:41 PM
For example?

I know plenty of hardworking families who live paycheck to paycheck, can't afford health insurance and don't qualify for Medicaid.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: wayfe on November 29, 2017, 10:39:55 PM
The above are wholly unacceptable deterrents. I will be dan lekaf zechus that you're talking from pure ignorance.

What would be an acceptable deterrent? Don't you see- it's a catch 22?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 29, 2017, 10:40:56 PM
I know plenty of hardworking families who live paycheck to paycheck, can't afford health insurance and don't qualify for Medicaid.
If you think these working families have less access to human resources than inmates, there's no point in this conversation.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: wayfe on November 29, 2017, 10:42:58 PM
Even consent which is a basic human right is stripped. Theyre very vulnerable.

But that's the thing- you forfeit your rights when you commit a crime...

But as for the above example- I still really don't get it. Are you saying you want prisoners to be able to consent to sex with their guards?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: wayfe on November 29, 2017, 10:44:27 PM
If you think these working families have less access to human resources than inmates, there's no point in this conversation.

It's not about access- it's about who's more vulnerable and (I'm sorry, no offense) more deserving.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 10:45:52 PM
Prison isn't only about removing dangerous individuals. There is definitely also an aspect of it acting to deter the general population from committing crimes.
Being afraid for your life, not having a pillow to sleep on, using yoir shoes as a wedge to prop up ypur head when you sleep, 5 minute meals, strip searches, 15 minutea of phone time every 7 hours, starvation rations, open toilet stalls with half walls, single button shower heads (with whatever comes out as your only source of hygeine), laundry done in sinks by hamd and dried on plastic chairs וכו וכו'

I can go on and on. Thats not a deterrent. That's abuse
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 29, 2017, 10:47:28 PM
It's not about access- it's about who's more vulnerable and (I'm sorry, no offense) more deserving.
I want no part in a society that bred your mindset. I take solace in the thought that it's not intentionally designed be this way; to a large degree it's just neglect and budget cuts by politicians that are trying to cut corners in places that will have the least effect on their reelection.

I will be dan lekaf zechus that you're talking from pure ignorance.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2017, 10:50:27 PM
I know plenty of hardworking families who live paycheck to paycheck, can't afford health insurance and don't qualify for Medicaid.
You are comparing THAT to prison?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: wayfe on November 29, 2017, 10:51:33 PM
Being afraid for your life, not having a pillow to sleep on, using yoir shoes as a wedge to prop up ypur head when you sleep, 5 minute meals, strip searches, 15 minutea of phone time every 7 hours, starvation rations, open toilet stalls with half walls, single button shower heads (with whatever comes out as your only source of hygeine), laundry done in sinks by hamd and dried on plastic chairs וכו וכו'

I can go on and on. Thats not a deterrent. That's abuse

So paint me a picture of a non-abusive deterrent.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 10:51:44 PM
What would be an acceptable deterrent? Don't you see- it's a catch 22?
Bernie Madoff shouldnt be in jail. He should be out working off his debt.why the life sentence. SMR should be out working to pay off his debt to the bank. What purpose does incarceration serve other than punitive punishment with no correlation to the crime.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: wayfe on November 29, 2017, 10:52:14 PM
You are comparing THAT to prison?

No, I'm thinking where I would allocate taxpayer money if I were in that position.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2017, 10:52:26 PM
I'm sorry, are inmates our "most vulnerable"?
No they deserve to be treated as animals for financial crimes.
You realize that there is a middle ground?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 10:53:38 PM
So paint me a picture of what a non-abusive deterrent looks like.
Not my job.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 29, 2017, 10:55:39 PM
So paint me a picture of a non-abusive deterrent.
Are you a mother?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on November 29, 2017, 10:56:25 PM
No they deserve to be treated as animals for financial crimes.
White collar criminals should never be stepping foot in there. Period
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 10:57:49 PM
You realize that there is a middle ground?
The federal camp system is a decent middle ground. The lengthy sentences are unacceptable. 54 months for stealing $300k from a bank is a bit much. Federal sentencing guidelines are terrible. State sentencing guidelines are draconian.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Baruch on November 29, 2017, 10:58:23 PM
So paint me a picture of a non-abusive deterrent.
Cutting prisoners off of society and their families is enough.
I'm not saying it should be a country club. They should have to work, etc. But why the abuse and dehumanization? I honestly get sickened to my stomach when I hear about prison conditions.

Besides for the above mentioned problems, remember that most prisoners rejoin society, and they're broken and dehumanized.
Is that a contribution to society?

Interestingly, prison reform is an issue that both liberals and conservatives increasingly agree on.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 11:01:00 PM
White collar criminals should never be stepping foot in there. Period
People dont realize that white collar criminals sentenced to more than a year can bunk with convicted murderers upstate. There is no minimum security option. State camps require physical and mental exertion that most white collar criminals are incapable of completing.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: wayfe on November 29, 2017, 11:15:11 PM
Are you a mother?

Yes. I see where you're going.

But to expect a mother's love and compassion when dealing with adults who have committed crimes a lot bigger than most mothers deal with, is unrealistic.

I'm NOT saying the system is perfect.

But if I have to give up more of my money for it, I can think of more areas I'd prefer they go to first.

I also do think it needs to be sufficiently harsh for it to be effective.

Unfortunately, I know people who have had close family members imprisoned for financial crimes and they don't seem sufficiently scared off.

Maybe it's because of ignorance as you say or maybe it's willful ignorance...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 11:15:22 PM
This misconception of a country club is offensive. I know a person who just finished a 4 year stint at a supposed club fed. He's broken in so many ways. There is no such thing as a country club prison.

Also, the vast difference between state and federalnis unimaginable. I casually walkednin to FCI Otisville with my phone, by mistake. At rikers they would have locked me up for promoting contraband.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 11:19:30 PM
There are so many reasons people can end up in prison. I understand that the state needs to implement guidelines at treating those individuals in its custody. However, the lowest common denominator works in math problems, sometimes. It fails miserably with human beings. The state employs it with impunity and dsregard for the human condition. That is shameful.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 11:21:18 PM
White collar criminals should never be stepping foot in there. Period
I respectfully disagree. Without the threat of incarceration, white collar criminals would just view whatever fine they pay as the cost of doing business. They leave a trail of misery in their wake with victims left to pick up the pieces of their shattered lives. Not to mention the effect on the victims who blame themselves for being gullible. A non-white collar offense can be excused as a spur of the moment impulse. White collar crimes are generally years in the making meaning that person woke up every day figuring out ways to defraud their victims with innumerable opportunities to do teshuva. And even, or perhaps especially when the victim is the government it makes such a Chilul HaShem that the damage to Klal Yisrael is incalculable.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 29, 2017, 11:23:22 PM
Yes. I see where you're going.

But to expect a mother's love and compassion when dealing with adults who have committed crimes a lot bigger than most mothers deal with, is unrealistic.

I'm NOT saying the system is perfect.

But if I have to give up more of my money for it, I can think of more areas I'd prefer they go to first.

I also do think it needs to be sufficiently harsh for it to be effective.

Unfortunately, I know people who have had close family members imprisoned for financial crimes and they don't seem sufficiently scared off.

Maybe it's because of ignorance as you say or maybe it's willful ignorance...

You're clueless (or worse). I was actually going in a different direction, but maybe it's better unsaid.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on November 29, 2017, 11:24:04 PM
I respectfully disagree. Without the threat of incarceration, white collar criminals would just view whatever fine they pay as the cost of doing business. They leave a trail of misery in their wake with victims left to pick up the pieces of their shattered lives. Not to mention the effect on the victims who blame themselves for being gullible. A non-white collar offense can be excused as a spur of the moment impulse. White collar crimes are generally years in the making meaning that person woke up every day figuring out ways to defraud their victims with innumerable opportunities to do teshuva. And even, or perhaps especially when the victim is the government it makes such a Chilul HaShem that the damage to Klal Yisrael is incalculable.
They should not be treated the same as murderous animals.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2017, 11:25:06 PM
I respectfully disagree. Without the threat of incarceration, white collar criminals would just view whatever fine they pay as the cost of doing business. They leave a trail of misery in their wake with victims left to pick up the pieces of their shattered lives. Not to mention the effect on the victims who blame themselves for being gullible. A non-white collar offense can be excused as a spur of the moment impulse. White collar crimes are generally years in the making meaning that person woke up every day figuring out ways to defraud their victims with innumerable opportunities to do teshuva. And even, or perhaps especially when the victim is the government it makes such a Chilul HaShem that the damage to Klal Yisrael is incalculable.
So now the government regulates how one does teshuva and how many opportunities one did or didnt have. You have to look at way more than what you mention. Sorry.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 11:32:03 PM
They should not be treated the same as murderous animals.
Post-sentencing I hear your argument. But prior to plea deal/trial/conviction, if the defendant can't bail out or is remanded they have to be kept in jail like everyone else. There is an important distinction between jail and prison. Jail is for the accused. Prison is for the convicted. Jails overwhelmingly use something called a classification score to determine where the accused ought to be housed. White collar defendants more often than not bail out, ironically using their ill gotten gains as a sort of get out of jail free card. That means at any given time there is may be a handful of white collar criminals in any jail, Rikers being no exception. As a result, white collar detainees are necessarily mixed with non-white collar detainees. Jails don't like mixing violent and non-violent anymore than you do. The liability of injury and lawsuit goes up and the city hates paying out to inmates.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Deal Guy on November 29, 2017, 11:32:58 PM
Is this thread about prison in general, or specifically Rikers?

How is Ottisville, different?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 11:35:35 PM
Is this thread about prison in general, or specifically Rikers?

How is Ottisville, different?
Otisville is a Federal Prison for people who have been convicted of a crime. Rikers is the equivalent of county lock up where people go until the disposition of their charge if they are unable to make bail. It just happens to be the lockup for the City of New York and so it gets a lot more attention than any other jail in America.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 11:42:08 PM
So now the government regulates how one does teshuva and how many opportunities one did or didnt have. You have to look at way more than what you mention. Sorry.
The government is only regulating the laws it passes on behalf of the people. The courts take into account prior bad acts as well as attempts at restitution and reconciliation. For sure teshuva matters. That's why a plea deal is often contingent on an allocution.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 29, 2017, 11:43:13 PM
Is this thread about prison in general, or specifically Rikers?
Has to be Rikers as they sure are not talking about FCI Milan.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 29, 2017, 11:50:05 PM


But that's the thing- you forfeit your rights when you commit a crime...


This is a truly horrific statement. Human rights, i.e. Rights everyone deserves purely for being human, should be stripped from criminals?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 29, 2017, 11:57:32 PM

This is a truly horrific statement. Human rights, i.e. Rights everyone deserves purely for being human, should be stripped from criminals?
The right to liberty. When somebody commits a crime, there is an effect on an injured party. The victim might be a person, a corporation, the government, etc. The state is the one that presses charges since it would be unfair if victims didn't have the resources to pursue justice on their own. It could be as simple as Vehicle Traffic Law where somebody speeds, gets convicted and forfeits the right to their money via payment of a fine. The more serious you get, the more you forfeit.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 12:00:51 AM
The government is only regulating the laws it passes on behalf of the people. The courts take into account prior bad acts as well as attempts at restitution and reconciliation. For sure teshuva matters. That's why a plea deal is often contingent on an allocution.
The allocution is only a formality. Nothing to do with teshuva.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 30, 2017, 12:01:30 AM


Your right to liberty. When somebody commits a crime, there is an effect on an injured party. The victim might be a person, a corporation, the government, etc. The state is the one that presses charges since it would be unfair if victims didn't have the resources to pursue justice on their own. It could be as simple as Vehicle Traffic Law where somebody speeds, gets convicted and forfeits the right to their money via payment of a fine. The more serious you get, the more you forfeit.

The statement was made in regard to basic human rights which are not based on merit. Instead of arguing that those rights are not human rights, she argued criminals forfeit their human rights, or in other words, criminals are not human.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 12:04:17 AM
Has to be Rikers as they sure are not talking about FCI Milan.
Try being an orthodox Jew in prison. Your experience is 1% of the challenges that face practicing Jews in prison. Even Otisville camp which is the preferred FCI camp for orthodox Jews has challenges.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 12:08:49 AM
Try being an orthodox Jew in prison. Your experience is 1% of the challenges that face practicing Jews in prison. Even Otisville camp which is the preferred FCI camp for orthodox Jews has challenges.
You are talking to the wrong guy. The two main reasons for prison is to punish and keep society safe from their crimes. It is not to cater to any religion.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 12:08:52 AM
The right to liberty. When somebody commits a crime, there is an effect on an injured party. The victim might be a person, a corporation, the government, etc. The state is the one that presses charges since it would be unfair if victims didn't have the resources to pursue justice on their own. It could be as simple as Vehicle Traffic Law where somebody speeds, gets convicted and forfeits the right to their money via payment of a fine. The more serious you get, the more you forfeit.
The injured party in a white collar crime lost money. The criminal can easily lose his life after losing his liberty. Just tick off the wrong person and youre dead. Simple slash of an artery and you bleed out in no time. Thankfully i had marketable skills. They needed my advice. So i was protected.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 12:09:43 AM
You are talking to the wrong guy. The two main reasons for prison is to punish and keep society safe from their crimes. It is not to cater to any religion.
Right, thats what the Constitution is for.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 12:11:45 AM
Right, thats what the Constitution is for.
I guess I missed the kosher section of the Constitution.  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 12:12:59 AM
Punishment that is not cruel and unusual. I submit that all our prisons violate that part of tbe Constitution. And prison protects society to a point.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 12:14:23 AM
I guess I missed the kosher section of the Constitution.  :)
The right to practice your religion is a Constitutionally protected right that is not lost due to incarceration. As are inumerable other rights.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 12:16:07 AM
Punishment that is not cruel and unusual. I submit that all our prisons violate that part of tbe Constitution. And prison protects society to a point.
I think you would agree the punishment should fit the crime. So what punishment should be given out for horrendous crimes?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 12:19:00 AM
The right to practice your religion is a Constitutionally protected right that is not lost due to incarceration.
What about taxpayers having to pay for you practicing your religion?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 12:20:24 AM
I think you would agree the punishment should fit the crime. So what punishment should be given out for horrendous crimes?
No idea. But financial crimes should be short.sentence, a taste. And then mandatory restitution.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 12:23:17 AM
What about taxpayers having to pay for you practicing your religion?
Separation of church and state is a myth. Tax exemptions for religious institutions are government funded handouts.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 12:23:40 AM
No idea. But financial crimes should be short.sentence, a taste. And then mandatory restitution.
What about the lives some financial crimes destroy?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 30, 2017, 12:24:14 AM
The right to practice your religion is a Constitutionally protected right that is not lost due to incarceration. As are inumerable other rights.
People with sincerely held religious beliefs pay the price for the overwhelming number of inmates who use religion as a guise for all sorts of nefarious activities. The number of non-Jewish inmates receiving kosher food throughout the country being a prime example. There is an element of ones rachmana patrei for an inmate, namely that they are being coerced and so can't expect the same level of observance as before they were incarcerated.

There's also an unmistakable irony of people convicted of breaking and thus promoting disrespect for the law then hiding behind the law as a way of manipulating the system to get what they think they are entitled to.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 12:24:55 AM
Separation of church and state is a myth. Tax exemptions for religious institutions are government funded handouts.
We are talking about the Constitution here.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 12:26:27 AM
There's also an unmistakable irony of people convicted of breaking and thus promoting disrespect for the law then hiding behind the law as a way of manipulating the system to get what they think they are entitled to.
I am shocked!!!  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on November 30, 2017, 12:26:45 AM
We are talking about the Constitution here.
Separation of church and state is not in the constitution
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 12:29:26 AM
Separation of church and state is not in the constitution
That's for another thread.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 12:30:08 AM
What about the lives some financial crimes destroy?
Get them back into society paying their debt. So incarceration is revenge?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 12:31:16 AM
People with sincerely held religious beliefs pay the price for the overwhelming number of inmates who use religion as a guise for all sorts of nefarious activities. The number of non-Jewish inmates receiving kosher food throughout the country being a prime example. There is an element of ones rachmana patrei for an inmate, namely that they are being coerced and so can't expect the same level of observance as before they were incarcerated.

There's also an unmistakable irony of people convicted of breaking and thus promoting disrespect for the law then hiding behind the law as a way of manipulating the system to get what they think they are entitled to.
Two wrongs dont make it right. Mumar ledavar echad much?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 12:34:45 AM
Get them back into society paying their debt. So incarceration is revenge?
No it is punishment. How do you repay a life you destroy?
ETA: By you I mean the criminal.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: sillypainter on November 30, 2017, 12:36:23 AM
@hvaces42 I am so sorry you had to go through this hell.

Can you give us a brief run down on what it was for.

How long ago?

Crime?

Years spent behind bars?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 12:36:42 AM
No it is punishment. How do you repay a life you destroy?
ETA: By you I mean the criminal.
Eye for an eye taken too literally.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on November 30, 2017, 12:36:59 AM
No it is punishment. How do you repay a life you destroy?
ETA: By you I mean the criminal.
why is it called Correctional Facility? because supposedly its for you to correct yourself in order to be a law abiding citizen. some are called prison because those are to punish
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 12:37:39 AM
@hvaces42 I am so sorry you had to go through this hell.

Can you give us a brief run down on what it was for.

How long ago?

Crime?

Years spent behind bars?
Not tonight. Maybe another time. Dont feel sorry. Say tehillim for those that still suffer.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 12:41:17 AM
why is it called Correctional Facility? because supposedly its for you to correct yourself in order to be a law abiding citizen. some are called prison because those are to punish
MCC is a fancy name for prison. Its main purpose is to punish and incarcerate. It does a good job at both.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: a good yeshiva bachur on November 30, 2017, 12:49:13 AM
Prison. How about you?

So I guess OP has a story to share..
Title: Prison
Post by: miles lover on November 30, 2017, 12:53:47 AM
Not tonight. Maybe another time. Dont feel sorry. Say tehillim for those that still suffer.
Oh shoots. Waiting for the report as well.
  Interesting to see that Lots of people are viewing this thread at the moment. Thereís something about prison that when you speak about it certain feelings come out that you donít regularly feel. Not sure exactly what it is about it. ( The shawshank redemption movie is popular for a reason.)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: elya on November 30, 2017, 01:57:02 AM
( The shawshank redemption movie is popular for a reason.)
Because its Morgan Freeman storytelling...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 30, 2017, 06:54:45 AM
People with sincerely held religious beliefs pay the price for the overwhelming number of inmates who use religion as a guise for all sorts of nefarious activities. The number of non-Jewish inmates receiving kosher food throughout the country being a prime example. There is an element of ones rachmana patrei for an inmate, namely that they are being coerced and so can't expect the same level of observance as before they were incarcerated.

There's also an unmistakable irony of people convicted of breaking and thus promoting disrespect for the law then hiding behind the law as a way of manipulating the system to get what they think they are entitled to.

Oh, the horror. What despicable nefarious activity. Requesting better food?!? Throw them to the dogs!

And the sheer audacity of these stinking cons to expect to be treated legally? Why should they have any protection from the law?


Oink


Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 30, 2017, 07:05:42 AM
What about taxpayers having to pay for you practicing your religion?
The poor taxpayers. You want to save them money? Lobby for sentencing guideline reform. The US has the highest inmate population percentage of any modern country in the world. To a large degree, that is due to the justice department having a lack of regard for the value of human life. I see that mindset is more common than one would like to think.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 07:11:49 AM
The poor taxpayers. You want to save them money? Lobby for sentencing guideline reform. The US has the highest inmate population percentage of any modern country in the world. To a large degree, that is due to the justice department having a lack of regard for the value of human life. I see that mindset is more common than one would like to think.
They'd rather fund the whimsical fantasies of a deranged prisoner (e.g. a sex change operation), over providing decent food and Heaven forbid kosher or halal meals. Thats just the sick liberal mindset.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on November 30, 2017, 07:19:34 AM
Quote
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak outó
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak outó
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak outó
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for meóand there was no one left to speak for me.

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: FO on November 30, 2017, 07:43:02 AM
The US prison and justice system is from one of the most backwards and corrupt in the western world. The land of the free, yeah right!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 07:45:22 AM
The poor taxpayers. You want to save them money? Lobby for sentencing guideline reform. The US has the highest inmate population percentage of any modern country in the world. To a large degree, that is due to the justice department having a lack of regard for the value of human life. I see that mindset is more common than one would like to think.
So now it is our justice system fault why we have such a high crime rate?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Something Fishy on November 30, 2017, 08:01:27 AM
Thankfully i had marketable skills. They needed my advice. So i was protected.

I am getting more and more curious with every passing post.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 30, 2017, 08:06:53 AM
I am getting more and more curious with every passing post.
He's making it all up just to get revenge on you. I'm just wondering why he thinks collective punishment is ok.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 08:08:41 AM
He's making it all up just to get revenge on you. I'm just wondering why he thinks collective punishment is ok.
Oy I wish it was just a bad dream.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 08:13:56 AM
I'm just wondering why he thinks collective punishment is ok.
They did this in school all the time.  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 30, 2017, 08:14:59 AM
They did this in school all the time.  :)
They also used to beat kids. I'd venture a guess you'd prefer they still did?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 08:20:07 AM
They also used to beat kids. I'd venture a guess you'd prefer they still did?
I prefer stricter discipline in schools.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on November 30, 2017, 08:36:37 AM
This thread must be one of the most thought provoking and eye opening threads on DDF. Kudos to @Qwertyuiop for starting it and to @hvaces42 for the openness and sharing the experience.

On the question of prison for financial crimes, I am still listening to the arguments on both sides (without justifying the prison conditions, even when I tend to think that financial crimes should get serious punishment that might go beyond monetary).

One thing that lurks in the back of my mind when it comes to those kinds of crimes, is the fact that (to the best of my knowledge) no-one did any jail time, or for that matter got any real punishment, for giving high financial ratings to MBSs that were trenches of sub-sub-prime debt. The ripple effects of their immoral and illegal activities, simply cannot be repaid. And while a lot of regulation and red tape has been added, all it does is make the cost of doing business a little higher, allowing the big guys with the deep pockets to keep on finding their own ways to make money, whether morally or not.

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 08:47:24 AM
One thing that lurks in the back of my mind when it comes to those kinds of crimes, is the fact that (to the best of my knowledge) no-one did any jail time, or for that matter got any real punishment, for giving high financial ratings to MBSs that were trenches of sub-sub-prime debt. The ripple effects of their immoral and illegal activities, simply cannot be repaid. And while a lot of regulation and red tape has been added, all it does is make the cost of doing business a little higher, allowing the big guys with the deep pockets to keep on finding their own ways to make money, whether morally or not.


How do you repay a life you destroy?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 08:55:46 AM
This thread must be one of the most thought provoking and eye opening threads on DDF. Kudos to @Qwertyuiop for starting it and to @hvaces42 for the openness and sharing the experience.

On the question of prison for financial crimes, I am still listening to the arguments on both sides (without justifying the prison conditions, even when I tend to think that financial crimes should get serious punishment that might go beyond monetary).

One thing that lurks in the back of my mind when it comes to those kinds of crimes, is the fact that (to the best of my knowledge) no-one did any jail time, or for that matter got any real punishment, for giving high financial ratings to MBSs that were trenches of sub-sub-prime debt. The ripple effects of their immoral and illegal activities, simply cannot be repaid. And while a lot of regulation and red tape has been added, all it does is make the cost of doing business a little higher, allowing the big guys with the deep pockets to keep on finding their own ways to make money, whether morally or not.
Because every president that pushed the "American Dream" of home ownership should be in prison with them. And that would never happen. I agree, the foreclosure crisis has victims who were disproportionately punished and perpetrators who got away with it.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 08:58:37 AM

The Judaic eye for an eye ethic has always been money. Never retribution. That is in G-d's purview alone.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on November 30, 2017, 08:59:28 AM

This isn't a life destroyed. We (globally) are suffering through years of unintended consequences of financial repression. No individual (or for that matter, institution or government) could repay those damages.

It might have been much better to allow some creative destruction, which would have been a lot more painful, but short lived. But that's an entirely different discussion about the appropriate responses of policymakers. But regardless of their responses, S&P, Moody's et al are still in business with seemingly untarnished reputations (definitely nothing like Arthur Andersen suffered from the Enron fiasco, though I'm not sure if anyone at Andersen actually paid a direct personal price, other than the demise of their employer - but they still ended up with millions in their pockets).
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 09:00:08 AM
The person who sent me to jail had every right to do so. however as his Rabbi told him he should not have been the messenger to do so even though I deserved it.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 09:06:32 AM
The person who sent me to jail had every right to do so. however as his Rabbi told him he should not have been the messenger to do so even though I deserved it.
That will take this thread in a whole different direction.  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on November 30, 2017, 09:07:48 AM
That will take this thread in a whole different direction.  :)
Said the prophet (who has a new supply of forks).
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: elit on November 30, 2017, 09:26:17 AM
No idea. But financial crimes should be short.sentence, a taste. And then mandatory restitution.
problem is that wouldn't provide any deterant if the worse outcome of getting caught is having to give back the money you took
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 09:35:41 AM
problem is that wouldn't provide any deterant if the worse outcome of getting caught is having to give back the money you took
So you're saying if prison sentences would be shorter more people would commit Financial crimes. That narrative is a fallacy. Most Ponzi schemes that are exposed, for instance, are crimes that started off innocently with no intent and snowballed. Bernie Madoff believed he can produce 10% returns and when he couldn't then it started turning into a Ponzi scheme.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on November 30, 2017, 09:37:11 AM
problem is that wouldn't provide any deterant if the worse outcome of getting caught is having to give back the money you took
It's not so hard to think of ways to make the outcome of getting caught worse with out resorting to prison.  How about house arrest for starters?  Work to home to work to home. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 09:43:32 AM
It's not so hard to think of ways to make the outcome of getting caught worse with out resorting to prison.  How about house arrest for starters?  Work to home to work to home.
I know a guy who was on house arrest while he was under arrest. His ankle bracelet showed every movement. The officer assigned to him suggested that he take one step at a time when climbing the stairs instead of taking two steps because he had plenty of time to spend at home. That's how close those bracelets are monitored.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 30, 2017, 09:45:34 AM
Oh, the horror. What despicable nefarious activity. Requesting better food?!? Throw them to the dogs!

Pretending to be religious so that they can attend a worship service which they use as a venue to get otherwise good kids addicted to drugs. That bad enough for you?

In terms of the food, it's your tax dollars. If you are ok with >10,000 inmates at any one time pretending to be Jewish to get kosher meals which cost several times more than the regular tray, that's fine. But don't complain when your taxes go up. That also includes people whose ID card doesn't say Jewish but take a kosher tray they are not entitled to leaving the actual observant person behind them on line without a meal. You think it's such a simple operation clothing, feeding and providing shelter for hundreds of thousands of people a year, many of whom are emotionally disturbed, mentally ill, addicted to drugs, HIV-infected, sociopaths, etc? Maybe better that we close Rikers, build a jail down the block from your home and drop them at your doorstep when they bail out. Or you could hire them and we can stop the vicious cycle altogether. Please call your elected representative and let them know!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: elit on November 30, 2017, 09:52:14 AM
So you're saying if prison sentences would be shorter more people would commit Financial crimes. That narrative is a fallacy. Most Ponzi schemes that are exposed, for instance, are crimes that started off innocently with no intent and snowballed. Bernie Madoff believed he can produce 10% returns and when he couldn't then it started turning into a Ponzi scheme.
I don't know much on this topic at all. was just thinking out loud.  my guess is there are countless studies indicating both ways.
but using guys that the deterant doesn't work as proof that it doesn't work seems to be a flawed argument maybe for every one that did there are two that didn't because of the deterrent
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 09:53:53 AM
When the COs stop smuggling drugs then there won't be an issue with drugs.

If you want to know my religious experience at Rikers let's start with a showing of Frisco Kid as part of our religious services. Friday afternoon when the chaplain is long gone home for Shabbos you can get a cup of grape juice to make kiddush on. I'll finish my kosher experience stories a bit later
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 09:56:21 AM
The main reasons for prison is retribution and incapacitation. Lets not forget that.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 09:59:30 AM
I don't know much on this topic at all. was just thinking out loud.  my guess is there are countless studies indicating both ways.
but using guys that the deterant doesn't work as proof that it doesn't work seems to be a flawed argument maybe for every one that did there are two that didn't because of the deterrent
I have a doctorate degree and you think I wasn't smart enough to know what the consequences of my actions were? With everything, it didn't deter me one bit. It was always there in the back of my mind. But sometimes people are sick and they make irrational decisions and those decisions result in going to prison. I don't think one person  who ended up in jail is ever deterred from doing the crime that they committed because of the possibility that they can go to jail at some later time.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 10:02:22 AM
The main reasons for prison is retribution and incapacitation. Lets not forget that.
Practically speaking thats true. But in reality they will scream that it's for rehabilitation
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: elit on November 30, 2017, 10:02:51 AM
I have a doctorate degree and you think I wasn't smart enough to know what the consequences of my actions were? With everything, it didn't deter me one bit. It was always there in the back of my mind. But sometimes people are sick and they make irrational decisions and those decisions result in going to prison. I don't think one person  who ended up in jail is ever deterred from doing the crime that they committed because of the possibility that they can go to jail at some later time.
again you are looking g at people who for whatever reason aren't deterred by the consequences but maybe there are many others that hold back from doing something because of the same consequences
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 10:04:09 AM
I don't think one person  who ended up in jail is ever deterred from doing the crime that they committed because of the possibility that they can go to jail at some later time.
I know many and I am sure others do also. If prison can deter that is a bonus.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 10:06:23 AM
again you are looking g at people who for whatever reason aren't deterred by the consequences but maybe there are many others that hold back from doing something because of the same consequences
Yes the default is always anarchy. Another fallacy. People will not commit crimes as a default if there were fewer consequences.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 10:07:36 AM
I know many and I am sure others do also. If prison can deter that is a bonus.
Huh?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 10:09:07 AM
People will not commit crimes as a default if there were fewer consequences.
Just look at the games we play here. There are certain lines many will not cross because of the consequences.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 10:10:55 AM
Huh?
I know some who went to prison and stay straight because they don't want to go back. It was a deterrent for them. This is bonus but not the main purpose for prison.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 10:11:32 AM
Just look at the games we play here. There are certain lines many will not cross because of the consequences.
You misunderstood what I said I said anyone that's inside I having already committed it.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 10:14:57 AM
You misunderstood what I said I said anyone that's inside I having already committed it.
My bad. I thought you were saying stiffer penalties won't deter crime. I will bet by you just posting your experience will get some to think twice.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on November 30, 2017, 10:18:08 AM
My bad. I thought you were saying stiffer penalties won't deter crime. I will bet by you just posting your experience will get some to think twice.
absolutely.  since last night i have been walking around with this on my mind.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 10:20:37 AM
absolutely.  since last night i have been walking around with this on my mind.
Then we finally have a JS thread that is a real benefit!!!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on November 30, 2017, 10:21:59 AM
Then we finally have a JS thread that is a real benefit!!!
lol. dont worry, its not that im doing something wrong. its just a person speaking his perspective that makes it more real
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: JoeyShmoe on November 30, 2017, 11:27:53 AM
He's making it all up just to get revenge on you. I'm just wondering why he thinks collective punishment is ok.
I know @hvaces42, and I can confirm he isn't making it up...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 30, 2017, 11:30:09 AM
I know @hvaces42, and I can confirm he isn't making it up...
This was a joke about @somethingfishy
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 11:31:06 AM
I know @hvaces42, and I can confirm he isn't making it up...
He wasn't being serious. We believe hvaces42.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: JoeyShmoe on November 30, 2017, 11:31:40 AM
This was a joke about @somethingfishy
He wasn't being serious. We believe hvaces42.
Figured, just didn't want anybody to get any ideas in their head
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on November 30, 2017, 02:36:57 PM
I think you would agree the punishment should fit the crime.
Weíre totally messed up there. Just 1 example
Person A kills somebody and is charged with 1 count (possibly even 2nd degree)
Person B signs 20 different documents (online/mail, whatever) & could be charged with 20 counts & face decades.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 02:43:31 PM
Weíre totally messed up there. Just 1 example
Person A kills somebody and is charged with 1 count (possibly even 2nd degree)
Person B signs 20 different documents (online/mail, whatever) & could be charged with 20 counts & face decades.
Common misconception. Couny total has no bearing on sentencing. Usually plead to one or two in satisfaction of the indictment.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on November 30, 2017, 02:50:10 PM
Common misconception. Couny total has no bearing on sentencing. Usually plead to one or two in satisfaction of the indictment.
But why plead to anything ?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 02:51:17 PM
But why plead to anything ?
90%+ criminal cases end in plea deals. Very few trials.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 02:53:50 PM
Weíre totally messed up there. Just 1 example
Person A kills somebody and is charged with 1 count (possibly even 2nd degree)
Person B signs 20 different documents (online/mail, whatever) & could be charged with 20 counts & face decades.
The punishment hardly ever fits the crime.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 02:54:41 PM
The punishment hardly ever fits the crime.
If the glove dont fit you must acquit.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on November 30, 2017, 02:55:34 PM
90%+ criminal cases end in plea deals. Very few trials.
Thereís a very good reason for that. NW comes to mind
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 02:59:33 PM
Thereís a very good reason for that. NW comes to mind
I don't know if they ever offered him a deal and because he went to trial he got what he got that's just how it works
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on November 30, 2017, 03:08:13 PM
I don't know if they ever offered him a deal and because he went to trial he got what he got that's just how it works
He was offered. He turned it down to fight for his innocence
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 03:10:01 PM
He was offered. He turned it down to fight for his innocence
Stupid is as stupid does. There wqs another one recently who turned down a deal and instead turned to witness tampering and now is facing way more charges.
And I knew NW personally. We did business at one point.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 03:11:06 PM
He was offered. He turned it down to fight for his innocence
Point is people plead guilty to avoid the possibility of going away for 15 years.
Everyone in jail is innocent. Didn't you know that?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on November 30, 2017, 03:12:31 PM
Stupid is as stupid does. There wqs another one recently who turned down a deal and instead turned to witness tampering and now is facing way more charges.
Point is people plead guilty to avoid the possibility of going away for 15 years.
This recent one got a lousy deal. What an idiot he is
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 03:17:59 PM
Point is people plead guilty to avoid the possibility of going away for 15 years.
This recent one got a lousy deal. What an idiot he is
Same deal as NW. 5 years. And hes guilty as sin. I know the girls he raped.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on November 30, 2017, 03:20:34 PM
Same deal as NW. 5 years. And hes guilty as sin. I know the girls he raped.
Then go testify against him
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 03:21:39 PM
Then go testify against him
There are enough witnesses...and nebech, victims.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on November 30, 2017, 03:37:43 PM
my opinion on NW: innocent until proven guilty,  not her word against mine.  verdict was based off her words which is not fair. even if he did it.  there must be proof
Then how do we ever prosecute such cases ? Thereís almost never proof
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 03:38:19 PM
my opinion on NW: innocent until proven guilty,  not her word against mine.  verdict was based off her words which is not fair. even if he did it.  there must be proof
Thankfully no one cares what your opinion is. Only the jury verdict is what matters. The sentence was draconian. But what @ChaimMoskowitz said rings true, what is the punishment for ruining someones life.

Lets be clear, on crimes involving physical harm to others I dont know what the balance should be. On white collar crimes its clear the system is broken.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 03:40:28 PM
Then how do we ever prosecute such cases ? Thereís almost never proof
I believe the standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. Which is a very high standard. And issues of credibility are left to the trier of fact, which in his case was a jury.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on November 30, 2017, 03:43:36 PM
Lets be clear, on crimes involving physical harm to others I dont know what the balance should be. On white collar crimes its clear the system is broken.
I would say even within white collar there's a big range. I don't think directly robbing someone of their life savings is the same as robbing "the system" where there's no direct & meaningful impact on any individual person. (this is a range/spectrum, not binary.)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Baruch on November 30, 2017, 03:47:34 PM
Oh shoots. Waiting for the report as well.
  Interesting to see that Lots of people are viewing this thread at the moment. Thereís something about prison that when you speak about it certain feelings come out that you donít regularly feel. Not sure exactly what it is about it. ( The shawshank redemption movie is popular for a reason.)
Maybe because it's the only thing (that on a certain level is) worse than death.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Baruch on November 30, 2017, 03:49:40 PM
So now it is our justice system fault why we have such a high crime rate?
In a certain way it is. It is a criminal training center.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 05:36:19 PM
In a certain way it is. It is a criminal training center.
So it is the justice system fault they commit the crime in the first place. Then once incarcerated they train them to be criminals? Someone forgot the pass part.  ::)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whacked1 on November 30, 2017, 06:09:23 PM
Anyone else watch youtube documentarys on rikers last night?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on November 30, 2017, 06:14:36 PM
So it is the justice system fault they commit the crime in the first place. Then once incarcerated they train them to be criminals? Someone forgot the pass part.  ::)

Man commits crime. Thatís all his fault. Gets sent to criminal training center.
Gets released from training, commits more crime and gets sent back for more crime training.

Prison should focus on reducing repeat offenders, not train them.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 30, 2017, 06:19:34 PM
What's NW?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on November 30, 2017, 06:25:14 PM
What's NW?
something you want to keep far away from your daughters (https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji85.png)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dawie on November 30, 2017, 06:33:09 PM
What's NW?
who is NW? FTFY
something you want to keep far away from your daughters (https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji85.png)
seeing that he ain't seeing the light of day for 103 years....
you 'd want to fix that to "and his ilk"
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 06:40:12 PM
Anyone else watch youtube documentarys on rikers last night?
I replayed some nightmares instead. Whatever puff piece you watch, whether it be lockdown or some other documentary is so far removed from reality its sad. They sterilize it to make it palatable for consumption.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on November 30, 2017, 06:43:54 PM
who is NW? FTFYseeing that he ain't seeing the light of day for 103 years....
you 'd want to fix that to "and his ilk"
Rumor has it that there's zero tolerance for people convicted for such crimes by other inmates, resulting in reduced life expectancy.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 06:46:30 PM
Rumor has it that there's zero tolerance for people convicted for such crimes by other inmates, resulting in reduced life expectancy.
Another fallacy. He ia bunking with another jewish pedophile in a prison designed to house and treat predators.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 30, 2017, 07:01:15 PM
Who??
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 07:02:26 PM
Who??
NW
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on November 30, 2017, 07:14:45 PM
NW

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-newyork-hasidic-abuse/hasidic-therapist-gets-103-years-in-prison-for-sex-abuse-idUSBRE90L0X420130122
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on November 30, 2017, 07:18:42 PM
Another fallacy. He ia bunking with another jewish pedophile in a prison designed to house and treat predators.
קשיא רישא אסיפא
That they need a special prison for these guys instead of putting them in gen pop seems to say it's no fallacy.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 07:20:27 PM
קשיא רישא אסיפא
That they need a special prison for these guys instead of putting them in gen pop seems to say it's no fallacy.
Its for treatment purposes not their safety.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on November 30, 2017, 07:25:41 PM
Its for treatment purposes not their safety.
I can think of a far quicker, cheaper and more effective treatment. :)

Guaranteed to last a lifetime.

All it takes is one quick cut.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 07:30:29 PM
I can think of a far quicker, cheaper and more effective treatment. :)

Guaranteed to last a lifetime.

All it takes is one quick cut.
Cruel and unusual punishment
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on November 30, 2017, 07:34:19 PM
Cruel and unusual punishment
Didn't we already establish upthread that right only applies to humans? (https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji87.png)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: shlonx on November 30, 2017, 07:42:24 PM
This is one of the most fascinating and enlightening threads I have ever read. Thanks @hvaces42 for sharing.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 08:02:37 PM
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-newyork-hasidic-abuse/hasidic-therapist-gets-103-years-in-prison-for-sex-abuse-idUSBRE90L0X420130122
How do you repay a life you destroy?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 08:08:10 PM
Repost
Thankfully no one cares what your opinion is. Only the jury verdict is what matters. The sentence was draconian. But what @ChaimMoskowitz said rings true, what is the punishment for ruining someones life.

Lets be clear, on crimes involving physical harm to others I dont know what the balance should be. On white collar crimes its clear the system is broken.
;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 08:10:37 PM
Repost
Sometimes you need to drive the point home.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on November 30, 2017, 08:51:22 PM
I can think of a far quicker, cheaper and more effective treatment. :)

Guaranteed to last a lifetime.

All it takes is one quick cut.
You remind me of Bob Grant. Though IINM he used to advocate that for all criminals.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on November 30, 2017, 08:54:16 PM
Another fallacy. He ia bunking with another jewish pedophile in a prison designed to house and treat predators.
I don't know about NW, but I've definitely heard of cases of child abusers/molesters who came out of jail with a sheet over their face. An extreme example is Jeffrey Dahmer. It is said that child abusers/molesters who are incarcerated face the real criminal justice system.

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 09:08:45 PM
I don't know about NW, but I've definitely heard of cases of child abusers/molesters who came out of jail with a sheet over their face. An extreme example is Jeffrey Dahmer. It is said that child abusers/molesters who are incarcerated face the real criminal justice system.
Dahmer was a serial killer. He started up with the wrong person. Thats just plain jailhouse violence.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 30, 2017, 09:11:46 PM
Dahmer was a serial killer. He started up with the wrong person. Thats just plain jailhouse justice violence.
:-X
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on November 30, 2017, 09:13:56 PM
:-X
My mistake. I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 01, 2017, 12:34:59 AM
Common misconception. Couny total has no bearing on sentencing. Usually plead to one or two in satisfaction of the indictment.
The longest sentence in history was given to someone who it was illegal to give a life sentence too.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yhaller14 on December 01, 2017, 12:42:46 AM
My mistake. I stand corrected.
When are we gonna hear the story of y you went?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on December 01, 2017, 12:50:35 AM
When are we gonna hear the story of y you went?
He made a booboo.

But seriously, i don't think it's fair to ask him this.

I think asking for a full TR of the incarceration itself is fair game but as far as the events leading up to it, I imagine he's not proud of whatever it was and unless he volunteers to talk about I don't think the matter should be pressed.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 12:57:21 AM
He made a booboo.

But seriously, i don't think it's fair to ask him this.

I think asking for a full TR of the incarceration itself is fair game but as far as the events leading up to it, I imagine he's not proud of whatever it was and unless he volunteers to talk about I don't think the matter should be pressed.
When are we gonna hear the story of y you went?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 01, 2017, 01:04:53 AM
You are clearly someone that is ďrehabilitatedĒ. Is the reason you volunteer for Hatzola your way of giving back?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 01, 2017, 01:23:58 AM
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/cca-private-prisons-corrections-corporation-inmates-investigation-bauer/

I read this a while ago. Found it to be a fascinating read into the mindset of how quickly people can mentally human life as automatically worth respecting. I think it as worthwhile to read as The Wave.

Quite a read.  Just finished it.  I don't know how a moral society can allow this.  Far more important than tax reform, ACA repeal, or anything else for that matter is prison reform.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Something Fishy on December 01, 2017, 01:27:08 AM
He made a booboo.

But seriously, i don't think it's fair to ask him this.

I think asking for a full TR of the incarceration itself is fair game but as far as the events leading up to it, I imagine he's not proud of whatever it was and unless he volunteers to talk about I don't think the matter should be pressed.

+100, well said.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 09:45:58 AM
You are clearly someone that is ďrehabilitatedĒ. Is the reason you volunteer for Hatzola your way of giving back?
No
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 10:02:15 AM
I've been toying with how to go about doing this. If you've read some of my posts in other threads there are hints of how I ended up at Rikers. 

Part of my hesitation to share relates to one individual here who at one point tried to use my story to threaten me (i.e. he threatened to post details, which are readily available online, but nonetheless embarrassing) because he disagreed with my opinions.

I'm in a better place now where I no longer fear the truth that is my story being leaked. There is much to be learned from my experience, besides the TR that I've been asked to write.

There are others here (at least one that I know about) who have been to prison. Their incarceration was longer than mine, from what I gather. Their experiences and recovery from those experiences are different than mine. So what I share is very personal and my own experience only. If you've had your own experience there is no use in trying to compare.

I dont know how long it will take me to share my story. But I figured its friday at least let me tease it a bit... 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 01, 2017, 10:05:27 AM
Part of my hesitation to share relates to one individual here who at one point tried to use my story to threaten me (i.e. he threatened to post details, which are readily available online, but nonetheless embarrassing) because he disagreed with my opinions.

That is horrible! To explicitly taunt someone who did teshuva, which seems very clear in your case, over his past actions is the epitome of ona'as devorim and beyond the pale.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 10:10:05 AM
That is horrible!
Let me say this...I know who he works for and if his superiors found out he did that in all likelihood he would be unemployed and likely unemployable. But hes young, cocky, has exactly the same ego and hubris I had at that age and in that professiom. All I know is it is exactly those traits that got me in trouble. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 01, 2017, 10:11:42 AM
I've been toying with how to go about doing this. If you've read some of my posts in other threads there are hints of how I ended up at Rikers. 

Part of my hesitation to share relates to one individual here who at one point tried to use my story to threaten me (i.e. he threatened to post details, which are readily available online, but nonetheless embarrassing) because he disagreed with my opinions.

I'm in a better place now where I no longer fear the truth that is my story being leaked. There is much to be learned from my experience, besides the TR that I've been asked to write.

There are others here (at least one that I know about) who have been to prison. Their incarceration was longer than mine, from what I gather. Their experiences and recovery from those experiences are different than mine. So what I share is very personal and my own experience only. If you've had your own experience there is no use in trying to compare.

I dont know how long it will take me to share my story. But I figured its friday at least let me tease it a bit...

Please report to mods, and Dan, PLEASE ban him.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 01, 2017, 10:16:52 AM
Please report to mods, and Dan, PLEASE ban him.
We don't want an evil person in our midst. Who knows who he will threaten next.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 10:17:27 AM
Please report to mods, and Dan, PLEASE ban him.
Lesson number 1...

Prison should not be about revenge. It was dealt with. He is still a member here and I hope he learned his lesson. I dont think he thought it through and/or realized that I could have ruined his career.

Lesson number 2...

People make mistakes and should be given a chance to correct them. In the frum community particularly, the acceptance of ones teshuva is rare. There are no second chances. The stigma that is created from messing up and continued even after someone does everything in their power to correct the wrong they did, is pathetic.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 10:19:47 AM
That is horrible! To explicitly taunt someone who did teshuva, which seems very clear in your case, over his past actions is the epitome of ona'as devorim and beyond the pale.
Teshuva is a work in progress. My view is yesh din v'yesh dayan. Mods are not the be all and end all. Sorry @Dan etc.  ;D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 10:26:14 AM
Let me start by saying this. I did not wake up one morning and decide that today I was going to commit the crime that I committed. It was a slow descent into moral corruption that came from a place that I am still exploring.

I had as regular an upbringing, in a frum household, as can be expected. Went to yeshiva. Never had any real issues. Was an average student. Left yeshiva after 3 years in Bais Midrash and got married. Went to work and to college at night. Graduated college with an accounting degree, but worked in the legal field throughout. Went to Law school and was an average student.   
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 01, 2017, 10:31:55 AM
Now im intrigued
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 01, 2017, 10:33:06 AM
IMHO you really donít need to do this.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 10:36:46 AM
IMHO you really donít need to do this.


There are others here (at least one that I know about) who have been to prison. Their incarceration was longer than mine, from what I gather. Their experiences and recovery from those experiences are different than mine. So what I share is very personal and my own experience only. If you've had your own experience there is no use in trying to compare.


If one person can gain some insight and take something out of it then it is worth it. I do not hide anymore. "Fear of people will leave you." is one of the promises that I subscribe to.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 01, 2017, 10:39:36 AM
Your views are very well known. Anyone should be able to put the pieces together.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 01, 2017, 10:39:49 AM
Life is a work in progress. My view is yesh din v'yesh dayan. Mods are not the be all and end all. Sorry @Dan etc.  ;D
FTFY. I have been, maybe uncharacteristically, silent through this thread since I simply have no words to describe how horrified I am about how you are describing what you went through. That after all that you can write
Im not sorry. I needed to go through it to get to where i am today.
is truly amazing!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 10:44:25 AM
Your views are very well known. Anyone should be able to put the pieces together.
Not everyone is as bright as you. Some people need it spelled out.

If I am I making someone uneasy, I dont mean you specifically, the account setting can be modified to block this thread.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 01, 2017, 10:50:16 AM
Please report to mods, and Dan, PLEASE ban him.
Brings to mind:

(https://i.imgur.com/pJ0bEcK.png)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 01, 2017, 10:50:45 AM
This will be used against you by some here. Your experience is the important part not what you went there for.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 10:57:44 AM
This will be used against you by some here. Your experience is the important part not what you went there for.
First of all the guy who used it already didnt even get to the criminal part of it. He only threatened with the public records of civil matters. You cant find my criminal stuff without much effort. Third, last I heard blackmail is illegal. Finally, I can always leave and I'm sure the Mods will delete if asked.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on December 01, 2017, 11:00:24 AM
You still have dealings with this guy ?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 11:01:51 AM
You still have dealings with this guy ?
With the  guy who threatened? No. He didnt post much in a while. Saw he posted this week. But we havent had dealings since. This was a while back.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 01, 2017, 11:02:51 AM
First of all the guy who used it already didnt even get to the criminal part of it. He only threatened with the public records of civil matters. You cant find my criminal stuff without much effort. Third, last I heard blackmail is illegal. Finally, I can always leave and I'm sure the Mods will delete if asked.
Not so simple.

Someone I know was being seriously threatened with blackmail by someone else I know. I called up an old classmate of mine who works in the DA office to discuss the options. What I learned from him was extremely discomforting. It sounded like it's virtually impossible to indict, let alone convict, someone on blackmail charges. It ain't fair, but that's the world we live in.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 11:08:03 AM
Not so simple.

Someone I know was being seriously threatened with blackmail by someone else I know. I called up an old classmate of mine who works in the DA office to discuss the options. What I learned from him was extremely discomforting. It sounded like it's virtually impossible to indict, let alone convict, someone on blackmail charges. It ain't fair, but that's the world we live in.
Again, you cant blackmail me. My story is public.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 01, 2017, 11:09:18 AM
First of all the guy who used it already didnt even get to the criminal part of it. He only threatened with the public records of civil matters. You cant find my criminal stuff without much effort. Third, last I heard blackmail is illegal. Finally, I can always leave and I'm sure the Mods will delete if asked.
All I meant it can be used to discrete your views. You know how these things go when we have strong views on both sides. Not used as blackmail or anything like that. The little I know about you I would bet the house that would never work anyway.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 01, 2017, 11:10:12 AM
Since it is Friday I would rather hear about the guy who tried to use it against you.  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 11:14:12 AM
All I meant it can be used to discrete your views. You know how these things go when we have strong views on both sides. Not used as blackmail or anything like that. The little I know about you I would bet the house that would never work anyway.
And therein lies the rub... ;D I wouldnt bet for anything. Cant fix the problem with what caused it.

A smart person once told me: "What you think about me is none of my business." Discredit my views, go right ahead. Its still a free country last time I checked. I have strong views only because of my experiences.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 11:15:07 AM
Since it is Friday I would rather hear about the guy who tried to use it against you.  :)
It has been forgiven, but not forgotten. I wont be sharing that. Sorry to disappoint. You can remove it from PC thread now.  ;D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 01, 2017, 11:17:12 AM
And therein lies the rub... ;D
Sorry, brain freeze.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: daybyday on December 01, 2017, 12:35:27 PM
It has been forgiven, but not forgotten. I wont be sharing that. Sorry to disappoint. You can remove it from PC thread now.  ;D

All i can say is i been reading through your responses, and it is obvious that your life experience had humbled you. I don't judge.

 I personally don't do any shticks because that is my life situation. If the option had come smacking in my face when i was younger i would likely had fallen as well. Being in my late 30s i can say that now i would be much less likely to make the wrong legal choices. Sadly many people get hit with the ניסיון much earlier in life when they are not mentally mature enough to resist the temptation.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 01, 2017, 01:16:45 PM
If one person can gain some insight and take something out of it then it is worth it.
+1.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 01:17:49 PM
+1.
Post in JS dont count towards post count  ;D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 01, 2017, 01:18:50 PM
Post in JS dont count towards post count  ;D
You should consider it an honor when he posts in JS.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 01:19:56 PM
You should consider it an honor when he posts in JS.
I get butterflies when I get notification that Dan posted in response to my post.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 01, 2017, 01:22:11 PM
I get butterflies when I get notification that Dan posted in response to my post.
Just think how you feel when he answers a PM!!!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
Just think how you feel when he answers a PM!!!
Never happened...yet
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 01, 2017, 01:29:24 PM
Never happened...yet
Good things come to those that wait.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 02:29:17 PM
Before I proceed, whatever crimes I may mention here are beyond their statute of limitations or have already been prosecuted. So I am aware of the consequences.

Graduating from Law School I started working for a small firm. I left after 9 months to start my own practice. I was very successful. In 2007 I saw the real estate market (and my business) slow down significantly. In looking for new revenue streams I found day trading in stock and options market with its unbelievable volatility. With millions of dollars sitting flowing through my escrow accounts it was easy to "borrow" from my clients without their knowledge to play the market. That was the beginning of the end.

On Day 1 I made 5 figures. On Day 2 I lost 6 figures. It was a chase to recoup my losses from that day forward. It was that simple. Yes, I thought I could "borrow" (read:steal temporarily and replace later) and not get caught. Day 1 gave me the taste of easy money. Day 2 gave me the need to chase replace. Whether it was a desire for financial stability or just more money, I will never know and it doesnt make a difference, as long as I never repeat the same behavior.

"Playing" the stock market is gambling. Legal as it may be, it is the same as putting a bet on a horse, bet on a sports game, bet on the outcome of a hand of cards, throw of a die or spin of a wheel. All those are legal in certain places. So I became an addict without knowing it.

Every moment of every day was spent raising money in trying to recoup those losses and when I did win big then it was spent seeking to replicate those wins to make more money then I needed. It was a chase up and a chase down. Along the way stealing became second nature. As long as my clients got their money when they needed it hey didnt know where it came from or that it came at the expense of other clients. 

At some point in 2009 the real estate market dried up totally and I resorted to borrowing from people to replace the stolen monies. In the summer of 2010 I was only down 5 figures overall. All I had to do was stop right then and there and I would have been ok. Instead I was in the options market every day. I played the monthly options as well as the weekly options. One fine day I awoke to a $300k gain on a $10k bet. That was the end of me.

All I needed to do was stop. I just couldnt. My addiction was so strong that it convinced me that I could replicate that win. In chasing that dreamI lost $1MM in less than 10 days, including over $600k of my clients money which i had misappropriated from the sale of his building and which he had entrusted me to hold until he needed it for further projects.

Thats enough to chew before shabbos.  TR starts next week.       
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 01, 2017, 02:33:28 PM

My oh my oh my!!!!! What a start.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 01, 2017, 02:35:12 PM
Wow. Just wow.
That is one scary and dark path to go down.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 02:49:43 PM
Wow. Just wow.
That is one scary and dark path to go down.
Sharing my experience will hopefully help someone who is suffering in silence. There are many out there.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 01, 2017, 02:50:16 PM
Wow. Just wow.
That is one scary and dark path to go down.
As he said this is pure gambling. I am not going to say it can happen to anyone but it can happen to many. No need for my story now.  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 01, 2017, 02:50:40 PM
Sharing my experience will hopefully help someone who is suffering in silence. There are many out there.
+1000
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 03:00:38 PM
As he said this is pure gambling. I am not going to say it can happen to anyone but it can happen to many. No need for my story now.  :)
There is always a use for more stories. War stories which can teach people criminal behavior IMHO have no place. But stories of suffering and triumph over addiction, I cannot see the harm

Most people dont see it as gambling because its legalized and regulated. Its also a mainstream activity of normal people. How many Wall Street types do any of us know?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 01, 2017, 03:03:02 PM
I am the exception to the rule. My story would get others to think "see everything worked out OK".
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 03:05:49 PM
I am the exception to the rule. My story would get others to think "see everything worked out OK".
It wasnt CM who did all that. It was one of your other alter egos. You have the luxury of multiple personality disorder that i dont have.  ;D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 01, 2017, 03:11:02 PM
We need to hear @JTZ story.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 03:18:25 PM
We need to hear @JTZ story.
Maybe someone can convince him to tell it.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 01, 2017, 03:24:11 PM
Why didn't you go to otisvil where I hear the have minyonim and a kaveh shteeble?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 03:37:49 PM
Why didn't you go to otisvil where I hear the have minyonim and a kaveh shteeble?
All depends who prosecutes. Federal or state. There is a state prison in Otisville too.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: jackofall on December 01, 2017, 03:43:35 PM
Following closely.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 03:44:46 PM
Following closely.
Tailgating is illegal... ;D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: jackofall on December 01, 2017, 03:45:41 PM
Tailgating is illegal... ;D
Sorry I canít miss any of this. ;)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 01, 2017, 03:48:57 PM
Sorry I canít miss any of this. ;)
All the cards are on the table and the lights will be going off shortly.  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 01, 2017, 03:51:07 PM
Lights are out
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 01, 2017, 04:02:59 PM
GS to all!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 02, 2017, 07:47:11 PM
Most people dont see it as gambling because its legalized and regulated. Its also a mainstream activity of normal people. How many Wall Street types do any of us know?
The problem is that the lines are blurred, giving people the excuse that using trading certain instruments doesn't constitutite gambling, when it definitely does.

While traditional options can serve (and were originally designed to provide) legitimate hedging (insurance) purposes, binary options are pure gambling.

Then there's the gray area of stock trading (not day trading), for some pros it's a legitimate trade, but for many others it's just another form of betting (though not as intense as day trading).
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 02, 2017, 08:09:02 PM
The problem is that the lines are blurred, giving people the excuse that using trading certain instruments doesn't constitutite gambling, when it definitely does.

While traditional options can serve (and were originally designed to provide) legitimate hedging (insurance) purposes, binary options are pure gambling.

Then there's the gray area of stock trading (not day trading), for some pros it's a legitimate trade, but for many others it's just another form of betting (though not as intense as day trading).
Day trading is pure gambling in my professional opinion. (Unless done by leveraging automatic trading)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 02, 2017, 09:28:29 PM
@hvaces24 Can we ask questions?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 02, 2017, 09:29:31 PM
@hvaces24 Can we ask questions?
You can ask, I reserve the right not to answer.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 02, 2017, 09:38:37 PM
The problem is that the lines are blurred, giving people the excuse that using trading certain instruments doesn't constitutite gambling, when it definitely does.

While traditional options can serve (and were originally designed to provide) legitimate hedging (insurance) purposes, binary options are pure gambling.

Then there's the gray area of stock trading (not day trading), for some pros it's a legitimate trade, but for many others it's just another form of betting (though not as intense as day trading).
Binary options issued by FINRA licensed firms may are pure gambling. All others are outright scams. I havent been in the stock market for 7 years so I dont know if there are legitimate binary options platforms. All those I've seen advertised on the frum websites are outright scams to steal your money.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 02, 2017, 10:11:31 PM
just wonder if OP thought this thread would go to where it is now....
@hvaces42  thanx for sharing . seems like most people here are like me and are walking away inspired by you
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 02, 2017, 10:13:02 PM
just wonder if OP thought this thread would go to where it is now....
@hvaces42  thanx for sharing . seems like most people here are like me and are walking away inspired by you
Doubt he did. And I haven't even gotten to any of the inspirational parts yet. There is still some real darkness...

Appreciate the support though. This aint easy and many have been trying to dissuade me. i've been here long enough that I think its time for me to share. I see the comments in other threads about related topics and I cannot stand by.   
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Yikes2179 on December 02, 2017, 10:47:52 PM


@hvaces42  thanx for sharing . seems like most people here are like me and are walking away inspired by you


+1
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mikeoracle on December 02, 2017, 11:15:41 PM
+1, thanks for being brave enough to share. I for one am inspired, and look forward to the rest of what you are willing to share.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ludmila on December 03, 2017, 01:58:33 AM
Day trading is pure gambling in my professional opinion. (Unless done by leveraging automatic trading)
Not to all, there are some off floor traders who succeeded big time on short term trading, but these are professionals who developed their own methods, are very well disciplined and do not let emotions or ego get in the way. Eg. of these were featured in the Market Wizards and New Market Wizards top seller books in the nineties, Victor Sperandeo , Linda Radford, Tony Saliba, Marty Schwartz and a few more.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: User6669 on December 03, 2017, 04:27:37 AM
Just visiting.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 03, 2017, 07:01:44 AM
Day trading is pure gambling in my professional opinion. (Unless done by leveraging automatic trading)

What about automatic trading makes it less like pure gambling that can't be replicated manually?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 03, 2017, 07:02:23 AM
Binary options issued by FINRA licensed firms may are pure gambling. All others are outright scams. I havent been in the stock market for 7 years so I dont know if there are legitimate binary options platforms. All those I've seen advertised on the frum websites are outright scams to steal your money.

You were trading binary options?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 07:17:38 AM
You were trading binary options?
Thankfully no. The real binaries were only available to institutions not regular Joes. Fake binary trading is less than 10 years old.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 03, 2017, 07:31:34 AM
What about automatic trading makes it less like pure gambling that can't be replicated manually?
I'm talking about the funds that make thousands of trades a day leveraging speed of their systems as their advantage...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 03, 2017, 07:37:40 AM
I'm talking about the funds that make thousands of trades a day leveraging speed of their systems as their advantage...

Ok.  There is another whole world of technical trading.  There are patterns on which rule sets can be based and those rules can be back tested and tweeked until they are as reliable or more reliable as any business strategy.  The key is keeping emotions at bay and following the rules, as @ludmila metioned above.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: moko on December 03, 2017, 07:43:16 AM
There are patterns on which rule sets can be based and those rules can be back tested and tweeked until they are as reliable or more reliable as any business strategy.  The key is keeping emotions at bay and following the rules, as @ludmila metioned above.
there are patterns in every form of gambling. No such thing as random.
Just gotta keep the emotions at bay  while in Vegas....
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 03, 2017, 07:45:31 AM
there are patterns in every form of gambling. No such thing as random.
Just gotta keep the emotions at bay  while in Vegas....
Ok.  There is another whole world of technical trading.  There are patterns on which rule sets can be based and those rules can be back tested and tweeked until they are as reliable or more reliable as any business strategy. The key is keeping emotions at bay and following the rules, as @ludmila metioned above.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 07:50:20 AM
there are patterns in every form of gambling. No such thing as random.
Just gotta keep the emotions at bay  while in Vegas....
Yes there are. And the casinos spend millions to tweak them and take your money.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 03, 2017, 07:53:43 AM
Yes there are. And the casinos spend millions to tweak them and take your money.
If i may ask, Casinos were part of the issues? 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: moko on December 03, 2017, 07:57:44 AM
Yes there are. And the casinos spend millions to tweak them and take your money.
I guess I should have been more clear with sarcasm...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 08:06:04 AM
I guess I should have been more clear with sarcasm...
Oh it was clear.
If i may ask, Casinos were part of the issues? 
Peripheral at best
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: sillypainter on December 03, 2017, 09:51:21 AM
Thanks for finally sharing your story. Always good to hear stories like this so we remember to not skip. We are all humans and it could happen to anybody, especially when you want to provide income stability to your family.

I always thought only state crimes go to Rikers.

It looks to me like you did only aonth in prison, which I can imagine is hell, even one day can be hell. Did that person forgive you so the judge ordered a small term? Were you out on bail during the trial? Was that one month a sentenced month?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 03, 2017, 09:51:52 AM
The person who sent me to jail had every right to do so. however as his Rabbi told him he should not have been the messenger to do so even though I deserved it.
So your clients were Jewish, I'm assuming.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 10:24:43 AM
So your clients were Jewish, I'm assuming.
Some yes.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 10:30:57 AM
Thanks for finally sharing your story. Always good to hear stories like this so we remember to not skip. We are all humans and it could happen to anybody, especially when you want to provide income stability to your family.

I always thought only state crimes go to Rikers.

It looks to me like you did only aonth in prison, which I can imagine is hell, even one day can be hell. Did that person forgive you so the judge ordered a small term? Were you out on bail during the trial? Was that one month a sentenced month?
34 days and it was not a sentence. It was a remand. I will explain when i write the next segment.

Rikers is a holding jail for state criminals charged in NYC by the county DAs or the Attorney General who brings charges in NYC courts. It is also a jail that holds sentenced inmates who are sentenced for misdemeanors and felonies where the sentence is 1 year or less. Longer sentences get sent upstate but always transit through Rikers if the court that was sentencing is in NYC. 

You are correct. It was hell. The ratio ive heard is that its equivalent to several years in Federal prison.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 03, 2017, 10:53:01 AM
Ok.  There is another whole world of technical trading.  There are patterns on which rule sets can be based and those rules can be back tested and tweeked until they are as reliable or more reliable as any business strategy.  The key is keeping emotions at bay and following the rules, as @ludmila metioned above.
Back testing proves very little. In a 100% random market you will be able to back test enough to find a few methods which supposedly worked even though there having done so was purely random. If you back test enough you should be able to find some pattern to picking winning lottery numbers as well. You may even find a few people who were able to do it successfully and win enough smaller prizes to have been profitable. You may find that with rolling dice as well. Even the ones @ludmila mentioned had
developed their own methods
Once a method,if one exists, becomes publicly known it will stop working. Een with purely random results you will have a percentage who are wildly successful. For every one referred to by @ludmila there are hundreds, possibly thousands, who were unsuccessful.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 03, 2017, 11:20:46 AM
Back testing proves very little. In a 100% random market you will be able to back test enough to find a few methods which supposedly worked even though there having done so was purely random. If you back test enough you should be able to find some pattern to picking winning lottery numbers as well. You may even find a few people who were able to do it successfully and win enough smaller prizes to have been profitable. You may find that with rolling dice as well. Even the ones @ludmila mentioned had Once a method,if one exists, becomes publicly known it will stop working. Een with purely random results you will have a percentage who are wildly successful. For every one referred to by @ludmila there are hundreds, possibly thousands, who were unsuccessful.
The theory is that the market is not 100% random. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 11:56:32 AM
The theory is that the market is not 100% random.
It isnt random at all. It is rigged. I love how desktop day traders using platforms like TD or ETrade think they can outsmart Goldman Sachs algorithms that are designed to analyze millioms of datapoints and execute trades when they detect minute anomalies. You cant beat them.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 03, 2017, 12:02:28 PM
It isnt random at all. It is rigged. I love how desktop day traders using platforms like TD or ETrade think they can outsmart Goldman Sachs algorithms that are designed to analyze millioms of datapoints and execute trades when they detect minute anomalies. You cant beat them.
+1000
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 03, 2017, 12:28:04 PM
The theory is that the market is not 100% random. 
Maybe it is maybe it isn't, but to think that you can find the way to beat it by reading a book or being trained in some trading system is ridiculous. Pure randomness will include some random success stories. Even if on some level it is not purely random, and considering that it has humans involved it probably isn't, the idea that the system can be beaten by checking some publicly available charts and simple back testing is ridiculous. The Graham market theory of trading short term volatility for long term gains makes sense and is not "beating the system" but being paid for a constructive part in the system. Day trading is not that.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: moko on December 03, 2017, 12:48:04 PM
Maybe it is maybe it isn't, but to think that you can find the way to beat it by reading a book or being trained in some trading system is ridiculous. Pure randomness will include some random success stories. Even if on some level it is not purely random, and considering that it has humans involved it probably isn't, the idea that the system can be beaten by checking some publicly available charts and simple back testing is ridiculous. The Graham market theory of trading short term volatility for long term gains makes sense and is not "beating the system" but being paid for a constructive part in the system. Day trading is not that.
But Online Trading Academy promised...........
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 03, 2017, 12:57:03 PM
It isnt random at all. It is rigged. I love how desktop day traders using platforms like TD or ETrade think they can outsmart Goldman Sachs algorithms that are designed to analyze millioms of datapoints and execute trades when they detect minute anomalies. You cant beat them.
I don't day trade or use TD or Etrade.  I don't use technical analysis except in support of other strategies.  But many do successfully. 

There are two sides to the HFT debate but neither claims that HFT moves markets significantly. Every opinion brought here (https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-does-high-frequency-trading-affect-individual-investors-1408454495) says affects of HFT on average investors is negligible except for one which I didn't manage to understand.

GS algorithms can't move the market significantly without awakening unwanted SEC scrutiny. Patterns can predict large moves that can be played by an average investor. 

To say that the market is rigged is a gross over simplification that is mostly false.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 03, 2017, 01:03:47 PM
Maybe it is maybe it isn't, but to think that you can find the way to beat it by reading a book or being trained in some trading system is ridiculous. Pure randomness will include some random success stories. Even if on some level it is not purely random, and considering that it has humans involved it probably isn't, the idea that the system can be beaten by checking some publicly available charts and simple back testing is ridiculous. The Graham market theory of trading short term volatility for long term gains makes sense and is not "beating the system" but being paid for a constructive part in the system. Day trading is not that.

I at no point advocated for day trading.  I don't know what it means to beat the market or the system. Every transaction has two sides, and a winner and a loser.  Price moves are definitely not pure randomness but rather respond to various market forces and while there is certainly some randomness short term, the longer term you go, the randomness decreases.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 01:04:12 PM
I don't day trade or use TD or Etrade.  I don't use technical analysis except in support of other strategies.  But many do successfully. 

There are two sides to the HFT debate but neither claims that HFT moves markets significantly. Every opinion brought here (https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-does-high-frequency-trading-affect-individual-investors-1408454495) says affects of HFT on average investors is negligible except for one which I didn't manage to understand.

GS algorithms can't move the market significantly without awakening unwanted SEC scrutiny. Patterns can predict large moves that can be played by an average investor. 

To say that the market is rigged is a gross over simplification that is mostly false.
You seem to have bought in hook line and sinker. HFT + Market Maker + fractional share pricing = undetectable frontrunning. Thats where its rigged.
Also the fact that no one on wall street went to jail because of the financial crisis leads me to believe that there is something up..
 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 03, 2017, 01:06:31 PM
I don't day trade or use TD or Etrade.  I don't use technical analysis except in support of other strategies.  But many do successfully. 
..............
Patterns can predict large moves that can be played by an average investor. 
For every one that is successful there are hundreds or more who are unsuccessful. DOes that show that they are better or that they randomly hit success?

Almost all of the popular patterns have been thoroughly disproven. Maybe they did work once and maybe there are some which still do, but the stock market is efficient enough to destroy them as soon as they are well known.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 03, 2017, 01:08:33 PM
I at no point advocated for day trading.  I don't know what it means to beat the market or the system. Every transaction has two sides, and a winner and a loser.  Price moves are definitely not pure randomness but rather respond to various market forces and while there is certainly some randomness short term, the longer term you go, the randomness decreases.
This I agree to. Long term gains for short term volatility.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: pixi on December 03, 2017, 01:13:11 PM
It isnt random at all. It is rigged. I love how desktop day traders using platforms like TD or ETrade think they can outsmart Goldman Sachs algorithms that are designed to analyze millioms of datapoints and execute trades when they detect minute anomalies. You cant beat them.
if you can't beat them, join them.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 03, 2017, 01:15:21 PM
You seem to have bought in hook line and sinker. HFT + Market Maker + fractional share pricing = undetectable frontrunning. Thats where its rigged.
For someone trying to make money of $0.01 moves, the market is rigged.  For most people, for whom a $0.01 move is mostly inconsequential,  the market is mostly not rigged.
Quote
Also the fact that no one on wall street went to jail because of the financial crisis leads me to believe that there is something up..

That's the criminal justice system that's rigged, not the market.  And that brings the thread back on topic  ;D 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 03, 2017, 01:16:26 PM
if you can't beat them, join them.
How?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: pixi on December 03, 2017, 01:18:20 PM
How?
Learn how  institutional traders trade the market.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 01:20:17 PM
For someone trying to make money of $0.01 moves, the market is rigged.  For most people, for whom a $0.01 move is mostly inconsequential,  the market is mostly not rigged.

That's the criminal justice system that's rigged, not the market.  And that brings the thread back on topic  ;D
You obviously are not a day trader.

And thanks but you're wrong on that count too. Washington needed to keep market afloat. Thats why they saved some institutions and let others fail. Read some of Neil Barofskys writings. This is a guy who was at the Fed amd is disgusted by the corruption and old boys club.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 01:20:48 PM
Learn how  institutional traders trade the market.
They don't trade the market they make the market
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 03, 2017, 01:20:59 PM
Learn how  institutional traders trade the market.

They build special private fiber-optic networks to transmit market data quicker than you can. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 03, 2017, 01:21:42 PM
Learn how  institutional traders trade the market.

THe individual does not have the resources to do the HFT described.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 03, 2017, 01:25:55 PM
You obviously are not a day trader.

And thanks but you're wrong on that count too. Washington needed to keep market afloat. Thats why they saved some institutions and let others fail. Read some of Neil Barofskys writings. This is a guy who was at the Fed amd is disgusted by the corruption and old boys club.

I never claimed to be a day trader.

I don't know the details of what you are referring to but I know the Long Term Capital story pretty well.  I will google Neil Barofsky.  But I still don't think that selective bailouts make day to day trading for average investors rigged.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 03, 2017, 01:29:36 PM
THe individual does not have the resources to do the HFT described.
Actually they do.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 01:35:02 PM
I never claimed to be a day trader.

I don't know the details of what you are referring to but I know the Long Term Capital story pretty well.  I will google Neil Barofsky.  But I still don't think that selective bailouts make day to day trading for average investors rigged.
I hate war stories but here you go.
Thornburg mortgage I was either going to get a capital infusion on a Friday morning or they would go belly-up. I bought 20,000 shares on a Thursday afternoon at a dollar 12 a piece. They got their funding Friday morning pre-market and I sold out at around $2 hours. By the time the market opened they were below the dollar 12 and they went bankrupt shortly thereafter. The volatility was great however the rigging of the high frequency trading during that period made the volatility even worse and impossible to get a gauge on. There for anyone who didn't trade those shares pre-market lost their pants
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 03, 2017, 01:47:27 PM
I hate war stories but here you go.
Thornburg mortgage I was either going to get a capital infusion on a Friday morning or they would go belly-up. I bought 20,000 shares on a Thursday afternoon at a dollar 12 a piece. They got their funding Friday morning pre-market and I sold out at around $2 hours. By the time the market opened they were below the dollar 12 and they went bankrupt shortly thereafter. The volatility was great however the rigging of the high frequency trading during that period made the volatility even worse and impossible to get a gauge on. There for anyone who didn't trade those shares pre-market lost their pants

What happened to there funding?  Anyone who traded the premarket  under such conditions should have made peace with the possibilty of lossing all. Your trade was also a pure gamble. What I'm confused about is that your gamble turned out to be the right call.  It would seem that the  main reason people lost money was because the assumed the funding would prevent bankruptcy, which it did not.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 03, 2017, 02:51:15 PM
And now this thread is like all others
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 02:53:09 PM
And now this thread is like all others
Its inevitable. Will try to get it back on track a bit later. There are so many moving parts here that its bound to be derailed a bit here an there.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 03, 2017, 03:03:15 PM
That's the criminal justice system that's rigged, not the market.  And that brings the thread back on topic  ;D

I tried
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: miles lover on December 03, 2017, 03:06:03 PM


You are correct. It was hell. The ratio ive heard is that its equivalent to several years in Federal prison.
  Itís not possible for a month long sentence to be equivalent to several years unless the person has no life and to him a reg prison is not much of a downgrade from his free life. I mean as bad as rikers is you donít get beaten every day ?!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 03, 2017, 03:08:26 PM
when your cell mates are the dregs of society it definitely sounds a heck of a lot worse than the fellow i know in walkill  who has a cell to himself!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 03:20:12 PM
  Itís not possible for a month long sentence to be equivalent to several years unless the person has no life and to him a reg prison is not much of a downgrade from his free life. I mean as bad as rikers is you donít get beaten every day ?!
Have you been to either? I said  someone would say it and here it is...

And i said federal prison, not regular state prison.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 03:20:36 PM
when your cell mates are the dregs of society it definitely sounds a heck of a lot worse than the fellow i know in walkill  who has a cell to himself!
Sixty bunkmates
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 03, 2017, 03:35:15 PM
  Itís not possible for a month long sentence to be equivalent to several years unless the person has no life and to him a reg prison is not much of a downgrade from his free life. I mean as bad as rikers is you donít get beaten every day ?!
What are you basing your info off of?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 03, 2017, 03:40:37 PM
  Itís not possible for a month long sentence to be equivalent to several years unless the person has no life and to him a reg prison is not much of a downgrade from his free life. I mean as bad as rikers is you donít get beaten every day ?!

Where's the dislike button?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 03:49:18 PM
I
There are others here (at least one that I know about) who have been to prison. Their incarceration was longer than mine, from what I gather. Their experiences and recovery from those experiences are different than mine. So what I share is very personal and my own experience only. If you've had your own experience there is no use in trying to compare.

I said this and it still holds true.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 03, 2017, 04:29:11 PM
I said this and it still holds true.
sounds like יש דברים בגו
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 03, 2017, 04:35:05 PM
You can't compare a place like Rikers to a FCI. Is one month equal to a couple of years? Maybe not but I would bet many would trade a month in Rikers for a year in a place like FCI Milan.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: miles lover on December 03, 2017, 04:41:25 PM
What are you basing your info off of?
Common sense. The op wasnít in both either. He said he heard... Iím saying that if he actually did hear then itís based off someone that doesnít have a life and is fine with a reg prison.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 05:11:45 PM
You can't compare a place like Rikers to a FCI. Is one month equal to a couple of years? Maybe not but I would bet many would trade a month in Rikers for a year in a place like FCI Milan.
The person I heard it from was at FCI Otisville Camp (with some time in the hole behind the fence too). He said 2-3 years equivalent of Camp.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 03, 2017, 05:15:09 PM
The person I heard it from was at FCI Otisville Camp (with some time in the hole behind the fence too). He said 2-3 years equivalent of Camp.
I am sure every place is different. I used a county facility (not as bad as Rikers) compared to FCI Milan (don't even lock the cells in one block).  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 03, 2017, 05:17:01 PM
Common sense. The op wasnít in both either. He said he heard... Iím saying that if he actually did hear then itís based off someone that doesnít have a life and is fine with a reg prison.
Sorry, but even according to your logic, 1+0 is still greater then 0+0.

Please have some respect and sensitivity to OP.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: miles lover on December 03, 2017, 06:09:53 PM
Sorry, but even according to your logic, 1+0 is still greater then 0+0.


  Too Briskish for me. Come again ?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 07:09:57 PM
  Too Briskish for me. Come again ?
Yingele, this thread is for big boys, go back and play with your magformers and you can come again.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 07:34:41 PM
In November 2010 I bounced a check in my escrow account. That started the ball rolling. The bank automatically contacted the Grievance Committee which handles ethics complaints against lawyers. I knew I was in trouble. The client threatened to have me arrested. I sought legal advice from some of the biggest names in the criminal defense field.

A family member suggested i go to a Gamblers' Anonymous meeting. I went and immediately felt at home.

Contrary to popular belief it takes a long time for them to disbar attorneys. I didnt get suspended until January 2012. I was disbarred in January 2013.

I was arrested in March 2012. They didnt just arrest me. They sent 3 NYPD detectives to knock on my door. My wife answered and I wasnt home. We had always had a contingency plan if/when i was arrested. She contacted an attorney and he advised me how to turn myself in.

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 08:29:32 PM
I turned myself in on a Thursday afternoon at 1pm at the DAs office. This was Thursday before my oldest son's bar mitzvah shabbos.

They immediately frisked me, vouchered the stuff in my pocket and locked me in a bare room with a door handle and lock on the outside only. They explained what was to happen over the next few hours.

I was fingerprinted. They sent my fingerprints to Albany to make sure i wasnt wanted on other charges. They said I would need to go to Central Booking to have my picture taken and then to court. If i didnt get this done before 3:30 then i would be spending the night, at a minimum, in jail.

My prints finally came back clean at around 245pm. They raced me over to Central Booking for my picture taking session, handcuffed, in the back of an unmarked police car with lights and sirens.

We couldnt go into Central Booking because a bus full of prisoners was waiting to be unloaded before we could get inside. While waiting outside an unknown voice yelled at me from the bus "David where are my diamonds?" "Where's the money?" This was my welcome to Central Booking.

We finally got in and they took my picture. The detectives then took me over to the courthouse. Walking, hands cuffed behind my back, in the front door and through the lobby of the courthouse, past the metal detectors, into the elevators, all of which were very familiar to me, was one of the most humiliating moments in my life.

We made it in front of the judge with minutes to spare. The DA was asking  for $400k bail. My attorney argued that i was not a flight risk as i had know about stealing the money for 18 months and hadnt fled. The judge was convinced. She let me go on my own recognizance. No bail. I had to surrender my passport though.

 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 03, 2017, 08:32:46 PM
While waiting outside an unknown voice yelled at me from the bus "David where are my diamonds?" "Where's the money?" This was my welcome to Central Booking.
Are we allowed to chuckle?  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 08:34:22 PM
Are we allowed to chuckle?  :)
You gotta know i had a good laugh out of it too. If i learned one thing, criminals have a great sense of humor. You need it to survive.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 03, 2017, 08:34:23 PM
Are we allowed to chuckle?  :)
You?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 08:34:56 PM
You?
We is the proper term for his multiple personalities.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 03, 2017, 10:05:16 PM
I turned myself in on a Thursday afternoon at 1pm at the DAs office. This was Thursday before my oldest son's bar mitzvah shabbos.

They immediately frisked me, vouchered the stuff in my pocket and locked me in a bare room with a door handle and lock on the outside only. They explained what was to happen over the next few hours.

I was fingerprinted. They sent my fingerprints to Albany to make sure i wasnt wanted on other charges. They said I would need to go to Central Booking to have my picture taken and then to court. If i didnt get this done before 3:30 then i would be spending the night, at a minimum, in jail.

My prints finally came back clean at around 245pm. They raced me over to Central Booking for my picture taking session, handcuffed, in the back of an unmarked police car with lights and sirens.

We couldnt go into Central Booking because a bus full of prisoners was waiting to be unloaded before we could get inside. While waiting outside an unknown voice yelled at me from the bus "David where are my diamonds?" "Where's the money?" This was my welcome to Central Booking.

We finally got in and they took my picture. The detectives then took me over to the courthouse. Walking, hands cuffed behind my back, in the front door and through the lobby of the courthouse, past the metal detectors, into the elevators, all of which were very familiar to me, was one of the most humiliating moments in my life.

We made it in front of the judge with minutes to spare. The DA was asking  for $400k bail. My attorney argued that i was not a flight risk as i had know about stealing the money for 18 months and hadnt fled. The judge was convinced. She let me go on my own recognizance. No bail. I had to surrender my passport though.

Why didn't you flee?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: cholent on December 03, 2017, 10:09:09 PM
Why didn't you flee?
Seriously?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 10:10:52 PM
Why didn't you flee?
To? With? For? Why?

F.E.A.R.

Forget Everything And Run

F.E.A.R.

Face Everything And Recover

Those were my choices.. Can you guess which one I chose?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 03, 2017, 10:14:20 PM
Seriously?
Sort of. My uncle went to Israel, and stayed low. It's worked for him so far. I've heard of people going to Switzerland, Brazil & Australia. I know it doesn't work for everyone, and extradition is always possible, but for the sake of this intriguing story, why didn't you consider fleeing?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 10:22:08 PM
Sort of. My uncle went to Israel, and stayed low. It's worked for him so far. I've heard of people going to Switzerland, Brazil & Australia. I know it doesn't work for everyone, and extradition is always possible, but for the sake of this intriguing story, why didn't you consider fleeing?
I sat in the parking lot of JFK in December 2010 with $5k in my pocket and thought about it. Then i said to myself, where am i going with $5k to start a new life. To give up my family, everything I ever knew, for 5 years minimum. Israel extradites financial criminals. Sometimes you just gotta face the music, whatever the cost.

Suicide was an option too. A good friend who is no longer alive wrote me a little note..."Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem." I carry that note and message with me all the time.

Some of what I say may sound trite and cliche, but let me tell you it saved my life. Literally so.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 03, 2017, 10:25:42 PM
am i the first one to bookmark this thread?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 10:26:27 PM
am i the first one to bookmark this thread?
No that would be me.  ;D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 03, 2017, 10:31:07 PM
Suicide was an option too. A good friend who is no longer alive wrote me a little note..."Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem." I carry that note and message with me all the time.
Is it?

For a Yid?

For a family man?

Why do you carry that note? What thoughts, feelings or emotions does it evoke?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 03, 2017, 10:31:32 PM
No that would be me.  ;D
you dont count ..... you are the thread !!!
but im fine being second
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 03, 2017, 10:31:44 PM


I sat in the parking lot of JFK in December 2010 with $5k in my pocket and thought about it. Then i said to myself, where am i going with $5k to start a new life. To give up my family, everything I ever knew, for 5 years minimum. Israel extradites financial criminals. Sometimes you just gotta face the music, whatever the cost.

Suicide was an option too. A good friend who is no longer alive wrote me a little note..."Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem." I carry that note and message with me all the time.

Some of what I say may sound trite and cliche, but let me tell you it saved my life. Literally so.

If you didn't have a family you would've ran?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 03, 2017, 10:32:17 PM
Is it?

For a Yid?

For a family man?
a persons situation can break them no matter if they are frum family man or not
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 03, 2017, 10:33:45 PM

If you didn't have a family you would've ran?
and maybe a little more than 5k and a place to go
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 10:34:47 PM
Is it?

For a Yid?

For a family man?
No I'm making it up for the story.

For every doubter out there:

I wish this was all a dream. I truly wish I still had my law license. I wish I didnt do the things I did. I wish I didnt put my family through what they went through and still continue to go through as a result of my actions.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on December 03, 2017, 10:35:07 PM
Is it?

For a Yid?

For a family man?

Why do you carry that note? What thoughts, feelings or emotions does it evoke?
I think you're reading a bit too much into the word "solution."

It is not a complete and total solution but it is a solution to one problem, even if it brings a whole host of other problems...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 03, 2017, 10:35:47 PM
No I'm making it up for the story.

For every doubter out there:

I wish this was all a dream. I truly wish I still had my law license. I wish I didnt do the things I did. I wish I didnt put my family through what they went through and still continue to go through as a result of my actions.
any chance of ever getting it back or these things are permanent
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 10:36:12 PM

If you didn't have a family you would've ran?
Maybe. Can only know what I did do. Only WAZE give you different route options.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 03, 2017, 10:37:31 PM
a persons situation can break them no matter if they are frum family man or not
Do you have any professional insight into this? If there are any mental health professionals around, I would like to hear them chime in on this?

It seems like the thought crossed @hvaces42's mind, yet the situation didn't break him to act on it.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 10:37:42 PM
any chance of ever getting it back or these things are permanent
Can reapply in 25 months. No guarantees but if I continue to do what Im doing now, no reason for them to deny it. But its still a ways away.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: helpyouamdme on December 03, 2017, 10:38:22 PM
a persons situation can break them no matter if they are frum family man or not
There is a victim and there's a survivor Specially in our faith in religion the challenge is given only one who know how to carry them and if God gave you one he know's your strength and your capability that you can take it on you
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 03, 2017, 10:39:08 PM
I think you're reading a bit too much into the word "solution."

It is not a complete and total solution but it is a solution to one problem, even if it brings a whole host of other problems...
It's not the "solution" I am questioning, but rather the permanent vs temporary.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 10:41:12 PM

Why do you carry that note? What thoughts, feelings or emotions does it evoke?
Just a reminder how dark it can get. And a reminder that there is always hope even in the darkest times. When my case started I was facing a maximum sentence of 5-15 years upstate (realistically i had seen cases lile this end up with 3-9 years).
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 03, 2017, 10:45:07 PM
No I'm making it up for the story.

For every doubter out there:

I wish this was all a dream. I truly wish I still had my law license. I wish I didnt do the things I did. I wish I didnt put my family through what they went through and still continue to go through as a result of my actions.
I am not doubting the terrible situation or choices.

I don't know what I would have done if I were presented with the exact same ניסיונות that you had.

I am sure suicide did seem like a "permanent solution to a temporary problem", yet it looks like you concluded that this is not the case.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 03, 2017, 10:47:03 PM
and maybe a little more than 5k and a place to go
Not trying to sound idealistic, but every jew, and his family, have a place in Israel. The Aliyah benefits are very decent, and I'm sure 5K and some organizations like Nefesh Bnefesh can get a person going for 2-3 months till they get on their feet.
They may extradite for financial crimes, but its a long a drawn out civil process, and Israeli citizens (assuming he would of made proper Aliyah during the 18 months before they come knocking) can make deals to serve in Israel if they're  family is all there, and where there is definitely no Rikers. Besides, once you leave, they don't really chase you unless you come up on the radar again i.e. show up at the border.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 10:47:27 PM
Do you have any professional insight into this? If there are any mental health professionals around, I would like to hear them chime in on this?

It seems like the thought crossed @hvaces42's mind, yet the situation didn't break him to act on it.
Came close, but chickened out of taking pills. Have a friend who lived the same story and just got his law license back. He initially put a gun in his mouth but couldnt pull the trigger. He tells the story of his daughter telling him to kill himself because she couldnt live with her children knowing their grandfather was a thief. if he was dead it would have been easier for them. What I have learned over the years is that addicts love themselves too much to actually consciously do themselves harm.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 03, 2017, 10:47:44 PM
Just a reminder how dark it can get. And a reminder that there is always hope even in the darkest times. When my case started I was facing a maximum sentence of 5-15 years upstate (realistically i had seen cases lile this end up with 3-9 years).
That is indeed dark and terrible. But as you said, there is hope even in the darkest times.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 10:48:59 PM
Not trying to sound idealistic, but every jew, and his family, have a place in Israel. The Aliyah benefits are very decent, and I'm sure 5K and some organizations like Nefesh Bnefesh can get a person going for 2-3 months till they get on their feet.
They may extradite for financial crimes, but its a long a drawn out civil process, and Israeli citizens (assuming he would of made proper Aliyah during the 18 months before they come knocking) can make deals to serve in Israel if they're  family is all there, and where there is definitely no Rikers. Besides, once you leave, they don't really chase you unless you come up on the radar again i.e. show up at the border.
And this is the danger of a thread of war stories...

People will learn new ideas.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 03, 2017, 10:49:42 PM


If he was dead it would have been easier for them.
Sad, but extremely true.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 03, 2017, 10:51:06 PM
And this is the danger of a thread of war stories...

People will learn new ideas.

I sure hope no sane individual would justify criminal activity based on what I suggested. I hope this disclaimer is clear enough.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 03, 2017, 10:52:40 PM
I sure hope no sane individual would justify criminal activity based on what I suggested. I hope this disclaimer is clear enough.
The issue is not the person thinking rationally.
אין אדם חוטא אלא אם כן נכנס בו רוח שטות
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 03, 2017, 10:53:17 PM
He tells the story of his daughter telling him to kill himself because she couldnt live with her children knowing their grandfather was a thief. if he was dead it would have been easier for them. What I have learned over the years is that addicts love themselves too much to actually consciously do themselves harm.
And she could live better with her children knowing that their grandfather was a thief who lacked faith and courage to face his actions and do teshuva, and ended up also killing himself?

Is that line about addicts loving themselves your own conclusion, or something you've heard from professionals?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 10:53:50 PM
I sure hope no sane individual would justify criminal activity based on what I suggested. I hope this disclaimer is clear enough.
Prison Insanity and Death are guarantees that 12 step programs promise for addicts that are not willing to face the true nature of their addiction.

So I was insane and others who may be insane as well may take direction irrespective of your disclaimer.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 03, 2017, 10:54:24 PM
And this is the danger of a thread of war stories...

People will learn new ideas.
I think every single person in this situation thinks of this.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 03, 2017, 10:55:39 PM
And she could live better with her children knowing that their grandfather was a thief who lacked faith and courage to face his actions and do teshuva, and ended up also killing himself?

Is that line about addicts loving themselves your own conclusion, or something you've heard from professionals?
How is sitting in prison doing teshuva?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 03, 2017, 10:56:24 PM
How is sitting in prison doing teshuva?
Living gives an opportunity to do tshuva
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 10:56:50 PM

Is that line about addicts loving themselves your own conclusion, or something you've heard from professionals?
Personal experience and something I have heard from addiction counselors and in 12 step meetings. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 03, 2017, 10:57:44 PM
How is sitting in prison doing teshuva?
I never said it is.

But while a person is נשמה בגוף teshuva is an available option. Once the נשמה departs, teshuva is not an option.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 03, 2017, 11:00:02 PM
כל זמן שהנר דולקת אפשר לתקן
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 11:00:30 PM
Living gives an opportunity to do tshuva
Where there is life there is hope.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on December 03, 2017, 11:01:08 PM
It's not the "solution" I am questioning, but rather the permanent vs temporary.
So is the problem not temporary? Or is the "solution" not permanent?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 03, 2017, 11:01:42 PM
Personal experience and something I have heard from addiction counselors and in 12 step meetings.
I find it hard to accept that it's only about not harming one's self. If you were talking about a single person, that might be true. But I would imagine that a person with a family takes into consideration the harm caused to the family, which is by far greater (even from a secular perspective) than the self harm in employing a "permanent solution to a temporary problem".
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 11:02:39 PM
What's so hard to understand? If one is dead he has no problems. The fact that he creates other issues and may/may not have afterlife problems does not affect the permanence of his solution.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 03, 2017, 11:03:03 PM
So is the problem not temporary? Or is the "solution" not permanent?
Everything is temporary.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 11:05:58 PM
I find it hard to accept that it's only about not harming one's self. If you were talking about a single person, that might be true. But I would imagine that a person with a family takes into consideration the harm caused to the family, which is by far greater (even from a secular perspective) than the self harm in employing a "permanent solution to a temporary problem".
You are thinking rationally, a person contemplating suicide is not. Stop imputing proper logical thinking into a person who is thinking about killing themselves to stop physical pain resulting from depression.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 11:06:47 PM
Everything is temporary.
paging @aygart please insert your religious discussion here..
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: good sam on December 03, 2017, 11:08:03 PM
Everything is temporary.
Why are you not getting this? It's inspirational talk for suicidal individuals.

In their heads, the problem is so overbearing that suicide seems like the only option. The message is that the problem, large as it seems, is temporary. Their proposed solution is permanent. So it might seem like a good idea now, but it's not the appropriate solution for their problem.


Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 03, 2017, 11:10:46 PM
Why are you not getting this? It's inspirational talk for suicidal individuals.

In their heads, the problem is so overbearing that suicide seems like the only option. The message is that the problem, large as it seems, is temporary. Their proposed solution is permanent. So it might seem like a good idea now, but it's not the appropriate solution for their problem.
Thank you.

For some reason I didn't get it until you spelled it out for me. I was interpreting it differently.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 03, 2017, 11:11:53 PM
paging @aygart please insert your religious discussion here..
It is inserted without me.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:12:04 PM
You are thinking rationally, a person contemplating suicide is not. Stop imputing proper logical thinking into a person who is thinking about killing themselves to stop physical pain resulting from depression.
+1.
EG loves to get into the nitty gritty at times while losing sight of the bigger picture...for better and for worse.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on December 03, 2017, 11:13:49 PM
Everything is temporary.
Temporary is relative.

As far as this world is concerned (well at least until techias hameisim) suicide is permanent.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 03, 2017, 11:16:16 PM
Temporary is relative.

As far as this world is concerned (well at least until techias hameisim) suicide is permanent.
It results can be permanent in the next world as well
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:16:22 PM
Not trying to sound idealistic, but every jew, and his family, have a place in Israel. The Aliyah benefits are very decent, and I'm sure 5K and some organizations like Nefesh Bnefesh can get a person going for 2-3 months till they get on their feet.
They may extradite for financial crimes, but its a long a drawn out civil process, and Israeli citizens (assuming he would of made proper Aliyah during the 18 months before they come knocking) can make deals to serve in Israel if they're  family is all there, and where there is definitely no Rikers. Besides, once you leave, they don't really chase you unless you come up on the radar again i.e. show up at the border.
I was watching the social network today and wondered if I would do in Eduado Saverin's shoes. Would I renounce my citizenship to save $1B in taxes?
In the end, I love my country and my family too much to do that. Never mind the debt owed to a country that allows someone to create a company like FB.
Israel isn't a be all and end all solution...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: good sam on December 03, 2017, 11:21:55 PM
@hvaces42

How did your wife find out about it? Did you at some point build up the courage to tell her? Did she know all along?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:23:34 PM
@hvaces

How did your wife find out about it? Did you at some point build up the courage to tell her? Did she know all along?
Same question for the kids.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 11:25:06 PM
It results can be permanent in the next world as well
And there it is...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: zh cohen on December 03, 2017, 11:25:31 PM
Not trying to sound idealistic, but every jew, and his family, have a place in Israel. The Aliyah benefits are very decent, and I'm sure 5K and some organizations like Nefesh Bnefesh can get a person going for 2-3 months till they get on their feet.
They may extradite for financial crimes, but its a long a drawn out civil process, and Israeli citizens (assuming he would of made proper Aliyah during the 18 months before they come knocking) can make deals to serve in Israel if they're  family is all there, and where there is definitely no Rikers. Besides, once you leave, they don't really chase you unless you come up on the radar again i.e. show up at the border.

Does this justify higher bail amounts for Jews? When the prosecution tried claiming that in Rubashkin's case the whole world screamed "anti-Semitism"
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 03, 2017, 11:27:48 PM
I was watching the social network today and wondered if I would do in Eduado Saverin's shoes. Would I renounce my citizenship to save $1B in taxes?
In the end, I love my country and my family too much to do that. Never mind the debt owed to a country that allows someone to create a company like FB.
Israel isn't a be all and end all solution...
Wow we have sure gotten a bit to comfortable in our current American Galus
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 11:29:17 PM
@hvaces

How did your wife find out about it? Did you at some point build up the courage to tell her? Did she know all along?
My father and my uncle were nice enough to tell her there was an issue. I only confessed to about a 1/4 of what was really going on. She knew nothing at all. Eventually i came clean on everything.

Kids were eased into it.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: good sam on December 03, 2017, 11:30:11 PM
Not trying to sound idealistic, but every jew, and his family, have a place in Israel. The Aliyah benefits are very decent, and I'm sure 5K and some organizations like Nefesh Bnefesh can get a person going for 2-3 months till they get on their feet.
They may extradite for financial crimes, but its a long a drawn out civil process, and Israeli citizens (assuming he would of made proper Aliyah during the 18 months before they come knocking) can make deals to serve in Israel if they're  family is all there, and where there is definitely no Rikers. Besides, once you leave, they don't really chase you unless you come up on the radar again i.e. show up at the border.
Someone in my family escaped to Israel fleeing prosecution on financial crimes. Trust me, being a fugitive is a horrible existence.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 03, 2017, 11:31:05 PM
Someone in my family escaped to Israel fleeing prosecution on financial crimes. Trust me, being a fugitive is a horrible existence.
Worse than the experience being detailed here?!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: pixi on December 03, 2017, 11:31:36 PM
Worse than the experience being detailed here?!
In a way, yes.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:32:12 PM
Wow we have sure gotten a bit to comfortable in our current American Galus
We're going OT here, but If G-d wanted to take us out of Galus, he would.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:33:02 PM
Worse than the experience being detailed here?!
It's a life sentence...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 03, 2017, 11:33:48 PM
We're going OT here, but If G-d wanted to take us out of Galus, he would.
Too many people don't really want the geulah. They love their country and FB too much.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:36:22 PM
Too many people don't really want the geulah. They love their country and FB too much.
Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 03, 2017, 11:36:40 PM
It's a life sentence...


statute of limitations

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 03, 2017, 11:36:53 PM
We're going OT here, but If G-d wanted to take us out of Galus, he would.
That's bordering Kefirah already. Hashem is desperate to take us out already. The problem is us - our sins and lack of real interest in being redeemed. But you're right, we severely OT by now
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:38:04 PM
You're always going to be a fugitive.
I have a great uncle who was pardoned...but he still won't step foot in the US for fear of new charges being brought.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 11:38:09 PM
It's a life sentence...
Not quite. Only until the statute of limitations expires. I know a very wealthy person who was in HKG for 10 years avoiding prosecution. When the statute of limitations ran he lade a deal to be able to come back and he lives in NY these days.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 11:38:36 PM
You're always going to be a fugitive.
I have a great uncle who was pardoned...but he still won't step foot in the US for fear of new charges being brought.
Marc Rich
Pinky Green
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:39:23 PM
Marc Rich
Pinky Green
No comment.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 03, 2017, 11:40:23 PM
Marc Rich
Pinky Green
Yeah I meant Pinky when I mentioned Switzerland.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 11:40:40 PM
No comment.
Just mentioning names of people i know with same story. I actually worked with Marc Rich's Attorney and saw the actual pardon hanging in his office. I handled some aspects of his daughters estate.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:40:52 PM
That's bordering Kefirah already. Hashem is desperate to take us out already. The problem is us - our sins and lack of real interest in being redeemed. But you're right, we severely OT by now
Maybe he won't take us out due to sinas chinum and Jews judging their fellows negatively with baseless accusations of kefirah because they're not running to Israel?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 03, 2017, 11:41:10 PM
Wow we have sure gotten a bit to comfortable in our current American Galus
Israel is also a golus
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 11:41:28 PM
Yeah I meant Pinky when I mentioned Switzerland.
When you have a few billion and the Saudi's will provide you with a kosher lunch on their yacht in the Red Sea then you're ok. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:42:50 PM
Israel is also a golus
Arguably a bigger one...oy meh haya lanu.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:43:39 PM
When you have a few billion and the Saudi's will provide you with a kosher lunch on their yacht in the Red Sea then you're ok. 
Still can't buy you access to US medical facilities when you need them. We all have to live with choices in our life.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:44:35 PM
Yeah I meant Pinky when I mentioned Switzerland.
It helps when you're able to pay nations off to ensure you won't be extradited. But that doesn't mean he didn't live the life of a fugitive, even if it was a plush one.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 03, 2017, 11:44:37 PM
Still can't buy you access to US medical facilities when you need them. We all have to live with choices in our life.
One of the things Israel and prison have in common is no access to US medical facilities when you need them.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 11:45:44 PM
Still can't buy you access to US medical facilities when you need them. We all have to live with choices in our life.
I wouldnt worry. Heard from a friend who is in the medical field. He just got back form South Africa. They have cutting edge hospitals down there. I know the Saudi King comes to NY to get treated. But I'm sure there are other places to get treatment in First world accommodations.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:46:08 PM
One of the things Israel and prison have in common is no access to US medical facilities when you need them.
I suppose that depends on the length of your US sentence.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:46:54 PM
I wouldnt worry. Heard from a friend who is in the medical field. He just got back form South Africa. They have cutting edge hospitals down there. I know the Saudi King comes to NY to get treated. But I'm sure there are other places to get treatment in First world accommodations.
Never heard about any hospitals in South Africa can compare to what we have in the US.
Regardless, we've managed to go OT once again.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 11:47:02 PM
It helps when you're able to pay nations off to ensure you won't be extradited. But that doesn't mean he didn't live the life of a fugitive, even if it was a plush one.
It is a priceless feeling to never have to look over your shoulder, ever.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 03, 2017, 11:48:22 PM
Still can't buy you access to US medical facilities when you need them. We all have to live with choices in our life.
Actually Pinky had a heard surgery during the 90's, he flew in a team of the top doctors from London to Zurich (his grandson in Yeshiva told me this), money can buy this too.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 03, 2017, 11:49:34 PM
Maybe he won't take us out due to sinas chinum and Jews judging their fellows negatively with baseless accusations of kefirah because they're not running to Israel?
Come on Dan you know I didn't mean this personal...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: pixi on December 03, 2017, 11:49:49 PM
It is a priceless feeling to never have to look over your shoulder, ever.
+1000000
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:50:48 PM
Actually Pinky had a heard surgery during the 90's, he flew in a team of the top doctors from London to Zurich (his grandson in Yeshiva told me this), money can buy this too.
I'm aware. I've had family members questioned by the FBI when they were with his wife in the US and asked to open their shirts to prove they weren't Pinky as he had open heart surgery.

Regardless, you still can't have that at your disposal full time as we take for granted in the US.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: good sam on December 03, 2017, 11:50:52 PM
Just mentioning names of people i know with same story. I actually worked with Marc Rich's Attorney and saw the actual pardon hanging in his office. I handled some aspects of his daughters estate.
Hanging on the wall? ???
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 03, 2017, 11:51:47 PM
+1000000
+1000000?
+10000000?
+100000000?
+1000000000?
+10000000000?

What's the cutoff?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:51:53 PM
Come on Dan you know I didn't mean this personal...
So don't write stupid statements.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 03, 2017, 11:52:47 PM
I wouldnt worry. Heard from a friend who is in the medical field. He just got back form South Africa. They have cutting edge hospitals down there. I know the Saudi King comes to NY to get treated. But I'm sure there are other places to get treatment in First world accommodations.
now you know why so manh Canadian, English, and Israeli doctors are South African... and also because it was probably a degree mill for whites during the apartheid years.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: pixi on December 03, 2017, 11:55:17 PM
+1000000?
+10000000?
+100000000?
+1000000000?
+10000000000?

What's the cutoff?
No cutoff. אֵין מִספָּר
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 03, 2017, 11:55:34 PM
No cutoff. אֵין מִספָּר
+1
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 03, 2017, 11:58:06 PM
Hanging on the wall? ???
Framed with Clinton's signature.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 11:59:39 PM
Did Rich ever step foot in the US afterward?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 12:00:43 AM
Did Rich ever step foot in the US afterward?
Not AFAIK

He died and is buried in EY IIRC
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 04, 2017, 12:02:03 AM
Not AFAIK

He died and is buried in EY IIRC
That's what Wikipedia says.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 12:03:03 AM
That's what Wikipedia says.
Glad that part of the brain still works.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YossieW on December 04, 2017, 12:03:41 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/pardoned-bill-clinton-marc-rich-plans-returning-u-s-article-1.384567
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 04, 2017, 12:04:07 AM
Not AFAIK

He died and is buried in EY IIRC
IE: He died looking over his shoulder.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 04, 2017, 12:27:01 AM
Can we have a separate thread where ppl can have stupid conversation not related to point here.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 04, 2017, 12:28:10 AM
My father and my uncle were nice enough to tell her there was an issue. I only confessed to about a 1/4 of what was really going on. She knew nothing at all. Eventually i came clean on everything.

Kids were eased into it.
How old where your kids?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 04, 2017, 12:28:12 AM
Can we have a separate thread where ppl can have stupid conversation not related to point here.
We would bring that OT and speak about this
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 04, 2017, 12:29:19 AM
We would bring that OT and speak about this
There's OT and there's stupid, we're well beyond the latter.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YossieW on December 04, 2017, 12:31:21 AM
What's so hard to understand? If one is dead he has no problems. The fact that he creates other issues and may/may not have afterlife problems does not affect the permanence of his solution.

https://nypost.com/2017/12/03/golden-krust-ceo-killed-himself-over-tax-debt-fears-of-probe/amp/
Title: Prison
Post by: miles lover on December 04, 2017, 12:31:22 AM
Yingele, this thread is for big boys, go back and play with your magformers and you can come again.
   Lol. On a serious note I enjoy reading your thread but it gotta be without exaggerations. Comparing 34 days in rikers to several years in a reg prison is just plain false.
  Waiting to hear more about your story.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 04, 2017, 12:35:23 AM
   Lol. On a serious note I enjoy reading your thread but it gotta be without exaggerations. Comparing 34 days in rikers to several years in a reg prison is just plain false.
  Waiting to hear more about your story.
Why would you be waiting if you already know what it is like at RI and federal?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 04, 2017, 12:36:21 AM
Why would you be waiting if you already know what it is like at RI and federal?
+1
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 12:36:57 AM
   Lol. On a serious note I enjoy reading your thread but it gotta be without exaggerations. Comparing 34 days in rikers to several years in a reg prison is just plain false.
  Waiting to hear more about your story.
You have been asked several times to back up your claims. Put up or shut up. Also, read what I wrote. I wrote federal prison. SMR gets to take pics with his visitors. I had 1 hour visits with strip searchs, not photo ops. Not comparing. But you're wrong and you havent been to either. I've been to one and i am not exaggerating. Go do your own research and let us knkw which one is worse. But its gotta be first person.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 04, 2017, 12:38:52 AM
There's a point where you're foot is so far in your mouth you keep stuffing it, in hopes when it comes out the other side it will work just as it did before...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 04, 2017, 12:44:38 AM


There's a point where you're foot is so far in your mouth you keep stuffing it, in hopes when it comes out the other side it will work just as it did before...

Sounds like

a permanent solution to a temporary problem

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 04, 2017, 01:03:45 AM
You have been asked several times to back up your claims. Put up or shut up. Also, read what I wrote. I wrote federal prison. SMR gets to take pics with his visitors. I had 1 hour visits with strip searchs, not photo ops. Not comparing. But you're wrong and you havent been to either. I've been to one and i am not exaggerating. Go do your own research and let us knkw which one is worse. But its gotta be first person.
SMR doesn't have a walk in the park either.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: miles lover on December 04, 2017, 01:12:05 AM
You have been asked several times to back up your claims. Put up or shut up. Also, read what I wrote. I wrote federal prison. SMR gets to take pics with his visitors. I had 1 hour visits with strip searchs, not photo ops. Not comparing. But you're wrong and you havent been to either. I've been to one and i am not exaggerating. Go do your own research and let us knkw which one is worse. But its gotta be first person.
U werenít either to both. Donít believe everything you hear. Use your common sense. U know the story that went around social media the other day about the someone else taking a criminal record for a friend and it saved him from 9/11 ? Yeah that story was changed several times. Mainly the law firm that he could have worked for wasnít even in the twin towers rather a building nearby where nobody got killed. My father heard first hand from the guy that it wasnít said the right way. Moral of the story is u canít believe everything you hear....
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 04, 2017, 01:13:32 AM
U werenít either to both. Donít believe everything you hear. Use your common sense. U know the story that went around social media the other day about the someone else taking a criminal record for a friend and it saved him from 9/11 ? Yeah that story was changed several times. Mainly the law firm that he could have worked for wasnít even in the twin towers rather a building nearby where nobody got killed. My father heard first hand from the guy that it wasnít said the right way. Moral of the story is u canít believe everything you hear....
Coherent English? I'm a bit slow.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: miles lover on December 04, 2017, 01:15:38 AM
Coherent English? I'm a bit slow.
One day youíll learn
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on December 04, 2017, 01:51:27 AM
How old where your kids?
This was Thursday before my oldest son's bar mitzvah shabbos.


Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Zkpncs48 on December 04, 2017, 02:10:11 AM
You have been asked several times to back up your claims. Put up or shut up. Also, read what I wrote. I wrote federal prison. SMR gets to take pics with his visitors. I had 1 hour visits with strip searchs, not photo ops. Not comparing. But you're wrong and you havent been to either. I've been to one and i am not exaggerating. Go do your own research and let us knkw which one is worse. But its gotta be first person.
I too find it hard to believe that anything for 34 days could compare to being locked up for several years.
I know someone who was in Otisville for 5 years and was never the same again. He missed 2 of his kids weddings and one of his sons' bar mitzva.
Before he went in he was a happy go lucky kind of guy and when he came out he was a broken man.
5 years is a big chunk of your life and to lose your freedom and family life for that long is indescribably hard.
I'm not detracting at all from your experience, which I'm sure was absolutely horrible, but I just can't fathom how it can be equal to several years in prison.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 04:34:27 AM
You are thinking rationally, a person contemplating suicide is not. Stop imputing proper logical thinking into a person who is thinking about killing themselves to stop physical pain resulting from depression.
What I was trying to do, is to understand whether it was some rational thinking that took over (or at least had some influence), or as you described it as an addict loving himself to much to cause himself harm. It seems that you you are adamant that it is purely the latter.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 04, 2017, 07:02:11 AM
   Lol. On a serious note I enjoy reading your thread but it gotta be without exaggerations. Comparing 34 days in rikers to several years in a reg prison is just plain false.
  Waiting to hear more about your story.
You have been asked several times to back up your claims. Put up or shut up.
Can you please shut up.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 07:17:15 AM
Just leave the issue alone. I'm not saying it was one way or another anymore. Its my experience and its the way it was described to me. I've been to otisville Camp and its gan eden compared to whats behind the fence and olam habah compared to state prison. So lets just leave this topic alone. It can be argued until the cows come home without resolution.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 07:19:16 AM
SMR doesn't have a walk in the park either.
Chas v'shalom. He is nebech a korban. I was just trying to bring to light how it would be impossible to even get a picture the way that was done recently with him. No aspersions cast on him or his suffering.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 07:22:31 AM
Moral of the story is u canít believe everything you hear....
Unless of course you were there and heard it first person. Have my own 9/11 story too. See my avatar for that one. Thats my car.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 07:23:09 AM
What I was trying to do, is to understand whether it was some rational thinking that took over (or at least had some influence), or as you described it as an addict loving himself to much to cause himself harm. It seems that you you are adamant that it is purely the latter.
Probably a bit of both with a healthy dose of narcissism.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 04, 2017, 07:38:22 AM


One day youíll unlearn

FTFY
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 04, 2017, 07:54:05 AM
Have my own 9/11 story too. See my avatar for that one. Thats my car.
Wow. It was smashed by debris? You went direct and not with a bus?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 07:58:36 AM
Wow. It was smashed by debris? You went direct and not with a bus?
I was already in midtown.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Ergel on December 04, 2017, 09:17:46 AM
Arguably a bigger one...oy meh haya lanu.
So don't write stupid statements.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dawie on December 04, 2017, 10:21:53 AM
Never heard about any hospitals in South Africa can compare to what we have in the US.
Depends for what
Great Dr's (if they haven't emigrated) nursing care often subpar
and you never want to have to get a transfusion
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dawie on December 04, 2017, 10:25:24 AM
now you know why so manh Canadian, English, and Israeli doctors are South African... and also because it was probably a degree mill for whites during the apartheid years.
::)
no, because they got the best schooling and the fact that 2nd year med students were working at Barra "practicing" on real live patients way before a US med student even sees a stiff
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 10:28:52 AM

and you never want to have to get a transfusion
That can be California today too
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 04, 2017, 10:30:34 AM
::)
no, because they got the best schooling and the fact that 2nd year med students were working at Barra "practicing" on real live patients way before a US med student even sees a stiff

That explains their proficiency in trauma treatment, not the excellent cardiologists and other specialists SA produces. I feel like we might be about to derail yet another thread with South Africa talk  ;D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dawie on December 04, 2017, 10:37:54 AM
That explains their proficiency in trauma treatment, not the excellent cardiologists and other specialists SA produces. I feel like we might be about to derail yet another thread with South Africa talk  ;D
true dat (about going OT)
they practiced in everything not just Trauma(got alot of that on weekends too)...
Apartheid allowed alot of things (experimental treatments ) that would never be allowed in USA
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: 3yummyboys on December 04, 2017, 10:43:15 AM
I have to be honest, some of the comments here make me nauseous. If you havenít had to deal with the nisayon of committing crime and the experience of jail or prison (myself included BH) then how can you think you know what itís like? We should appreciate brave individuals that share their stories, to help others and to create an awareness. Not a single person can say with 100% certainty that they would have made different choices. As far as the experience of a jail or prison, obviously everyone has their own experience but just because you know someone who had an experience that was less than pure hell, doesnít mean that atrocities arenít committed in many cases.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 10:46:00 AM
I have to be honest, some of the comments here make me nauseous. If you havenít had to deal with the nisayon of committing crime and the experience of jail or prison (myself included BH) then how can you think you know what itís like? We should appreciate brave individuals that share their stories, to help others and to create an awareness. Not a single person can say with 100% certainty that they would have made different choices. As far as the experience of a jail or prison, obviously everyone has their own experience but just because you know someone who had an experience that was less than pure hell, doesnít mean that atrocities arenít committed in many cases.
There are children that play here too. Just remember, not all are mature enough to make those distinctions.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 04, 2017, 10:46:10 AM
I have to be honest, some of the comments here make me nauseous. If you havenít had to deal with the nisayon of committing crime and the experience of jail or prison (myself included BH) then how can you think you know what itís like? We should appreciate brave individuals that share their stories, to help others and to create an awareness. Not a single person can say with 100% certainty that they would have made different choices. As far as the experience of a jail or prison, obviously everyone has their own experience but just because you know someone who had an experience that was less than pure hell, doesnít mean that atrocities arenít committed in many cases.
+1
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: 3yummyboys on December 04, 2017, 10:50:44 AM
My father and my uncle were nice enough to tell her there was an issue. I only confessed to about a 1/4 of what was really going on. She knew nothing at all. Eventually i came clean on everything.

Kids were eased into it.

I would love to hear a wifeís perspective. Did she think you should run? I canít say I wouldnít prefer my husband to run .... although I do believe it would be the wrong decision. (Nor saying wrong for everyone, just in cĒv case it was me). As said before, the life of a fugitive ainít a walk in the park. And I wonder if a person can feel closure in that case? It seems hvaces has worked it through and come to peace with it.

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: 3yummyboys on December 04, 2017, 10:54:34 AM
He tells the story of his daughter telling him to kill himself because she couldnt live with her children knowing their grandfather was a thief. if he was dead it would have been easier for them.

So heartbreaking!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 10:55:48 AM
I would love to hear a wifeís perspective. Did she think you should run? I canít say I wouldnít prefer my husband to run .... although I do believe it would be the wrong decision. (Nor saying wrong for everyone, just in cĒv case it was me). As said before, the life of a fugitive ainít a walk in the park. And I wonder if a person can feel closure in that case? It seems hvaces has worked it through and come to peace with it.
She says she should have only been so lucky... ;D

Whole set of new issues but easier to be a nebech case whose husband ran away than to be the wife of a thief.

I havent stressed it enough but the only way we have been able to survive amd thrive is through the support and guidance of people who have lived through this before and who have recovered. We met thos people in Gamblers' Anonymous and Gam-Anon. BH this week I will be celebrating 7 years of abstinence and recovery in GA.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 04, 2017, 10:56:18 AM
I would love to hear a wifeís perspective. Did she think you should run? I canít say I wouldnít prefer my husband to run .... although I do believe it would be the wrong decision. (Nor saying wrong for everyone, just in cĒv case it was me). As said before, the life of a fugitive ainít a walk in the park. And I wonder if a person can feel closure in that case? It seems hvaces has worked it through and come to peace with it.
I actually had my wife read this thread and asked her this question. She said she would rather relocate elsewhere than have her husband sit even one day. In today's day and age with facetime and Whatsapp, and a practical air bridge between USA and Israel, it isn't worse than sitting (and the attached stigma). But again, no-one in their right mind should use this as leverage.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 11:05:11 AM
I actually had my wife read this thread and asked her this question. She said she would rather relocate elsewhere than have her husband sit even one day. In today's day and age with facetime and Whatsapp, and a practical air bridge between USA and Israel, it isn't worse than sitting (and the attached stigma). But again, no-one in their right mind should use this as leverage.
Running away from your problems doesnt make them go away. The stigma goes away if you contiue to do the right thing for a long time. I know leaders in certain industries who won lifetime achievement awards from the industry after living my exact story. So running away is easier than hard work, I get that. But where is the growth in character and being a normal functioning member of society when you dont deal with your issues amd just run away an hide from them.

I said it before and it bears repeating. As bad as life is now I wiuld do it again to get where I am today. Not afraid to deal with situations and tackle life head on are very high on my priority list today. I have a better relationship with my wife and my kids. I have a difderent appreciation of what is really important in life. I can see through BS much easier.

There are infinite possibilities when someone is abstinent and in recovery that cannot be had when one is in the throes of an addiction.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: skyguy918 on December 04, 2017, 11:15:37 AM
I would love to hear a wifeís perspective.
My wife used to read a blog like that a few years ago. Don't remember if they were frum, but she was definitely from a frum family. I'll try to find the name.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 11:40:12 AM
I would love to hear a wifeís perspective.
Why did you do this? Are you really that stupid? Didn't you think about our kids? OK I have calmed down. We will get through this as a family.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mikeoracle on December 04, 2017, 11:46:50 AM
My wife used to read a blog like that a few years ago. Don't remember if they were frum, but she was definitely from a frum family. I'll try to find the name.
I used to read something similar as well, last I checked the blog was blocked from the public. She kept adding chapters/installments. This thread reminded me of that blog, it was riveting.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: cholent on December 04, 2017, 11:49:55 AM
Why did you do this? Are you really that stupid? Didn't you think about our kids? OK I have calmed down. We will get through this as a family.

As if it would be anywhere near that fast or simple
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: skyguy918 on December 04, 2017, 11:50:59 AM
I used to read something similar as well, last I checked the blog was blocked from the public. She kept adding chapters/installments. This thread reminded me of that blog, it was riveting.
Must be the same one, my wife told me the name and that it is now blocked unless you're 'invited'. It can be found, but it's pretty clear she doesn't want everyone reading it anymore.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mikeoracle on December 04, 2017, 11:53:28 AM
Must be the same one, my wife told me the name and that it is now blocked unless you're 'invited'. It can be found, but it's pretty clear she doesn't want everyone reading it anymore.
Yup, sounds about right.
If I remember correctly, they sounded were on the Modern Orthodox spectrum. It had me awake at nights...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 11:54:41 AM
As if it would be anywhere near that fast or simple
Thats every day since, multiple times a day.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 04, 2017, 12:04:14 PM

I said it before and it bears repeating. As bad as life is now I wiuld do it again to get where I am today. Not afraid to deal with situations and tackle life head on are very high on my priority list today. I have a better relationship with my wife and my kids. I have a difderent appreciation of what is really important in life. I can see through BS much easier.

There are infinite possibilities when someone is abstinent and in recovery that cannot be had when one is in the throes of an addiction.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you do see an advantage of having sit in prison?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 12:06:47 PM
If I'm understanding you correctly, you do see an advantage of having sit in prison?
For me its what i needed to break the cycle. For some people it breaks them. Others dont learn their lesson. I know someone who was in the Otisville Camp and was caught smuggling contarband. In Fort Dix, his next stop he had a cell phone provided by the guards. Some people dont know which way is straight.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on December 04, 2017, 12:13:19 PM
I happened to bump into someone today who had fled the country & decided to return & do his time. He now leads a normal life & doesn't have to watch his back.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 12:14:33 PM
Running away from your problems doesnt make them go away. The stigma goes away if you contiue to do the right thing for a long time. I know leaders in certain industries who won lifetime achievement awards from the industry after living my exact story. So running away is easier than hard work, I get that. But where is the growth in character and being a normal functioning member of society when you dont deal with your issues amd just run away an hide from them.

I said it before and it bears repeating. As bad as life is now I wiuld do it again to get where I am today. Not afraid to deal with situations and tackle life head on are very high on my priority list today. I have a better relationship with my wife and my kids. I have a difderent appreciation of what is really important in life. I can see through BS much easier.

There are infinite possibilities when someone is abstinent and in recovery that cannot be had when one is in the throes of an addiction.
Did you start a career as a motivational speaker?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 12:15:47 PM
Why did you do this? Are you really that stupid? Didn't you think about our kids? OK I have calmed down. We will get through this as a family.
If only that would be so fast and stress free as reading your post.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 04, 2017, 12:18:22 PM
I happened to bump into someone today who had fled the country & decided to return & do his time. He now leads a normal life & doesn't have to watch his back.
Probably a better quality of life after doing the time.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 04, 2017, 12:18:58 PM
Did you start a career as a motivational speaker?
Could probably do quite well on the speaking circuit.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on December 04, 2017, 12:19:31 PM
SM?
negative
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: beeweegee on December 04, 2017, 12:19:48 PM
Thats every day since, multiple times a day.
I'm curious how much of an exaggeration this is (or isn't).
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 12:24:26 PM
I believe I could properly guess your answer to this, but maybe for some of the "children that play around here" the question needs to be asked.

If there was a hypothetical scenario where you could do the same thing for a much greater financial reward (pick your own multiplier - the sky is the limit), and a very limited or non-existant penal consequence, would you do it?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on December 04, 2017, 12:25:37 PM
I believe I could properly guess your answer to this, but maybe for some of the "children that play around here" the question needs to be asked.

If there was a hypothetical scenario where you could do the same thing for a much greater financial reward (pick your own multiplier - the sky is the limit), and a very limited or non-existant penal consequence, would you do it?
It's easy to answer no when the question is only hypothetical.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 12:30:15 PM
I'm curious how much of an exaggeration this is (or isn't).
She doesnt let me forget and sometimes the stress is so great she makes sure i remember. But that is all part of it. Most timea i myself say "I know I did this to us and we will get through this. I'm sorry."

Of course its an exaggeration. No one wants to live with a nag and a person who cannot see the positive as well.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: JoeyShmoe on December 04, 2017, 12:30:52 PM
For me its what i needed to break the cycle. For some people it breaks them. Others dont learn their lesson. I know someone who was in the Otisville Camp and was caught smuggling contarband. In Fort Dix, his next stop he had a cell phone provided by the guards. Some people dont know which way is straight.
Redacted...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 12:32:41 PM
I believe I could properly guess your answer to this, but maybe for some of the "children that play around here" the question needs to be asked.

If there was a hypothetical scenario where you could do the same thing for a much greater financial reward (pick your own multiplier - the sky is the limit), and a very limited or non-existant penal consequence, would you do it?
Lets say this. When i was practicing law, before all this happened, I used to kid that I would give up my law license for $10MM and no jail time. I gave it up for a lot less and went to jail. Yes it helps when there ia money waiting for you when you come out. But that wasnt the case. I started at -$3MM.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 12:43:24 PM
It's easy to answer no when the question is only hypothetical.
Given @hvaces42 responses and courage so far, I doubt he will just opt for the easy answer.

Lets say this. When i was practicing law, before all this happened, I used to kid that I would give up my law license for $10MM and no jail time. I gave it up for a lot less and went to jail. Yes it helps when there ia money waiting for you when you come out. But that wasnt the case. I started at -$3MM.
And today, after your personal journey, if you were to be transplanted to the same situation, and you would have to answer the question honestly, without kidding, what would you say?

After knowing prior bosses that did time, I said to my wife that I wouldn't be willing to accept any sum in exchange for my kids seeing their father being taken away in handcuffs (and as a friend told me when I was facing a certain business/financial issue - any problem that could be solved with money, isn't really a problem). It's easy to say things when not faced with the נסיונות, you repeatedly say that your experience has taken you to a new place (paraphrasing). My question to you is from your current perch, given the hypothetical scenario, what would you honestly say?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: JoeyShmoe on December 04, 2017, 12:45:24 PM
Shhh...no names.
+1.  Dont discuss people that are not here to defend their actions.   Even if you don't see any logic behind their actiond.  I actually know who ur talking about. But i think this thread should stay clean in order it to be a good outcome rather than a bunch of Loshon hora, which it can easily happen unfortunately with everyone knowing someone...

I redacted my post, please remove it from the quote (no need to remove the response :) )
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 12:47:45 PM
Given @hvaces42 responses and courage so far, I doubt he will just opt for the easy answer.
And today, after your personal journey, if you were to be transplanted to the same situation, and you would have to answer the question honestly, without kidding, what would you say?

After knowing prior bosses that did time, I said to my wife that I wouldn't be willing to accept any sum in exchange for my kids seeing their father being taken away in handcuffs (and as a friend told me when I was facing a certain business/financial issue - any problem that could be solved with money, isn't really a problem). It's easy to say things when not faced with the נסיונות, you repeatedly say that your experience has taken you to a new place (paraphrasing). My question to you is from your current perch, given the hypothetical scenario, what would you honestly say?
I cherish my freedom. No amount of money can get me to say I would do that again. You cannot place a value on freedom. Its sounds trite but when you have had your liberty taken and you cant scratch an itch on your nose because your hands are cuffed behind your back (true story) you value even that little luxury.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 01:23:48 PM
I cherish my freedom. No amount of money can get me to say I would do that again. You cannot place a value on freedom. Its sounds trite but when you have had your liberty taken and you cant scratch an itch on your nose because your hands are cuffed behind your back (true story) you value even that little luxury.
Is it only about the freedom?

So would you do the same thing for a guaranteed $10MM and guaranteed no jail time? (or to rephrase this: no penalty in עולם הזה, and a guarantee that we are out of golus while you are still בעולם הזה).
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 01:26:10 PM
For 1mm I would do a year on a FCI.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 04, 2017, 01:27:27 PM
For 1mm I would do a year on a FCI.
You nuts?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 01:27:42 PM
If only that would be so fast and stress free as reading your post.
Stress might be the worst part.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 01:28:11 PM
Is it only about the freedom?

So would you do the same thing for a guaranteed $10MM and guaranteed no jail time? (or to rephrase this: no penalty in עולם הזה, and a guarantee that we are out of golus while you are still בעולם הזה).
Obviously the moral compass is readjusted as well. Same reason I dont enter drawings or take free door prizes. Taking something for free always has consequences and a price.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 01:28:45 PM
You nuts?
I have been told that but I donít think so.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: JoeyShmoe on December 04, 2017, 01:29:51 PM
For 1mm I would do a year on a FCI.
Being very well acquainted with someone who did time in an FCI and based on his statement, I highly doubt it. Even if FCIs are relatively a walk in the park, you're still not home, don't get to chat with your friends and family, and are constantly reminded of that. I don't think it pays for $1MM...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on December 04, 2017, 01:32:52 PM
For 1mm I would do a year on a FCI.
1. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that exgingy is asking about the moral/ethical issues with the underlying crime, not so much whether the money is worth it.

2. Would you say the same thing 75 ( ) years ago when your kids were younger and needed you at home?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 04, 2017, 01:34:19 PM
For 1mm I would do a year on a FCI.
So, how much for Rikers?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: pixi on December 04, 2017, 01:36:42 PM
Most people would go to prison for guaranteed money, someone would do it for 1 million (@chaimMoskowitz) someone for 10 million and someone for 10 Billion, at the end of the day there is a price that you'd be willing to go.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 01:36:55 PM
For 1mm I would do a year on a FCI.
Camp or lockup?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 01:41:39 PM
1. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that exgingy is asking about the moral/ethical issues with the underlying crime, not so much whether the money is worth it.

Or rather, is there a dollar value at which you would be willing to compromise your morals?

That question reads way too short for the serious consideration that should be given in answering it, and I'm not sure how many people can truthfully answer that question.

[relevant joke withheld - available via PM with proof of age ;)]
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 01:42:38 PM
So, how much for Rikers?
Doesn't the Windy City have an equivalent?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on December 04, 2017, 01:49:09 PM


I'm not sure how many people can truthfully answer that qquestion

It's easy to answer no when the question is only hypothetical.

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 01:52:05 PM
Or rather, is there a dollar value at which you would be willing to compromise your morals?

That question reads way too short for the serious consideration that should be given in answering it, and I'm not sure how many people can truthfully answer that question.

I would hope that everyone would answer that in the negativebor at least endeavors to answer is in that fashion. My bracha is you should never be tested.

In that vein one of the suggestions to stay abstinent in GA is "Don test or tempt yourself, dont go in or near gambling establishments, dont associate with people who gamble. Dont gamble for anything."
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 01:53:55 PM
Being very well acquainted with someone who did time in an FCI and based on his statement, I highly doubt it. Even if FCIs are relatively a walk in the park, you're still not home, don't get to chat with your friends and family, and are constantly reminded of that. I don't think it pays for $1MM...
He was in the camp, not behind the fence. He was broken when he went in and i believe he is more broken now.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: JoeyShmoe on December 04, 2017, 01:58:51 PM
He was in the camp, not behind the fence. He was broken when he went in and i believe he is more broken now.
I thought FCI by definition meant the camp, guess I was wrong. Either way if camp was that bad I can't imagine how bad it would be behind bars
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on December 04, 2017, 02:03:22 PM
Or rather, is there a dollar value at which you would be willing to compromise your morals?
I think there needs to be a crime defined here in order to answer this question.

I'm pretty sure I would commit $10mm tax fraud if I knew I would get away with it.

I'd like to think that for no amount of money would I create a ponzi scheme ripping off my friends and neighbors. (and I specifically used the word "create" here because I'm talking about something that's designed as a scam from the ground up, not something where I'm already neck deep by the time I realize it's turned into a ponzi scheme.)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: beeweegee on December 04, 2017, 02:04:03 PM
Or rather, is there a dollar value at which you would be willing to compromise your morals?

That question reads way too short for the serious consideration that should be given in answering it, and I'm not sure how many people can truthfully answer that question.

[relevant joke withheld - available via PM with proof of age ;)]
The joke that I'm sure is the one you are referring immediately came to my mind as well.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mikeoracle on December 04, 2017, 02:04:42 PM
The joke that I'm sure is the one you are referring immediately came to my mind as well.
Starring Michael D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 02:09:42 PM
 let's try this theoretical scenario you can get away with $100,000 tax fraud one time. Then the next time there's a 10% chance you can get caught. Same dollar amount. Could you hold yourself back at some point from doing it.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 02:12:02 PM
2. Would you say the same thing 75 ( ) years ago when your kids were younger and needed you at home?
You mean when I was working 60-70hrs/wk and they never saw me? H*ll yes.
So, how much for Rikers?
No amount!!!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 02:14:25 PM
Doesn't the Windy City have an equivalent?
I would say not as bad.
Camp or lockup?
Camp, lockup would bring a higher price.  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 02:15:36 PM
You mean when I was working 60-70hrs/wk and they never saw me? H*ll yes.No amount!!!
But why says Yingele, it wasnt as bad as I make it out to be.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 02:16:01 PM
I would say not as bad.Camp, lockup would bring a higher price.  :)
That's why you got to Define FCI
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 04, 2017, 02:18:53 PM
Sorry to OT here, but what happened next? Holding by just let on bail...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 02:19:46 PM
 need to get to a computer to write
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 04, 2017, 02:24:42 PM
im offline for 6 hours .... you left me with way to much catching up
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on December 04, 2017, 02:33:29 PM
im offline for 6 hours .... you left me with way to much catching up
This thread is all about putting in the time...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 02:34:45 PM
im offline for 6 hours .... you left me with way to much catching up
Or be unemployed like me with way too much time on my hands.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: helpyouamdme on December 04, 2017, 02:38:35 PM
Or be unemployed like me with way too much time on my hands.
i think it's time for a new thread Next job ideas  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dawie on December 04, 2017, 02:39:08 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1417225/eida-ravaad-hagaon-harav-sternbuch-sitting-prison-poses-ruchniyus-sakona.html
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 04, 2017, 02:40:06 PM
Or be unemployed like me with way too much time on my hands.
After this thread you should consider public motivational speaking... ;-)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 02:40:22 PM
i think it's time for a new thread Next job ideas  :)
Have 3 years to go to get chance at old job. Just needbto get there.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 02:41:20 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1417225/eida-ravaad-hagaon-harav-sternbuch-sitting-prison-poses-ruchniyus-sakona.html
Without reading...asinine.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 02:41:32 PM
But why says Yingele, it wasnt as bad as I make it out to be.
Let him spend a month their then I will listen.  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 02:41:45 PM
Or be unemployed like me with way too much time on my hands.
That's an uneven playing field. We need to get you a job, so we can all get back to work. I'm sure a DO of sorts might be a good start, if you're interested, though it's likely to be very different than other DOs (I've never been to one).
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: helpyouamdme on December 04, 2017, 02:42:25 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1417225/eida-ravaad-hagaon-harav-sternbuch-sitting-prison-poses-ruchniyus-sakona.html
ok after this i think i'm changing my mind and not try to get there  ;)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on December 04, 2017, 02:44:45 PM
We need to get you a job, so we can all get back to work.
I hope so. If I keep this up at the rate I'm going I might be joining him soon (https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji15.png)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 02:46:30 PM
After this thread you should consider public motivational speaking... ;-)
Again, i write better than I speak. Still working on the public speaking though. I also dont feel worthy.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 04, 2017, 02:48:21 PM
Let him spend a month their then I will listen.  :)
After a day there will probably be nothing to listen to.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 04, 2017, 02:48:51 PM
Again, i write better than I speak. Still working on the public speaking though. I also dont feel worthy.
Worthy is relative.  A person that never sat is not worthy to discuss it... But if someone sat and came out with positive ideas and goals then thats what makes them worthy.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: helpyouamdme on December 04, 2017, 02:50:15 PM
try to use speak to type and test yourself if you are the same good if yes consider White house spokesman🎤📣📢🎙
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on December 04, 2017, 02:51:48 PM
I also dont feel worthy.
I'm pretty sure anybody who has read this thread would disagree.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 04, 2017, 02:55:16 PM
@hvaces42  it was almost worth this thread just for the amount of likes you got .who needs a job when they have this many likes to feed their kids!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 04, 2017, 02:56:20 PM
I'm pretty sure anybody who has read this thread would disagree.
+1
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on December 04, 2017, 02:56:48 PM
@hvaces42  it was almost worth this thread just for the amount of likes you got .who needs a job when they have this many likes to feed their kids!
On that note, did @Freddie quit DDF? I'm surprised we haven't heard from him here.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 02:58:49 PM
Again, i write better than I speak. Still working on the public speaking though. I also dont feel worthy.
Public speaking is probably MUCH easier than any addiction program.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 02:59:14 PM
Lets put it this way I'm underemployed. I drive people. I have some steady work. Im barred from the legal field and a court ruling that said shadow-writing for other attorneys is considered practicing law without a license basically killed what i was doing the first few years.

For my experience I'm really doing menial work, which doesnt bother me, as long as I have it. From being a mashgiach, to selling stamps, to ebay arbitrage, to brokering Amazon deals, to deliveries, to long distance driving, nothing is beneath me. I was even able to broker some real estate deals but those have dried up for me as well.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 03:00:23 PM
try to use speak to type and test yourself if you are the same good if yes consider White house spokesman🎤📣📢🎙
There is no back or delete button when you speak. You cannot edit mid-sentence.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 03:00:56 PM
...did @Freddie quit DDF?
Say it ain't so!!!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 03:01:58 PM
Public speaking is probably MUCH easier than any addiction program.
Im not afraidnto speak publicly. I do all the time at my meetings. Its just as a motivational speaker you have to be charismatic. I'm not there yet.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: whYME on December 04, 2017, 03:03:47 PM
Lets put it this way I'm underemployed. I drive people. I have some steady work. Im barred from the legal field and a court ruling that said shadow-writing for other attorneys is considered practicing law without a license basically killed what i was doing the first few years.

For my experience I'm really doing menial work, which doesnt bother me, as long as I have it. From being a mashgiach, to selling stamps, to ebay arbitrage, to brokering Amazon deals, to deliveries, to long distance driving, nothing is beneath me. I was even able to broker some real estate deals but those have dried up for me as well.
Some people might say that with all this, that what you seem to be looking forward rather than backwards would add to your worthiness.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 04, 2017, 03:04:15 PM
you can always write it up and do slide shows
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 04, 2017, 03:06:58 PM
On that note, did @Freddie quit DDF? I'm surprised we haven't heard from him here.
He's still lurking.
I'll see him Wednesday, guess I'll ask if he joined DDFA.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on December 04, 2017, 03:07:03 PM
Obviously the moral compass is readjusted as well. Same reason I dont enter drawings or take free door prizes. Taking something for free always has consequences and a price.
Is that cuz it's a cousin of gambling, as in getting things easy?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 04, 2017, 03:07:03 PM
I'm pretty sure anybody who has read this thread would disagree.
100% agreed.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: skyguy918 on December 04, 2017, 03:07:41 PM
Without reading...asinine.
What's asinine about it?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on December 04, 2017, 03:11:03 PM
What's asinine about it?
Should be titled ďcommitting a crime or illegally protesting poses serious ruchniyus sakonaĒ
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: skyguy918 on December 04, 2017, 03:19:22 PM
Should be titled ďcommitting a crime or illegally protesting poses serious ruchniyus sakonaĒ
I didn't ask you, but it sounds like you think the protesting is asinine, not that calling sitting in jail bad for one's ruchniyos is asinine.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 03:24:10 PM
What's asinine about it?
I'll keep that to myself.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: skyguy918 on December 04, 2017, 03:26:44 PM
I'll keep that to myself.
Umm... okay. You're comfortable saying that it's asinine, but not comfortable explaining why?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 03:32:22 PM
Umm... okay. You're comfortable saying that it's asinine, but not comfortable explaining why?
Yes. I dont think i owe you or anyone else an explanation. Last i checked its a public forum and I'm a member in good standing.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: skyguy918 on December 04, 2017, 03:36:09 PM
Yes. I dont think i owe you or anyone else an explanation. Last i checked its a public forum and I'm a member in good standing.
Of course. But you can't fault me for asking - when you make a comment on this topic, people are gonna give it some weight since you have experience. Unless the comment had nothing to do with the prison/jail part of the article...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on December 04, 2017, 03:38:34 PM
After a day there will probably be nothing to listen to.
34 days...

...The ratio ive heard is that its equivalent to several years in Federal prison.
:P
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 03:41:17 PM
Of course. But you can't fault me for asking - when you make a comment on this topic, people are gonna give it some weight since you have experience. Unless the comment had nothing to do with the prison/jail part of the article...
I know, my response to you was asinine too. Sorry. The challenges one faces in jail b'gashmius are so great that the ruchniyus part is barely a factor. To make that the focus at any point is asinine. I havent gotten to it yet, but plain issues of shabbos, kashrus, tefilla are a challenge all the time. Here he is trying to save souls with tbat statments. Asinine.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 03:43:36 PM
I know, my response to you was asinine too. Sorry. The challenges one faces in jail b'gashmius are so great that the ruchniyus part is barely a factor. To make that the focus at any point is asinine. I havent gotten to it yet, but plain issues of shabbos, kashrus, tefilla are a challenge all the time. Here he is trying to save souls with tbat statments. Asinine.
But if you would actually read the article, you would see that he's talking about something very specific in ERETZ YISROEL, where supposedly Shabbos, Kashrus and Tefillah are nowhere near the challenge they were for you. It's the problem with descriptive titles/links, you think you know what it's about without reading the actual article.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 03:45:09 PM
But if you would actually read the article, you would see that he's talking about something very specific in ERETZ YISROEL, where supposedly Shabbos, Kashrus and Tefillah are nowhere near the challenge they were for you. It's the problem with descriptive titles/links, you think you know what it's about without reading the actual article.
Thats what they tell you too, but its just as challenging there. I knew it was about EY.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on December 04, 2017, 03:45:19 PM
A family member of mine spent a day in מגרש הרוסים...  :-X
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 03:48:32 PM
A family member of mine spent a day in מגרש הרוסים...  :-X
Was he short, fat, with red wild brisker peyos...someone pleade post the poster child of the current hafganot...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on December 04, 2017, 03:48:47 PM
I know, my response to you was asinine too. Sorry. The challenges one faces in jail b'gashmius are so great that the ruchniyus part is barely a factor. To make that the focus at any point is asinine. I havent gotten to it yet, but plain issues of shabbos, kashrus, tefilla are a challenge all the time. Here he is trying to save souls with tbat statments. Asinine.
That article was about the bochurim arrested for protesting that danced from protest till after they were released. Not the average guy going to jail.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 03:49:42 PM
That article was about the bochurim arrested for protesting that danced from protest till after they were released. Not the average guy going to jail.
And that affects their ruchniyos? Theyre insane. שוטה is פטור from any ruchniyos issues.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: skyguy918 on December 04, 2017, 03:56:09 PM
That article was about the bochurim arrested for protesting that danced from protest till after they were released. Not the average guy going to jail.
And that affects their ruchniyos? Theyre insane. שוטה is פטור from any ruchniyos issues.
So bottom line, neither of you actually think what he said was asinine in and of itself - you think the protesting is asinine, and so the whole ensuing discussion around it is of course asinine. Accurate?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 03:58:39 PM
So bottom line, neither of you actually think what he said was asinine in and of itself - you think the protesting is asinine, and so the whole ensuing discussion around it is of course asinine. Accurate?
Protests are disingenuous. Thats all i have on that.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on December 04, 2017, 04:00:31 PM
So bottom line, neither of you actually think what he said was asinine in and of itself - you think the protesting is asinine, and so the whole ensuing discussion around it is of course asinine. Accurate?
Where were the buchorim kept ? With common criminals or not ? If they were kept in a separate place where they could sing and dance all day I highly doubt their ruchniyus was affected at all. Probably had the reverse effect. :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: skyguy918 on December 04, 2017, 04:06:21 PM
Where were the buchorim kept ? With common criminals or not ? If they were kept in a separate place where they could sing and dance all day I highly doubt their ruchniyus was affected at all. Probably had the reverse effect. :)
I don't know, but I don't see why you would assume one way or the other to establish your opinion on the matter.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 04, 2017, 04:18:34 PM
And that affects their ruchniyos? Theyre insane. שוטה is פטור from any ruchniyos issues.
That can be said about many people who go to prison for all sorts of reasons. IIRC you've said similar things about yourself at the time.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 04:20:19 PM
That can be said about many people who go to prison for all sorts of reasons. IIRC you've said similar things about yourself at the time.
מודה אני
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on December 04, 2017, 04:27:57 PM
Was he short, fat, with red wild brisker peyos...someone pleade post the poster child of the current hafganot...
Part of the description is on the mark, but no. It was 20 something years ago.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: JoeyShmoe on December 04, 2017, 04:34:33 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1417225/eida-ravaad-hagaon-harav-sternbuch-sitting-prison-poses-ruchniyus-sakona.html
The headline is definitely asinine...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: lubaby on December 04, 2017, 04:52:08 PM
The headline is definitely asinine...
Click-bait
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 04:57:14 PM
Are we done with this nonsense? Can we get back to the story? I am waiting to find out the services for protection part.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 04:59:31 PM
Are we done with this nonsense? Can we get back to the story? I am waiting to find out the services for protection part.
Wasnt as lurid as you're betting on or hoping for.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 05:00:57 PM
Wasnt as lurid as you're betting on or hoping for.
NO BETTING!!!  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 05:02:35 PM
NO BETTING!!!  :)
Everybody lets welcome Chaim M, he is our newest member. Sit tight and we will get to you soon. Lets start reading the yellow book...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Ergel on December 04, 2017, 05:13:54 PM
If the coin would have landed the other way (in your favor) a few more times, do you think you ever would have stopped? Or was this outcome inevitable?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 04, 2017, 05:15:00 PM
If the coin would have landed the other way (in your favor) a few more times, do you think you ever would have stopped? Or was this outcome inevitable?
How could it not have been inevitable?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Ergel on December 04, 2017, 05:18:49 PM
How could it not have been inevitable?
Let's say he made a million dollars. Or ten million. Does he think he would have stopped at some point
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 05:19:01 PM
If the coin would have landed the other way (in your favor) a few more times, do you think you ever would have stopped? Or was this outcome inevitable?
Of course it was inevitable. I could have done so much more damage. BH I stopped when I did.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 05:22:04 PM
If the coin would have landed the other way (in your favor) a few more times, do you think you ever would have stopped? Or was this outcome inevitable?
Based on what we've heard so far, I am guessing it could have only been worse.

Fool yourself not. As clearly stated above, this was a case of addiction. Having "success" in gambling addiction can only make the outcome worse. Probably similar to any addiction.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 05:23:07 PM
Let's say he made a million dollars. Or ten million. Does he think he would have stopped at some point
Addicts just don't stop out of the blue.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 05:25:02 PM
Addicts just don't stop out of the blue.
As evidenced by people constantly posting on DDF. Has any DDFer just stopped out of the blue?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 05:26:43 PM
As evidenced by people constantly posting on DDF. Has any DDFer just stopped out of the blue?
Yes!  :P
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 04, 2017, 05:27:15 PM
As evidenced by people constantly posting on DDF. Has any DDFer just stopped out of the blue?
I have never been so addicted as now that someone is discussing his past addiction... lol
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 05:28:15 PM
Addicts just don't stop out of the blue.
I have yet to meet an addict in my 7 years who came into 12 step meeting saying he was just tired and had too much money in his pockets and wanted to stop.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 05:28:45 PM
Yes!  :P
There's an expression in Hebrew that says פראיירים לא מתים, הם רק מתחלפים.

Essentially, they don't just stop out of the blue, they just change names.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 04, 2017, 05:30:39 PM
Yes!  :P
Cases in point HM, CV, JTZ, etc.

Even Chaim was able to hold out for quite some time before he regressed.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 04, 2017, 05:32:11 PM
Let's say he made a million dollars. Or ten million. Does he think he would have stopped at some point
Mi she'yesh lo manah rotzeh masayim=Ain l'davar sof.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 04, 2017, 05:33:12 PM
Everybody lets welcome Chaim M, he is our newest member. Sit tight and we will get to you soon. Lets start reading the yellow book...
lol
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 05:34:50 PM
lol
I was starting to wonder if anyone got that one.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dawie on December 04, 2017, 05:36:01 PM
I was starting to wonder if anyone got that one.
we are all addicts of some kind
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 04, 2017, 05:42:18 PM
I was starting to wonder if anyone got that one.
He has written enough about GA that it was pretty obvious.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on December 04, 2017, 06:04:13 PM
There's an expression in Hebrew that says פראיירים לא מתים, הם רק מתחלפים.

Essentially, they don't just stop out of the blue, they just change names.
For CM  (https://www.google.com/search?safe=strict&hl=en&as_qdr=all&sout=1&source=hp&ei=QtElWp7gDOWh_QaIy6aoDQ&q=%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D+%D7%9C%D7%90+%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%9D%2C+%D7%94%D7%9D+%D7%A8%D7%A7+%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%97%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%9D+translate&oq=%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D+%D7%9C%D7%90+%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%9D%2C+%D7%94%D7%9D+%D7%A8%D7%A7+%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%97%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%9D+translate&gs_l=psy-ab.3...671088.678967.0.679493.15.10.0.0.0.0.682.1310.5-2.2.0....0...1c.1j2.64.psy-ab..13.2.1309.0..0i19k1j0i22i30i19k1.0.YBm8ZREwrGE)
 :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 04, 2017, 06:17:16 PM
Most people would go to prison for guaranteed money, someone would do it for 1 million (@chaimMoskowitz) someone for 10 million and someone for 10 Billion, at the end of the day there is a price that you'd be willing to go.

No cutoff. אֵין מִספָּר
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on December 04, 2017, 06:26:39 PM
For CM  (https://www.google.com/search?safe=strict&hl=en&as_qdr=all&sout=1&source=hp&ei=QtElWp7gDOWh_QaIy6aoDQ&q=%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D+%D7%9C%D7%90+%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%9D%2C+%D7%94%D7%9D+%D7%A8%D7%A7+%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%97%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%9D+translate&oq=%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D+%D7%9C%D7%90+%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%9D%2C+%D7%94%D7%9D+%D7%A8%D7%A7+%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%97%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%9D+translate&gs_l=psy-ab.3...671088.678967.0.679493.15.10.0.0.0.0.682.1310.5-2.2.0....0...1c.1j2.64.psy-ab..13.2.1309.0..0i19k1j0i22i30i19k1.0.YBm8ZREwrGE)
 :)
BTW, does a פראייר really translate into a sucker?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 04, 2017, 06:31:40 PM
yup
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 06:48:39 PM
BTW, does a פראייר really translate into a sucker?
From Hebrew it probably does. Though that might not be the exclusive translation, and might depend on context.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Moshe123 on December 04, 2017, 07:14:31 PM
Continue the story already!!!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 08:09:58 PM
Sorry at a wedding now. May get to it later.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 09:03:58 PM
After 14 months of back and forth and lawyer changes the Judge offered me a deal. Pay nothing get 1-3 years upstate. Pay $200k get 4 months remand at Rikers and then felony probation (5 years). Pay full amount get 2 months remand at Rikers and then felony probation. These were based on minimum sentences of 6 months and 4 months. I was remanded to Rikers and had a status date 34 days later where the judge would see where i was holding with restitution.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: shlonx on December 04, 2017, 09:07:07 PM
How were you planning on paying back the money?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 04, 2017, 09:08:52 PM
After 14 months of back and forth and lawyer changes the Judge offered me a deal. Pay nothing get 1-3 years upstate. Pay $200k get 4 months remand at Rikers and then felony probation (5 years). Pay full amount get 2 months remand at Rikers and then felony probation. These were based on minimum sentences of 6 months and 4 months. I was remanded to Rikers and had a status date 34 days later where the judge would see where i was holding with restitution.
When u say ďfull amountĒ was that the amount u borrowed from your clients, or the amount your didnít pay back?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 04, 2017, 09:10:38 PM
After 14 months of back and forth and lawyer changes the Judge offered me a deal. Pay nothing get 1-3 years upstate. Pay $200k get 4 months remand at Rikers and then felony probation (5 years). Pay full amount get 2 months remand at Rikers and then felony probation. These were based on minimum sentences of 6 months and 4 months. I was remanded to Rikers and had a status date 34 days later where the judge would see where i was holding with restitution.
Based on your description, if you were given the choice today would you choose the time upstate over Rikers?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 09:13:09 PM
How were you planning on paying back the money?
I didnt have 2 nickels to rub together. Enter מי כעמך ישראל. Some people in shul and my Rov took it upon themselves to raise money. The person agreed to accept a sum for now and wait for the rest later. The money was raised and paid before i went in.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 09:14:35 PM
When u say ďfull amountĒ was that the amount u borrowed from your clients, or the amount your didnít pay back?
Full amount I stole, it wasnt borrowing at that point, from the one client who filed the criminal complaint and testified at the grand jury.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 09:15:39 PM
Based on your description, if you were given the choice today would you choose the time upstate over Rikers?
As I've stated earlier all upstate trips for NYC defendants require passage through rikers.  I would never choose to go upstate.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 04, 2017, 09:16:31 PM
Full amount I stole, it want borrowing at that point, from the one client who filed the criminal complaint and testified at the grand jury.
I know u have a positive outlook on All on it now. But any resentment towards this individual?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: shlonx on December 04, 2017, 09:21:12 PM
Did the authorities freeze/confiscate any of your assets?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 09:46:54 PM
I know u have a positive outlook on All on it now. But any resentment towards this individual?
I'm human, i did. But now think about this...if I were in his position would i have acted the same? Done the same thing as him? I didn't wipe him out, but thay was not justification to steal his money. I apologized to him face to face but that wasnt enough. My best guess is his frum attorney goaded him into reporting it. The attorney testified at the grand jury. What right he had to do that is beyond me. But ok its done. Like I said earlier, יש דין ויש דיין. Not my score to settle.

I needed to go. He was the שליח. Im the one seeking forgiveness. He has nothing to seek forgiveness for from me.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 09:47:56 PM
Did the authorities freeze/confiscate any of your assets?
Hahahah

$7.24 that was left in my TD Ameritrade account.

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 10:00:30 PM
All my decisions were run through GA people and I had support with me at every court appearance. When i was remanded i asked the Court officer to please not handcuff me in front of my wife and he was kind enough to comply. I was taken out a side door in the courtroom and placed in a holding cell right outside the courtroom.

Court officers searched my pockets and basically described what would happen over the next few hours. I took pocket-sized siddur, chumash bamidbar and mesilas yesharim with me along with a handful of candies. I was allowed to keep these items.

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 04, 2017, 10:10:32 PM
Hahahah

$7.24 that was left in my TD Ameritrade account.


I guess you didn't own any real estate.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 10:11:45 PM
I guess you didn't own any real estate.
So they have judgments against me, behind a mortgage that was/is in foreclosure with the property underwater.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 04, 2017, 10:12:26 PM
All my decisions were run through GA people and I had support with me at every court appearance. When i was remanded i asked the Court officer to please not handcuff me in front of my wife and he was kind enough to comply. I was taken out a side door in the courtroom and placed in a holding cell right outside the courtroom.

Court officers searched my pockets and basically described what would happen over the next few hours. I took pocket-sized siddur, chumash bamidbar and mesilas yesharim with me along with a handful of candies. I was allowed to keep these items.
they didn't let tallis and teffilin?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 04, 2017, 10:14:17 PM
Full amount I stole, it wasnt borrowing at that point, from the one client who filed the criminal complaint and testified at the grand jury.
and those that didn't file against you went by without any penalty?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 10:15:13 PM
they didn't let tallis and teffilin?
There is a person, who single handedly does for inmates what all these supposed prisoner advocacy organizations combined dont do. I had met him on the way to court and gave him my tallis and tefillin. He arranged for the chaplain to get it to me the next day.

More on him later.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 10:17:17 PM
and those that didn't file against you went by without any penalty?
There were 3 others whose money i had taken. One refused to make a deal initially and the other 2 worked and continue to work with me. They all get monthly checks, small as they may be but consistently for the last few years.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 04, 2017, 10:24:24 PM
Full amount I stole, it wasnt borrowing at that point, from the one client who filed the criminal complaint and testified at the grand jury.
Did you try settling with him prior? What gain did he have by ratting on you?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 10:26:25 PM
I dont recall whether we went up or down in an elevator. I believe it was down to holding cell area where i was turned over to Dept. Of Corrections officers by the court officers. They searched me again and had me sit on a metal detecting chair.

I ws placed in a cell for new admissions. I was the only one in there at the time. The cell started filling up one by one. There were mutiple cells with different sets of initials above their doors. I didnt know the import of those initials until later. There was screaming and there were fights going on. Spitting and cursing at the guards was normal.

I had grown my beard from pesach until after shavuos when i went in so i was the "Rabbi" to anyone that came into my cell. I had also rehearsed a cover story about mortgage fraud and some scheme to hide the truth if anyone asked.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 10:27:25 PM
Did you try settling with him prior? What gain did he have by ratting on you?
He got a nice chunk of money. His Rebbe was none too happy with him when it became known that he reported me.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 10:34:24 PM
As the cell filled up some low level drug dealer from Utica and Eastern Parkway  ;D started asking me questions. I offered him a candy and we chatted. He had obviously done this before so i had a heads up on what was gonna happen over the next 12 hours.

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 04, 2017, 10:53:44 PM
I dont recall whether we went up or down in an elevator. I believe it was down to holding cell area where i was turned over to Dept. Of Corrections officers by the court officers. They searched me again and had me sit on a metal detecting chair.

I ws placed in a cell for new admissions. I was the only one in there at the time. The cell started filling up one by one. There were mutiple cells with different sets of initials above their doors. I didnt know the import of those initials until later. There was screaming and there were fights going on. Spitting and cursing at the guards was normal.

I had grown my beard from pesach until after shavuos when i went in so i was the "Rabbi" to anyone that came into my cell. I had also rehearsed a cover story about mortgage fraud and some scheme to hide the truth if anyone asked.
What was the going through your head at this point in time?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 10:59:32 PM
What was the going through your head at this point in time?
Survival mode. I couldnt believe it was actually happening. It was surreal. I honestly dont recall what I was thinking other than one minute at a time. The fear was there.

I knew some basic rules. Dont look anyone in the eye. Mind your own business. Keep yoir head down. Dont offer info. Bribe if you can. And make yourself indispensable.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 04, 2017, 11:17:34 PM
Survival mode. I couldnt believe it was actually happening. It was surreal. I honestly dont recall what I was thinking other than one minute at a time. The fear was there.

I knew some basic rules. Dont look anyone in the eye. Mind your own business. Keep yoir head down. Dont offer info. Bribe if you can. And make yourself indispensable.
how did you do that? gave legal advice?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 11:19:39 PM
how did you do that? gave legal advice?
Suggestionss that i could help them with their cases. Not advice per se.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Matzav26 on December 04, 2017, 11:20:32 PM
Wow. Please continue. Im sitting on the end of my seat... This sounds straight out of a novel. It's hard to comprehend that these events actually occured
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 11:22:36 PM
Working now so it will have to wait
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 04, 2017, 11:23:34 PM
After 14 months of back and forth and lawyer changes the Judge offered me a deal. Pay nothing get 1-3 years upstate. Pay $200k get 4 months remand at Rikers and then felony probation (5 years). Pay full amount get 2 months remand at Rikers and then felony probation. These were based on minimum sentences of 6 months and 4 months. I was remanded to Rikers and had a status date 34 days later where the judge would see where i was holding with restitution.
Why did you take 3 instead of 2?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 11:23:48 PM
It's hard to comprehend that these events actually occured
Come again?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: pixi on December 04, 2017, 11:25:53 PM
I'm human, i did. But now think about this...if I were in his position would i have acted the same? Done the same thing as him? I didn't wipe him out, but thay was not justification to steal his money. I apologized to him face to face but that wasnt enough. My best guess is his frum attorney goaded him into reporting it. The attorney testified at the grand jury. What right he had to do that is beyond me. But ok its done. Like I said earlier, יש דין ויש דיין. Not my score to settle.

Nothing in the world can justify his actions.

I needed to go. He was the שליח. Im the one seeking forgiveness. He has nothing to seek forgiveness for from me.

מגלגלן חוב על ידי חייב.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 04, 2017, 11:33:24 PM
Nothing in the world can justify his action
Really nothing? Relax
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: mgarfin on December 04, 2017, 11:34:48 PM
This sounds straight out of a novel. It's hard to comprehend that these events actually occured
Doesn't this happen to hundreds of ppl daily?

I feel very sorry for him but don't think it's a novel.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 04, 2017, 11:34:53 PM
Really nothing? Relax
If offered to get back all money then i totally agree. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 04, 2017, 11:35:45 PM
If offered to get back all money then i totally agree.
Who said he was?  Iím not looking to derail this thread so letís leave it at that
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 04, 2017, 11:36:27 PM
i think its time to say that i will only check this thread every couple of hours - just to avoid the suspense
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: beeweegee on December 04, 2017, 11:40:05 PM
Do you have any professional insight into this? If there are any mental health professionals around, I would like to hear them chime in on this?

I find it hard to accept that it's only about not harming one's self. If you were talking about a single person, that might be true. But I would imagine that a person with a family takes into consideration the harm caused to the family, which is by far greater (even from a secular perspective) than the self harm in employing a "permanent solution to a temporary problem".

You are thinking rationally, a person contemplating suicide is not. Stop imputing proper logical thinking into a person who is thinking about killing themselves to stop physical pain resulting from depression.
In my (mental health) experience, I have come across patients who fit into both of these categories. For example, I treated a young man a few months ago who was ready to drive his car into a cement wall at 80mph off the Garden State Parkway, but told me that he is refraining because it would hurt his parents too much. To preempt the inevitable "it must not have been that bad...", this is a VERY distressed individual in extreme pain.

On the other hand, I'm seeing a girl now who is in a similar boat with constant significant suicidal ideation, but has specifically said to me that despite her close relationship with her sister and her boyfriend, she would kill herself if she chose to, and the thought of them wouldn't affect her were she to get to that point.

Lots to say here, but put briefly, what it comes down to is that close positive relationships in an individual's life can be a very significant deterrent, and many studies have found associations between perceived social support and reduced suicidal thoughts and behavior. However, once a person gets past all that and is at the point where they are "ready" to end it all, it is certainly common for them not to care much about those around them when they are at the level of pain that they are. In other words, the logic makes sense that one's family can work as a deterrent, and it DOES work that way, but ultimately, there are times where a person is beyond that point.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 11:41:33 PM
Why did you take 3 instead of 2?
I didnt take any.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 11:54:28 PM
Doesn't this happen to hundreds of ppl daily?

I feel very sorry for him but don't think it's a novel.
Thousands of people daily. All of them are waiting for me to shut up so they can share their stories.

And your damn right, its no novel. Its real life.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2017, 11:56:16 PM
Who said he was?  Iím not looking to derail this thread so letís leave it at that
He was told he would get every penny back. He didnt want to wait and thought he would get more this way. And he did. So i guess Stalin is always right, the ends do always justify the means.  ::)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 12:02:40 AM
i think its time to say that i will only check this thread every couple of hours - just to avoid the suspense
You can go to sleep. Im done for tonight. The haters can rest up for tomorrows posts. Tell me how good it was and how many others have had the same experience and how I'm just looking for attention and its all made up. Get some rest and think of some more things.  ;D #DDFTHUGLIFE 8)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 05, 2017, 12:06:21 AM
You can go to sleep. Im done for tonight. The haters can rest up for tomorrows posts. Tell me how good it was and how many others have had the same experience and how I'm just looking for attention and its all made up. Get some rest and think of some more things.  ;D #DDFTHUGLIFE 8)
Haters gonna hate. Not much place else for them to go, you're hoarding everyone in this thread
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 12:12:49 AM
Haters gonna hate. Not much place else for them to go, you're hoarding everyone in this thread
Distract them with some click bait about protests in Israel and draw them away.  :D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 05, 2017, 12:13:53 AM
Distract them with some click bait about protests in Israel and draw them away.  :D
LOL! Tried and failed. Next?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: pixi on December 05, 2017, 12:43:31 AM

Really nothing? Relax



He was told he would get every penny back. He didnt want to wait and thought he would get more this way. And he did. So i guess Stalin is always right, the ends do always justify the means.  ::)

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Zkpncs48 on December 05, 2017, 02:04:20 AM
All my decisions were run through GA people and I had support with me at every court appearance. When i was remanded i asked the Court officer to please not handcuff me in front of my wife and he was kind enough to comply. I was taken out a side door in the courtroom and placed in a holding cell right outside the courtroom.

Court officers searched my pockets and basically described what would happen over the next few hours. I took pocket-sized siddur, chumash bamidbar and mesilas yesharim with me along with a handful of candies. I was allowed to keep these items.
love the fact that you took a Mesilas yesharim. Good for you!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 06:20:38 AM
love the fact that you took a Mesilas yesharim. Good for you!
Figired it was about time ro get acquainted with that book.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 05, 2017, 06:36:01 AM
Welcome back, I've been waiting all night
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: sky121 on December 05, 2017, 06:55:59 AM
It helps when you're able to pay nations off to ensure you won't be extradited. But that doesn't mean he didn't live the life of a fugitive, even if it was a plush one.
+1 The loss of the ability to 'go home' even when you're living a nice lifestyle is still a huge loss.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 07:05:18 AM
Welcome back, I've been waiting all night
Another all night bender?

Posting will resume a bit later. Need to make sure I disrupt another workday for most of you.  ;D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: sky121 on December 05, 2017, 07:09:59 AM
I've just caught up with this thread.  I always think it's great when people share stories like this that others have the benefit of gaining from. In the last few years gambling problems in various forms have seemed to grow in my local community. I've been involved with helping out many young couples that got themselves into terrible situations. 

The one thing I've really learned over the years is that when someone has a gambling problem they really do need to be in Gamblers Anounymous and be getting help for their addiction.

It seems in frum communities more than others people are less likely to get help and less likely to talk about their success and recovery.


So even though you're speaking behind a username it's really great to have a member of the community sharing their story.

I'm sure there are others out there that are benefitting from it.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 07:38:15 AM

It seems in frum communities more than others people are less likely to get help and less likely to talk about their success and recovery.

I've been yelling this in the Silent Killer and Opioid Addiction threads with much pushback.

My wife and I have come to the conclusion after 7 years in GA and Gam-Anon that the frum people who come to program dont stay because no one is willing to work with them in the real world (e.g. yeshivas demand full tuition, frum creditors use the worst predatory tactics to collect their money, stigma attached to people with gambling problem). As good as oir community support network is, it is incapable of properly dealing with addicts and does not provide the necessary backbone one needs to be successful in recovery. Without crucial elements of support in our recovery we couldnt have done it. There is also a hard work component that seems to be lacking in our community when it comes to recovery. Everyone wants a magic pill and there is none. It takes time and effort to recover. I cant count how many frum people I've taken to meetings and none of them stay.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 05, 2017, 07:41:47 AM
Haters gonna hate. Not much place else for them to go, you're hoarding everyone in this thread
and kids are gonna play.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Moshe123 on December 05, 2017, 08:00:42 AM
This thread is turning into a Something Fishy TR...
Interesting story. Drawn out. Mad-curious audience.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 05, 2017, 08:28:58 AM
In my (mental health) experience, I have come across patients who fit into both of these categories. For example, I treated a young man a few months ago who was ready to drive his car into a cement wall at 80mph off the Garden State Parkway, but told me that he is refraining because it would hurt his parents too much. To preempt the inevitable "it must not have been that bad...", this is a VERY distressed individual in extreme pain.

On the other hand, I'm seeing a girl now who is in a similar boat with constant significant suicidal ideation, but has specifically said to me that despite her close relationship with her sister and her boyfriend, she would kill herself if she chose to, and the thought of them wouldn't affect her were she to get to that point.

Lots to say here, but put briefly, what it comes down to is that close positive relationships in an individual's life can be a very significant deterrent, and many studies have found associations between perceived social support and reduced suicidal thoughts and behavior. However, once a person gets past all that and is at the point where they are "ready" to end it all, it is certainly common for them not to care much about those around them when they are at the level of pain that they are. In other words, the logic makes sense that one's family can work as a deterrent, and it DOES work that way, but ultimately, there are times where a person is beyond that point.
Thanks for your input. You've clarified a lot, but some questions are left unanswered and further input on the mental health aspects would be greatly appreciated.

On the question of whether addicts love themselves too much to cause harm to themselves as a suicide deterrent, would that still hold true with this (http://www.techtimes.com/articles/216655/20171205/doctor-created-3d-printed-euthanasia-machine-that-can-end-life-painlessly.htm)?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 09:26:34 AM
During my time in the holding cell in the courthouse they served food. Of course I couldnt eat any of it, not that it was edible. In prison they make bread without yeast. Yeast is an essential ingredient in making alcohol. They dont want the prisoners making hootch. So the bread is made with milk. They had a guy tossing bologna sandwiches and peanut butter sandwiches into the cell. I took one just to give to someone else as a small bribe. They also tossed a few single serve cereal bags into the cell. We had water from the sink in the bathroom.

The cell started filling up. We had probably 20 inmates in the cell. The cell was maybe 15'x15'. with benches along the walls. There was also an exposed bathroom with a half wall on each side in case you needed one. To flush the toilet you press a small button. Will try and post pics of what they look like. Have pics from NY Police museum of similar toilets. One of the guys in the cell sat himself on the half wall and played a game of ring toss...he would take cheerios into his mouth and see if he could spit them into the toilet bowl.

I was shmoozing with my newfound buddy and watching all of this out of the corner of my eye. Another guy joined our conversation as well. I the hallway between the cells I saw them leading people out of the other cells. There was a black guy with a big black Yarmulke ?!?! who yell "Shalom" at me. A Russian in another cell yelled, "Vos Machstu". Surreal.

We were held there until about 6pm. They were emptying cells one by one and we were one of the last, if not the last one to be emptied. It turns out that all the other cells were from different buildings/facilities at Rikers and thats what the initials over each cell stood for.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 05, 2017, 09:33:53 AM
During my time in the holding cell in the courthouse they served food. Of course I couldnt eat any of it, not that it was edible. In prison they make bread without yeast. Yeast is an essential ingredient in making alcohol. They dont want the prisoners making hootch. So the bread is made with milk. They had a guy tossing bologna sandwiches and peanut butter sandwiches into the cell. I took one just to give to someone else as a small bribe. They also tossed a few single serve cereal bags into the cell. We had water from the sink in the bathroom.

The cell started filling up. We had probably 20 inmates in the cell. The cell was maybe 15'x15'. with benches along the walls. There was also an exposed bathroom with a half wall on each side in case you needed one. To flush the toilet you press a small button. Will try and post pics of what they look like. Have pics from NY Police museum of similar toilets. One of the guys in the cell sat himself on the half wall and played a game of ring toss...he would take cheerios into his mouth and see if he could spit them into the toilet bowl.

I was shmoozing with my newfound buddy and watching all of this out of the corner of my eye. Another guy joined our conversation as well. I the hallway between the cells I saw them leading people out of the other cells. There was a black guy with a big black Yarmulke ?!?! who yell "Shalom" at me. A Russian in another cell yelled, "Vos Machstu". Surreal.

We were held there until about 6pm. They were emptying cells one by one and we were one of the last, if not the last one to be emptied. It turns out that all the other cells were from different buildings/facilities at Rikers and thats what the initials over each cell stood for.
Your writing is great. Every detail is helping with visualization. Keep Em coming
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 05, 2017, 09:37:16 AM
How did you go about kosher, did they give you a kosher sandwich?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 09:40:44 AM
How did you go about kosher, did they give you a kosher sandwich?
I didnt get to Rikers yet. There is no kosher option. I was warned, dont expect to eat or sleep for 24 hours from when i came into the courthouse through processing at Rikers. Thats why i prepared candies. Sugar is a good source of energy.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: cmey on December 05, 2017, 11:04:25 AM
Initially I vacillated between the feeling that white collar crime didnít deserve harsh sentencing, and the thought that perhaps if I had lost my life savings and my life had been changed forever as a victim, I would feel differently. The more I read, the more I am convinced that no one deserves to be treated in such a cruel, inhuman way, with such disregard of basic human dignity. It is little wonder that the rate of recidivism is so high when the inmates are conditioned to a constant existence in survival mode. I would guess that most of those who go through the system are not literate or articulate enough to describe their experience. If there were greater awareness there would doubtless be more advocacy in the frum world for our brethren who are suffering, as well as political pressure on the powers that be to change the system. You seem to be a talented, compelling, and descriptive  writer. If you were able to convey your experience beyond this forum (book form?), it would probably have an impact.

It is admirable that you worked have worked so hard and continue to work hard to turn your life around to such a degree. I think you deserve a lot of credit for what you have managed to do. Hopefully your story can inspire many others who still have a long road ahead of them.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 05, 2017, 11:12:02 AM
I didnt get to Rikers yet. There is no kosher option. I was warned, dont expect to eat or sleep for 24 hours from when i came into the courthouse through processing at Rikers. Thats why i prepared candies. Sugar is a good source of energy.
Interesting, I thought the candies where for making friends.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 05, 2017, 11:13:07 AM
Interesting, I thought the candies where for making friends.
Both.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: beeweegee on December 05, 2017, 11:30:26 AM
Thanks for your input. You've clarified a lot, but some questions are left unanswered and further input on the mental health aspects would be greatly appreciated.

On the question of whether addicts love themselves too much to cause harm to themselves as a suicide deterrent, would that still hold true with this (http://www.techtimes.com/articles/216655/20171205/doctor-created-3d-printed-euthanasia-machine-that-can-end-life-painlessly.htm)?
I'm not sure what you mean by "addicts love themselves too much to cause harm to themselves." Do you mean that they value their life too much to end it, or do you mean that they are too afraid of the physical pain generally associated with suicide attempts (taking emotional pain to family and friends out of the picture for the moment)? Both of the above options can work as a deterrent. In the first scenario, a person is in severe distress and is contemplating/thinking about contemplating, etc. suicide, yet won't actually go through with it because their life is too valuable to them, knowing the potential they have, etc. If that is the case, a pain-free death machine is irrelevant. The deterrent is the permanency of death while acknowledging that they have more to live for. If you refer to the latter, then it is certainly possible that it will make people more likely to commit suicide, but that doesn't relate to "loving themselves too much." It refers to the fear of physical pain.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 11:58:03 AM
Interesting, I thought the candies where for making friends.
Dual purpose candies. They also were good for bad breath. 🤔
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 05, 2017, 01:38:40 PM
Nu?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: sky121 on December 05, 2017, 01:52:18 PM
I've been yelling this in the Silent Killer and Opioid Addiction threads with much pushback.

My wife and I have come to the conclusion after 7 years in GA and Gam-Anon that the frum people who come to program dont stay because no one is willing to work with them in the real world (e.g. yeshivas demand full tuition, frum creditors use the worst predatory tactics to collect their money, stigma attached to people with gambling problem). As good as oir community support network is, it is incapable of properly dealing with addicts and does not provide the necessary backbone one needs to be successful in recovery. Without crucial elements of support in our recovery we couldnt have done it. There is also a hard work component that seems to be lacking in our community when it comes to recovery. Everyone wants a magic pill and there is none. It takes time and effort to recover. I cant count how many frum people I've taken to meetings and none of them stay.
I don't 100% understand the connection. Why the community not being willing able to work with them causes them to forget everything and leave GA. 



I've seen many people slip even 10, 20 years later when they thought they were fine.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 02:02:41 PM
Nu?
Contrary to popular belief likes do not feed my family, yet
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 05, 2017, 02:06:30 PM
Contrary to popular belief likes to not feed my family, yet
I think at this point it should. Lol.  Just like many HT's...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 02:25:48 PM
I don't 100% understand the connection. Why the community not being willing able to work with them causes them to forget everything and leave GA. 



I've seen many people slip even 10, 20 years later when they thought they were fine.
If people don't have the support they need from the community it makes life that much harder to deal with. Someone who does not live in the Jewish community and goes to one of these programs relies on the program more heavily than a frum person does.

A frum person counts on their Community to be more compassionate particularly when it comes to food for Yom tov, tuition, getting kids into schools etcetera etcetera. For instance, When a school makes it difficult for a kid to stay because the parents can't pay tuition and that kid comes from a family where one of the parents is an addict that just adds pressure to the addict.

Your second statement is so true the operative word there is THOUGHT they were fine. Once an addict always an addict. The disease can only be arrested it cannot be cured.

CM I don't want to hear it...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 05, 2017, 02:32:07 PM
Contrary to popular belief likes to not feed my family, yet
We need to teach you the recipe.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 05, 2017, 03:53:59 PM

CM I don't want to hear it...
:-X
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: daybyday on December 05, 2017, 05:02:23 PM
Contrary to popular belief likes do not feed my family, yet
Honestly your writing is very impressive, you should consider making this collection of thoughts into a book or maybe a article.
I always knew prison / jail was bad, but your vivid descriptions give it a much more real meaning.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 05:03:28 PM
Thank you
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Moshe123 on December 05, 2017, 05:44:21 PM
Next installment!!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 05:46:52 PM
Next installment!!
Busy day. Maybe later.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 06:34:32 PM
Short Installment Have PTA tonight.

Around 6pm we were escorted out two by two. Each of us was cuffed to the other. My right hand to someone's left hand. Who do I get cuffed to...the guy who was playing the cheerios toilet game. Total mental case. We get taken down to the buses which were parked in the basement of the Courthouse.

The buses are those ubiquitous white Corrections buses you see all over NY, especially if you've flown into LGA as Rikers is the next exit off the Grand Central Pkwy. They are school buses with either the front half or back half with windows and the other half just sheet metal panels. The brand new admissions, of which I was, were given choice seats, without windows, in our own cage that surrounds each of the seats up front. So it was me and mental case in a cage together for the ride to Rikers in rush hour traffic.

The back was reserved for returning inmates and was just one big open area walled off with a gate. I'm a bit claustrophobic. Sitting in a cage, in a hot bus, in the basement of the courthouse with the bus spewing its fumes was very challenging. I had to summon all my courage not to have a panic attack. I just told myself to breathe normally and this will be over soon. We spent an hour or so driving to Rikers.

My arrival at Rikers evoked in my mind the stories I've read and heard of the roundups in Europe. Not to belittle them or even attempt to compare. (Sorry haters) It wasnt quite shouts of "Raus" but the herding mentality, the frightfully huge Corrections officers (CO's), the stench, the grime. Yuck. I had truly never seen such large human beings. Men and women whose width and girth were just gargantuan. Average height but wider than any linebacker by a factor of 2, and thicker too. Scary.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 05, 2017, 07:04:23 PM
Now we should be getting to the good parts.  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 05, 2017, 07:14:03 PM
I'm a bit claustrophobic. Sitting in a cage, in a hot bus, in the basement of the courthouse with the bus spewing its fumes was very challenging
Is this the only time you had this issue?

 When i think of prison i think claustrophobia.  I was once stuck in a 3x3 elevator stuffed with 5 guys. Ever since I have issues using even an elevator  :-\
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 07:22:55 PM
Now we should be getting to the good parts.  :)
I went for a short time and came home. THE END... ::)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 05, 2017, 07:24:37 PM
I went for a short time and came home. THE END... ::)
I have never been so inspired. Now that you're done, @ChaimMoskowitz will get started
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 07:26:25 PM
I have never been so inspired. Now that you're done, @ChaimMoskowitz will get started
Hahaha...will try soon.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on December 05, 2017, 07:26:49 PM
What do they do for the ones who do have a panic attack ? Do they even care ?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 05, 2017, 07:28:51 PM
What do they do for the ones who do have a panic attack ? Do they even care ?
Shot in the dark here, but I'd say they probably don't give a rats rear end.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 07:41:00 PM
Shot in the dark here, but I'd say they probably don't give a rats rear end.
+1000000000
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 05, 2017, 07:43:09 PM
What was the ratio of CO to people on bus.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 05, 2017, 07:43:22 PM
Maybe I'm alone here, but I think what has drawn me to this thread, is less the prison experience, but more the outlook you, @hvaces42 have/had throughout. The storyline is interesting, but doesn't hit me the way you seem to genuinely believe what you're saying, not just saying it because "that's what people in this situation say". The way you put things actually provokes thoughts within others to put their lives in prospective. While I can only speak for myself, I'd assume most of us aren't and weren't in situations anything like this one, but we all face challenges and tests in some shape or size, that these lessons can be adapted to. I just want to say thank you, for inspiring me, a person not always so easily inspired. I'm sure it gets better as it goes on, but I've already taken more from this thread, than I've taken from many books, speeches, etc. Nobody should have to live hell on earth, but thank g-d when those who do, can do something like this with that miserable experience. Kudos.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on December 05, 2017, 07:47:06 PM
+1000000000
What happens after an attack, it just goes away on its own ?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 05, 2017, 07:48:14 PM
Maybe I'm alone here, but I think what has drawn me to this thread, is less the prison experience, but more the outlook you, @hvaces42 have/had throughout.
your not alone, I have same feeling.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 07:49:16 PM
What was the ratio of CO to people on bus.
One driver, one riding shotgun...literally. maybe 30 prisoners.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 07:49:41 PM
What happens after an attack, it just goes away on its own ?
BH didnt have one.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 07:50:16 PM
Maybe I'm alone here, but I think what has drawn me to this thread, is less the prison experience, but more the outlook you, @hvaces42 have/had throughout. The storyline is interesting, but doesn't hit me the way you seem to genuinely believe what you're saying, not just saying it because "that's what people in this situation say". The way you put things actually provokes thoughts within others to put their lives in prospective. While I can only speak for myself, I'd assume most of us aren't and weren't in situations anything like this one, but we all face challenges and tests in some shape or size, that these lessons can be adapted to. I just want to say thank you, for inspiring me, a person not always so easily inspired. I'm sure it gets better as it goes on, but I've already taken more from this thread, than I've taken from many books, speeches, etc. Nobody should have to live hell on earth, but thank g-d when those who do, can do something like this with that miserable experience. Kudos.
Thanks
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 05, 2017, 07:51:03 PM
One driver, one riding shotgun...literally. maybe 30 prisoners.
so they couldn't care less what goes on back there
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on December 05, 2017, 07:51:34 PM
BH didnt have one.
You mustíve encountered many over the years, no ?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 05, 2017, 07:53:09 PM
You mustíve encountered many situations that call for one over the years, no ?
FTFY
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 08:44:04 PM
No only certain situations.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 05, 2017, 09:23:03 PM
As this point of the story line, you literally living the worst there is. What is the mindset as far a g-d is concerned? I would imagine itís a hard time to be faithful.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 05, 2017, 09:28:42 PM
or too busy surviving to think about faith..
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 05, 2017, 09:35:01 PM
As this point of the story line, you literally living the worst there is. What is the mindset as far a g-d is concerned? I would imagine itís a hard time to be faithful.
To the contrary. People tend to turn to gd in foxholes. It's when the going is good that he is forgotten.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 09:38:19 PM
As this point of the story line, you literally living the worst there is. What is the mindset as far a g-d is concerned? I would imagine itís a hard time to be faithful.
I have no real thoughts on that right now. It was survival first. Really dont think I was thinking about G-d or bargaining.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 10:20:01 PM
Processing meant all of us plus another 2 or 3 bus loads crammed in a cell and called by name to take pic for ID and fingerprints. We were then transferred into a larger cell. While the processing went on an alarm sounded and we were on lockdown. Guards, known as "turtles", and they looked like Ninja Turtles with umpire padding, baseball helmets and football facemasks, with batons, went around a bend and we heard a commotion. Some inmate was misbehaving and being violent. They got that under control rather quickly and it was back to processing.

They vouchered my jacket and took my watch. I got a piece of paper with my classification. It was a low classification based on my crime and my priors. I was placed in another cell with about 60 inmates and thats when the fun started. When I say cell I mean the type you see in the old Westerns. Dank, decrepit you dont want to touch any surface with an exposed hand, open air toilet. 

All night I'm hearing "who has a battery?" A guy in a single cell across from us passes a AA battery across the floor right behind a guards back under the bars. The next thing I know there is a guy sitting over the toilet and the toilet is surrounded by a few guys while others are distracting the guards. One guy reaches up to an electrical outlet where a clock used to be hung and uses the battery, a paperclip and some toilet paper to start a small fire. Meanwhile the guy over the toilet pulled a packet/condom out of...yeah. The joints were then distributed and lit.     

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 10:21:53 PM
The exact order of what happened over the next few hours is a bit of a fog. Will continue later or more likely tomorrow.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 05, 2017, 10:23:58 PM
The joints were then distributed and lit.   

and you brought candies as bribes (https://emojipedia-us.s3.amazonaws.com/thumbs/120/facebook/65/face-with-tears-of-joy_1f602.png)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 10:26:16 PM
and you brought candies as bribes (https://emojipedia-us.s3.amazonaws.com/thumbs/120/facebook/65/face-with-tears-of-joy_1f602.png)
Let me tell you, joints aint got nothing on candies. Sorry.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 05, 2017, 10:30:39 PM
Processing meant all of us plus another 2 or 3 bus loads crammed in a cell and called by name to take pic for ID and fingerprints. We were then transferred into a larger cell. While the processing went on an alarm sounded and we were on lockdown. Guards, known as "turtles", and they looked like Ninja Turtles with umpire padding, baseball helmets and football facemasks, with batons, went around a bend and we heard a commotion. Some inmate was misbehaving and being violent. They got that under control rather quickly and it was back to processing.

They vouchered my jacket and took my watch. I got a piece of paper with my classification. It was a low classification based on my crime and my priors. I was placed in another cell with about 60 inmates and thats when the fun started. When I say cell I mean the type you see in the old Westerns. Dank, decrepit you dont want to touch any surface with an exposed hand, open air toilet. 

All night I'm hearing "who has a battery?" A guy in a single cell across from us passes a AA battery across the floor right behind a guards back under the bars. The next thing I know there is a guy sitting over the toilet and the toilet is surrounded by a few guys while others are distracting the guards. One guy reaches up to an electrical outlet where a clock used to be hung and uses the battery, a paperclip and some toilet paper to start a small fire. Meanwhile the guy over the toilet pulled a packet/condom out of...yeah. The joints were then distributed and lit.     


hashem yishmor
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 05, 2017, 10:31:14 PM
The exact order of what happened over the next few hours is a bit of a fog. Will continue later or more likely tomorrow.
Anything to do with the joints?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 05, 2017, 10:32:01 PM
Did each person have their own bed/quarter. Or it was one open cell - sleep on floor.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 10:32:30 PM
Anything to do with the joints?
Touche. Never done any recreational drugs in my life.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 10:38:39 PM
Did each person have their own bed/quarter. Or it was one open cell - sleep on floor.
Processing cell was open cell. Very dangerous and volatile. Floor sleepers and bench sleepers. I had a seat on the bench near my buddy from CH. Made friends with some Trini credit card fraud guy and a Mexican Dreamer who I later found out was in for (attempted) rape. Thank goodness for that. In middle of the night some Black Israelite started lecturing me on him being the real Jew and me being Jew-ish. My new buddies told him to knock it off. 

My ultimate lock ups were open dorm-like rooms. More on that later.

At some point we were strip searched and went through metal detector chairs again. Most degrading experience ever. Strip in front of 3 guards. Squat turn your head and cough. I'd love to forget that and every strip search after every visit.   
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 05, 2017, 10:44:30 PM

At some point we were strip searched and went through metal detector chairs again. Most degrading experience ever. Strip in front of 3 guards. Squat turn your head and cough. I'd love to forget that and every strip search after every visit.
Sheesh!  But how did this guy bring in joints of they search "everywhere"? It must have been really way up there lol
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 10:50:12 PM
Sheesh!  But how did this guy bring in joints of they search "everywhere"? It must have been really way up there lol
They seemed to have this down to a science.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2017, 10:51:11 PM
Getting worried that I'm getting caught up in the minutae here. Someone tell me if its boring to hear minor details.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: elit on December 05, 2017, 10:51:56 PM
Getting worried that I'm getting caught up in the minutae here. Someone tell me if its boring to hear minor details.
nope not at all
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on December 05, 2017, 10:52:22 PM
Getting worried that I'm getting caught up in the minutae here. Someone tell me if its boring to hear minor details.
No waaaaaaaay!!!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 05, 2017, 10:56:41 PM
Getting worried that I'm getting caught up in the minutae here. Someone tell me if its boring to hear minor details.
Your writing is great. Every detail is helping with visualization. Keep Em coming
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 05, 2017, 11:06:44 PM
The one thing a SF TR has over this is the pictures
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 05, 2017, 11:10:48 PM
The one thing a SF TR has over this is the pictures
But here you use your imagination.  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on December 05, 2017, 11:13:37 PM
The one thing a SF TR has over this is the pictures
Well, in this case a word is worth a thousand pictures!  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 05, 2017, 11:17:38 PM
The one thing a SF TR has over this is the pictures

Just Google image search
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YossieW on December 05, 2017, 11:22:47 PM
Well, in this case a word is worth a thousand pictures!  :)

 ;)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: TimT on December 05, 2017, 11:26:04 PM
Perhaps TSA searches arenít that bad after all :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Moshke on December 05, 2017, 11:35:15 PM
Getting worried that I'm getting caught up in the minutae here. Someone tell me if its boring to hear minor details.
You don't see all "kids" are listening

Keep it coming...!!!!

Thanks
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: pixi on December 06, 2017, 12:00:17 AM
Getting worried that I'm getting caught up in the minutae here. Someone tell me if its boring to hear minor details.
Not at all, the more details the better, great job so far. Looking forward for more.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Z56 on December 06, 2017, 12:27:07 AM
The one thing a SF TR has over this is the pictures

Lol
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Ergel on December 06, 2017, 01:28:35 AM
Not to be disrespectful, but what opportunities are available to an ex-con lawyer.
I.E. what work do you hope to do if (when) IYH you get your law license back
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 06:27:22 AM
Not to be disrespectful, but what opportunities are available to an ex-con lawyer.
I.E. what work do you hope to do if (when) IYH you get your law license back
Sky's the limit. I BH have former clients who cannot wait for me to get my license back.

I have considered criminal defense work as well.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 06, 2017, 06:46:27 AM
Sky's the limit. I BH have former clients who cannot wait for me to get my license back.

I have considered criminal defense work as well.
Do you think it's unreasonable for people still not to entrust you with funds?

Question is not necessarily a personal one at all, so you don't have to answer. :) More about any recovering addict should a recovering alcoholic be a bar tender?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 07:09:03 AM
Do you think it's unreasonable for people still not to entrust you with funds?

Question is not necessarily a personal one at all, so you don't have to answer. :) More about any recovering addict should a recovering alcoholic be a bar tender?
Of course. However,  if the Appellate Division sees it fit to readmit me, after an investigation into my character and fitness to practice law, I think that's a minor issue. By the time i get my license back it will be at least 8+ years in which I would have hopefully had time to work on myself.

Also, unlike an alcoholic, money was not my vice, gambling was. Tomorrow BH will be 7 years since i placed a bet of any kind. By the time I get my license back it will have been nearly 10 years. I hope I will be good.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 06, 2017, 07:44:40 AM
Also, unlike an alcoholic, money was not my vice, gambling was. Tomorrow BH will be 7 years since i placed a bet of any kind. By the time I get my license back it will have been nearly 10 years. I hope I will be good.
How do you feel, and what would you do if you had power to do (or change) something, about the barrage or culture of raffles, Chinese Auctions and the likes?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: 3yummyboys on December 06, 2017, 07:56:10 AM
Getting worried that I'm getting caught up in the minutae here. Someone tell me if its boring to hear minor details.

Not at all! Thank you so much do sharing. Iím sure itís painful to think about.

You should really compile this to be published. Maybe Iím naive, but perhaps more awareness can be an impetus for change. Itís also such an inspirational story that will give a lot of people chizuk.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: 3yummyboys on December 06, 2017, 07:57:02 AM
The one thing a SF TR has over this is the pictures


I would imagine most of us wouldnít be able to handle the pictures!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 06, 2017, 08:02:09 AM

Also, unlike an alcoholic, money was not my vice, gambling was.
Can you explain this. I am sure some are thinking what is he talking about of course it was about the money.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 08:07:51 AM
How do you feel, and what would you do if you had power to do (or change) something, about the barrage or culture of raffles, Chinese Auctions and the likes?
Stop state sponsored gambling such as the new casinos and the lottery first. So many people have winning the lottery as their retirement plan. I dont buy raffles, lottery tickets, enter super bowl pools, etc. That works for me. When poker comes on TV or an advertisement for the lottery does, I change the channel.

For the first year I stopped watching sports, even though I never bet on a sports game. I found that I dont have the "passion" for sports anymore. I used to sit at home every sunday and watch the Giants. I didnt think I could survive one minute without watching the games from start to finish. I barely listen to 10 minutes of the game these days. They dont care about me, why should I really care about them. Sports fanaticism to me is wanting to be part of something bigger. I am part of something bigger, it is called recovery.

That being said this culture of winning free things is not new. Chazal warned of the dangers of Nahama Dechisufa.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 08:19:40 AM
Not at all! Thank you so much do sharing. Iím sure itís painful to think about.

You should really compile this to be published. Maybe Iím naive, but perhaps more awareness can be an impetus for change. Itís also such an inspirational story that will give a lot of people chizuk.
I've been screaming "AWARENESS" in other threads here and all I've gotten was "It has to be tempered and balanced." I have some choice words for that...but I will say this, being blunt, straight-forward, sometimes crass, are the only things that work. Calling people out on their BS is the only way this works. Mameleh, tateleh, shefeleh zeesa dont work.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 08:24:23 AM

I would imagine most of us wouldnít be able to handle the pictures!
Just imagine every third world image you've seen with dirty folks and dirt roads and kids sitting crouched with a bowl of whatever...thats how it looked. Unimaginable that a place like this exists in the 21st century in America. The images they allow you to see are always sterile hallways.

One image stands out to me. I was asked to deliver some papers to the annex to the building I was in. That building had individual cells as opposed to the 4 dorms per floor building I was in. I came through the door and there was a guy on the floor in the hallways outside the cells bleeding, in pain, begging for help. He had been beaten. By whom, I have no clue.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 08:27:23 AM
Can you explain this. I am sure some are thinking what is he talking about of course it was about the money.
Compulsive gambling is never about the money and always about the action. Win, lose, draw it never really matters as long as you're in the game. Compulsive gamblers gamble to lose. It sounds irrational and sick...and it is. But when the action stops and I was left with money, for instance, after the stock market closed, I couldnt wait to place my next bet. I obsessed over it all night. I was at my computer the minute pre-market trading opened at 8am. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 06, 2017, 08:27:29 AM
I've been screaming "AWARENESS" in other threads here and all I've gotten was "It has to be tempered and balanced." I have some choice words for that...but I will say this, being blunt, straight-forward, sometimes crass, are the only things that work. Calling people out on their BS is the only way this works. Mameleh, tateleh, shefeleh zeesa dont work.
anyone tried that on you?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 08:33:17 AM
[/b]anyone tried that on you?
My wife noticed I had a problem a few months before the proverbial **** hit the fan. We went shopping in PA near the Mount Airy casino. I asked her if we could go for an hour. She agreed. I was betting crazy numbers on blackjack and she couldnt even spend the $40 I gave her for the slots. She came back with $35. When she saw the numbers I was betting she started stealing chips from me. When we left she said "You have a problem." My response was classic..."I can stop whenever I want. I have this under control." If only I did and if only I stopped. I dont think I would be anywhere near where I am today if I actually did stop then.

I will sound like a broken record on this: I needed to hit rock bottom, no money, no career, lose almost everything (BH my wife, kids, and true friends stood beside me) in order for me to get to a better place. A yerida, l'etzorech aliya, sort of.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 06, 2017, 08:55:51 AM
I've been screaming "AWARENESS" in other threads here and all I've gotten was "It has to be tempered and balanced." I have some choice words for that...but I will say this, being blunt, straight-forward, sometimes crass, are the only things that work. Calling people out on their BS is the only way this works. Mameleh, tateleh, shefeleh zeesa dont work.
I really don't want to get into this here, but want to point out that you are bundling together 2 aspects. One is the question of publicity and the other is a question of how to speak to an individual with an issue. They are very different.

This has been discussed extensively in other threads here and this is not the place for the discussion. As such, this will be my last comment on the matter here.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 09:09:46 AM
We know your thoughts on it as well. We have agreed to have different opinions on it.

I do take offense at you changing my words about compulsive gambling to "healing". I dont even know what that means, but to me its indicative of your inability to empathize, or even understand a shemetz of what an addict goes through to recover.

My recovery is not your punchline.   
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 06, 2017, 09:17:10 AM
We know your thoughts on it as well. We have agreed to have different opinions on it.

I do take offense at you changing my words about compulsive gambling to "healing". I dont even know what that means, but to me its indicative of your inability to empathize, or even understand a shemetz of what an addict goes through to recover.

My recovery is not your punchline.   
Chas vsholom I didn't mean it that way and i apologize and edited it. I thought i was more clear than I actually was. I agree that I can't understand it and have said that many times. I should have just kept to what I wrote originally and kept my keyboard shut.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 09:40:09 AM
You confuse emotion with passion. I don't give a rat's rear end if anybody does anything for their own recovery I can only give them the message of my recovery. I'm not responsible for anyone else's recovery. Only my own. I can only share my experience my strength and my hope. So if you feel I'm too emotionally involved maybe in my own world maybe I am. And once again last I checked this is a free country or free to do as they wish I can only give you my suggestion.

Maybe I'm just too sensitive.

Maybe לא תעמוד על דם רעך means something.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 06, 2017, 09:46:49 AM
You confuse emotion with passion. I don't give a rat's rear end if anybody does anything for their own recovery I can only give them the message of my recovery. I'm not responsible for anyone else's recovery. Only my own. I can only share my experience my strength and my hope. So if you feel I'm too emotionally involved maybe in my own world maybe I am. And once again last I checked this is a free country or free to do as they wish I can only give you my suggestion.
The way you understood what I wrote and what I meant are very different and I apologize again. The reason I changed from an edit to just taking out that portion of my post was because I realized that it was unclear and not a good idea to try and clarify it here and now.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: daybyday on December 06, 2017, 09:59:38 AM
its indicative of your inability to empathize, or even understand a shemetz of what an addict goes through to recover.

My recovery is not your punchline.

Well said.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 06, 2017, 11:45:39 AM


Just imagine every third world image you've seen with dirty folks and dirt roads and kids sitting crouched with a bowl of whatever...thats how it looked. Unimaginable that a place like this exists in the 21st century in America. The images they allow you to see are always sterile hallways.

One image stands out to me. I was asked to deliver some papers to the annex to the building I was in. That building had individual cells as opposed to the 4 dorms per floor building I was in. I came through the door and there was a guy on the floor in the hallways outside the cells bleeding, in pain, begging for help. He had been beaten. By whom, I have no clue.

As you said before, it's insane that a place like Rikers is 20 minutes away from Manhattan, a capital of Western civilization. It's the kind of prison you'd expect in Somalia.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on December 06, 2017, 11:47:08 AM

As you said before, it's insane that a place like Rikers is 20 minutes away from Manhattan, a capital of Western civilization. It's the kind of prison you'd expect in Somalia.
Methinks they don't offer glatt kosher food, boxes of matza and kedem grape juice to inmates in Somalia.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 06, 2017, 11:54:32 AM
Quick question. Does money talk in Rikers?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 06, 2017, 11:54:52 AM

As you said before, it's insane that a place like Rikers is 20 minutes away from Manhattan, a capital of Western civilization. It's the kind of prison you'd expect in Somalia.

Manhattan is gross, and typically reminds me of third world countries.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 06, 2017, 11:55:27 AM
Quick question. Does money talk in Rikers?

There's nowhere to MS MOs, if that's what you're asking.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 06, 2017, 11:56:10 AM
Quick question. Does money talk in Rikers?
I'm not speaking from experience, but I was under the impression that money talks in most jails/prisons.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 06, 2017, 11:57:46 AM
There's nowhere to MS MOs, if that's what you're asking.
That's odd because I would always receive MO's from inmates family members.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 06, 2017, 11:59:28 AM
I'm not speaking from experience, but I was under the impression that money talks in most jails/prisons.
Some a lot more than others.
Cook County - 10
MCC - 1
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 06, 2017, 12:03:45 PM
Some a lot more than others.
Cook County - 10
MCC - 1
Money always talks in Chicago
If you need a senate seat let me know.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 06, 2017, 12:10:07 PM
Money always talks in Chicago
MCC is Chicago.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 06, 2017, 12:11:19 PM
MCC is Chicago.
Gotcha, I'm saying there's no proof from those they're in Chicago. Bad joke.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 12:44:51 PM
Methinks they don't offer glatt kosher food, boxes of matza and kedem grape juice to inmates in Somalia.
Was wondering where you disappeared. Were you mandated the last few days? If thats the best you got to justify human rights violations...OINK!!!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 12:47:41 PM
Quick question. Does money talk in Rikers?
In what sense? Western Union gets a lot of business on the outside from transactions on the inside, but they are a cashless society. Commissary money comes from family or work on the inside. There are vouchers for haircuts that you can buy at commissary. Stamps have some value. There are no machines where you can buy sandwiches or other goodies like in FCI Ottisville (and I suppose other FCI's)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 06, 2017, 12:52:51 PM
In what sense? Western Union gets a lot of business on the outside from transactions on the inside, but they are a cashless society. Commissary money comes from family or work on the inside. There are vouchers for haircuts that you can buy at commissary. Stamps have some value. There are no machines where you can buy sandwiches or other goodies like in FCI Ottisville (and I suppose other FCI's)
That covers it.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 06, 2017, 12:59:04 PM
Manhattan is gross, and typically reminds me of third world countries.
Have you never been to Brooklyn?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 06, 2017, 01:02:16 PM
Have you never been to Brooklyn?

Yes,  and I can't believe that is only 20 mins from rikers
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 01:04:55 PM
Yes,  and I can't believe that is only 20 mins from that paradise known as rikers
FTFY
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: daybyday on December 06, 2017, 01:13:19 PM
Manhattan is gross, and typically reminds me of third world countries.

If only i owned one small building in that "grossness"  :D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 06, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
Manhattan is gross, and typically reminds me of third world countries.

Third-world countries remind me of Manhattan.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dawie on December 06, 2017, 01:37:37 PM
Third-world countries remind me of Manhattan.
and Alexandra reminds you of.... ?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 06, 2017, 01:45:30 PM
and Alexandra reminds you of.... ?

An improved La Gaurdia
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 06, 2017, 01:47:59 PM
Third-world countries remind me of Manhattan.
This is sarcasm, correct?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 06, 2017, 01:49:41 PM
This is sarcasm, correct?

It was a response to @henche, I'm not sure there is a category for that
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 06, 2017, 01:52:04 PM
It was a response to @henche, I'm not sure there is a category for that
You are right there is no category for that.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on December 06, 2017, 02:21:14 PM
Was wondering where you disappeared. Were you mandated the last few days? If thats the best you got to justify human rights violations...OINK!!!
You are having your moment. I have no interest in turning a personal redemption story people are learning from into a discussion about the minutiae of incarceration. Again, nobody who works in any jail is happy when people re-offend. If somebody manages to clean up their life, keep their family intact and stay out of trouble, it's the criminal defense attorneys who cry for lack of business, not the jailers. If your posts lead to even one less person being incarcerated, then that is a remarkable thing. I applaud your candor and willingness to share.

In regards to my comment on food, nobody is justifying anything. There was a comparison made between being incarcerated in Somalia vs Rikers. I believe that's an unreasonable assertion and gave some evidence to back up my claim. If you really think they are the same, then say so. The criminal justice system has done a great PR job of laying all the blame at the foot of the Department of Correction when there is no shortage of what to criticize in the court system.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 06, 2017, 02:34:49 PM
You are having your moment. I have no interest in turning a personal redemption story people are learning from into a discussion about the minutiae of incarceration. Again, nobody who works in any jail is happy when people re-offend. If somebody manages to clean up their life, keep their family intact and stay out of trouble, it's the criminal defense attorneys who cry for lack of business, not the jailers. If your posts lead to even one less person being incarcerated, then that is a remarkable thing. I applaud your candor and willingness to share.

In regards to my comment on food, nobody is justifying anything. There was a comparison made between being incarcerated in Somalia vs Rikers. I believe that's an unreasonable assertion and gave some evidence to back up my claim. If you really think they are the same, then say so. The criminal justice system has done a great PR job of laying all the blame at the foot of the Department of Correction when there is no shortage of what to criticize in the court system.
there is enough to blame on the DoC with out looking for other places that have severe issues also. there is no denying by anybody that rikers  is a sub-human place, matza and grape juice not withstanding
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Ergel on December 06, 2017, 02:37:44 PM
Next part of the story please
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 02:50:52 PM
You are having your moment. I have no interest in turning a personal redemption story people are learning from into a discussion about the minutiae of incarceration. Again, nobody who works in any jail is happy when people re-offend. If somebody manages to clean up their life, keep their family intact and stay out of trouble, it's the criminal defense attorneys who cry for lack of business, not the jailers. If your posts lead to even one less person being incarcerated, then that is a remarkable thing. I applaud your candor and willingness to share.

In regards to my comment on food, nobody is justifying anything. There was a comparison made between being incarcerated in Somalia vs Rikers. I believe that's an unreasonable assertion and gave some evidence to back up my claim. If you really think they are the same, then say so. The criminal justice system has done a great PR job of laying all the blame at the foot of the Department of Correction when there is no shortage of what to criticize in the court system.
This is the prison thread, it is not my personal redemption thread and definitely not about me having my moment. I'm way more fascinated by what DoC employees have to tell themselves so they can sleep at night.

If you point a finger at anyone, just remember you have 3 pointing right back at you. Don't blame recidivism, the courts or anything else for the way DoC employees behave.

Yes police have quotas, the prosecutors overcharge, the Court dockets are over full. At the end of the day, DoC is charged with the unenviable job of dealing with the inmates.

The comment about Somalia was obviously tongue in cheek. I havent gotten to the food part. There is much to be said about it, or the lack thereof. Maybe you should try surviving on the glatt meals they served for a month. And the matza and cupnof grape juice once a week.

One incident i will share. We were at religious services, which are mandated once a week (unless of course the facility is on lockdown). We found a casenof macaroons that were left over from pesach, 10 weeks earlier. I cannot tell you the joy amongst the jewish inmates. 1. They were a welcome change from the regular crap and 2. They were a great bargaining tool for other food from the commissary that was no longer available for purchase.

Just let that sink in a minute...pesach food that goes in the garbage the minute pesach is over in your house, is welcomed monrhs later.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 06, 2017, 02:56:38 PM
This is the prison thread, it is not my personal redemption thread and definitely not about me having my moment. I'm way more fascinated by what DoC employees have to tell themselves so they can sleep at night.

If you point a finger at anyone, just remember you have 3 pointing right back at you. Don't blame recidivism, the courts or anything else for the way DoC employees behave.

Yes police have quotas, the prosecutors overcharge, the Court dockets are over full. At the end of the day, DoC is charged with the unenviable job of dealing with the inmates.

The comment about Somalia was obviously tongue in cheek. I havent gotten to the food part. There is much to be said about it, or the lack thereof. Maybe you should try surviving on the glatt meals they served for a month. And the matza and cupnof grape juice once a week.

One incident i will share. We were at religious services, which are mandated once a week (unless of course the facility is on lockdown). We found a casenof macaroons that were left over from pesach, 10 weeks earlier. I cannot tell you the joy amongst the jewish inmates. 1. They were a welcome change from the regular crap and 2. They were a great bargaining tool for other food from the commissary that was no longer available for purchase.

Just let that sink in a minute...pesach food that goes in the garbage the minute pesach is over in your house, is welcomed monrhs later.
but than again what can you expect from the guy on the other side of the bars
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 06, 2017, 02:57:36 PM
Letís not turn this thread into DoC vs inmates. Inmates have no chance.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Qwertyuiop on December 06, 2017, 03:04:07 PM
Thank you Hvaces42 for opening up and sharing!

The United States has one HUGE justice system problem. All the way from the top to all the way at the bottom and everything in between.

And most people don't care enough, to care or notice.

And someone mentioned the Arthur Anderson case earlier in this thread. That's a very good point... of what's on of the many things that's completely wrong with the justice department, the media that plays into it and the gulliblels!
At least in that case (after tens of thousands of people lost their jobs and executives who had done nothing wrong went to jail, and lives destroyed plus much more) Arthur Anderson and the wrongfully accused executives were eventually fully acquitted! ...and the Rogue prosecutors... yeah, they went onto promotions. But yes, there was at least something right in that case, they lucked out and got a decent judge in appeal, who fully acquitted them.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on December 06, 2017, 03:05:30 PM
but than again what can you expect from the guy on the other side of the bars
In case you don't realize, that's you too.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 06, 2017, 03:08:36 PM
correct . but im not there saying that all is fine and dandy or denying the obvious issues
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 03:10:33 PM
Letís not turn this thread into DoC vs inmates. Inmates have no chance.
He's gotta get it out of his system too. Let him. It must be tough to walk around with all that guilt and shame with nowhere to share.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 06, 2017, 03:11:44 PM
Letís not turn this thread into DoC vs inmates. Inmates have no chance.
Great, so it will be just like the prisons.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 06, 2017, 03:12:03 PM
during your stay did you bump into any nicer/human DoC officers?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 06, 2017, 03:13:17 PM
It must be tough to walk around with all that guilt and shame with nowhere to share.
Totally unfair.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on December 06, 2017, 03:13:32 PM
This is the prison thread, it is not my personal redemption thread and definitely not about me having my moment. I'm way more fascinated by what DoC employees have to tell themselves so they can sleep at night.
We think it's better to be on the inside trying to effect change and help people who deserve to be helped than to be on the outside in another profession unable to realistically help anyone. When I meet somebody at work, I realize this is probably the worst day of their lives. I try to make it a little less horrible. That's bad? Would you rather all DoC employees be uncaring, unfeeling sociopaths?

Yes police have quotas, the prosecutors overcharge, the Court dockets are over full. At the end of the day, DoC is charged with the unenviable job of dealing with the inmates.
I appreciate that bit of validation. It's not a fun job by any stretch and it comes with near zero appreciation from the outside world.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on December 06, 2017, 03:17:20 PM
He's gotta get it out of his system too. Let him. It must be tough to walk around with all that guilt and shame with nowhere to share.
Nowhere to share? I think this thread proves the point that the public has an insatiable appetite for all things Rikers. It's a sick voyeurism IMHO. There is no shortage of programs people could volunteer for that would make a tangible impact in inmates' lives. Whenever I bring it up in shul, I hear crickets. People just want to hear the war stories.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 06, 2017, 03:19:03 PM
We think it's better to be on the inside trying to effect change and help people who deserve to be helped than to be on the outside in another profession unable to realistically help anyone. When I meet somebody at work, I realize this is probably the worst day of their lives. I try not make it a little less horrible. That's bad? Would you rather all DoC employees be uncaring, unfeeling sociopaths?
I appreciate that bit of validation. It's not a fun job by any stretch and it comes with near zero appreciation from the outside world.
you're to be applauded for that.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 06, 2017, 03:19:51 PM


It's a sick voyeurism IMHO.

People tend to take an interest in things that are taboo, or unspoken. Maybe if there was more accurate information available, people would be less interested. I've read/watched a lot on these types of topics, and maybe that's why the prison aspect of it isn't the most interesting part to me.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 03:33:51 PM
We think it's better to be on the inside trying to effect change and help people who deserve to be helped than to be on the outside in another profession unable to realistically help anyone. When I meet somebody at work, I realize this is probably the worst day of their lives. I try not make it a little less horrible. That's bad? Would you rather all DoC employees be uncaring, unfeeling sociopaths?
Maybe you're truly idealistic and think you are doing something for the greater good. I dont recall meeting anyone that tried, even a drop, to help me. Then again maybe i was deemed to not "deserve to be helped". And forgive me for not believing you when you say that you recognize that this is probably the worst day of their lives.I surmise you are in the medical unit. Didnt get much of a feeling that anyone who worked in that unit was there for more than a paycheck.

Im not exaggerating when I say 99.99% of DoC employees I encountered were sociopaths and on a power trip. There were one or two COs that were sympathetic but they couldnt do much to make my life any easier.

Finally, if you want the ultimate in voyerism, its those organizations that purport to help jewish inmates and do nothing but photo ops. I have yet to see what they have accomplished other than self-aggrandizement.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 06, 2017, 03:37:53 PM
during your stay did you bump into any nicer/human DoC officers?
any?!?!?!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 03:39:52 PM
Rikers has a certain mystique to it. Most wouldnt even know where it is or how you get there.

If a place can give me PTSD where i couldnt perfom simple calculations in my head when I was capable of doing complex ones previously, there is something wrong.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on December 06, 2017, 03:42:35 PM
Then again maybe i was deemed to not "deserve to be helped"
All I meant by that was I am not going to help an inmate who is trying to jam me up and get me arrested or fired. Basically, gang members who blackmail civilian and uniformed staff into bringing in contraband with the threat that something may happen to the employee or their family if they don't get what they want. As long as that's not you, you're good.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dawie on December 06, 2017, 03:42:39 PM
any?!?!?!
this guy?
There is a person, who single handedly does for inmates what all these supposed prisoner advocacy organizations combined dont do. I had met him on the way to court and gave him my tallis and tefillin. He arranged for the chaplain to get it to me the next day.

More on him later.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 03:47:25 PM
any?!?!?!
4, a Russian CO who must have gone to one of the Russian yeshivas as a kid, a CO that worked for one of the Jewish owned private ambulance companies as a second job and who was an EMT like me, a female CO who was from the midwest and had from what I understand didnt last too long and a guy nicknamed turtle (Turwitzki or something like that) who worked the mess and was working the front of the Island when I went back to retrieve my personal belongings. Thats as far as COs go. And the one frum psychologist who allowed me to sit in his office to get some Air conditioning on the day I had after I had panic attack due to the heat and lack of a/c in the rest of the facility accept the medical unit.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 06, 2017, 03:52:02 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

On the other hand
http://www.bbcprisonstudy.org/

With possible explanations here
http://www.bbcprisonstudy.org/faq.php?p=84
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 03:54:42 PM
this guy?
He's a private citizen who doesnt work for DoC. He only has connections with the chaplains there. And if you ask me if the chaplain was one of the people, for the most part, yes. He did the best he couldnunder the circumstances. He also wants to keep his job. So he couldnt do more than he did for me. Except to insist that I sit and watch Frisco Kid...i know what he was trying to do...but still.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dawie on December 06, 2017, 04:05:02 PM
He's a private citizen who doesnt work for DoC. He only has connections with the chaplains there. And if you ask me if the chaplain was one of the people, for the most part, yes. He did the best he couldnunder the circumstances. He also wants to keep his job. So he couldnt do more than he did for me. Except to insist that I sit and watch Frisco Kid...i know what he was trying to do...but still.
is he connected to any of the aformentioned
Finally, if you want the ultimate in voyerism, its those organizations that purport to help jewish inmates and do nothing but photo ops.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 04:06:49 PM
All I meant by that was I am not going to help an inmate who is trying to jam me up and get me arrested or fired. Basically, gang members who blackmail civilian and uniformed staff into bringing in contraband with the threat that something may happen to the employee or their family if they don't get what they want. As long as that's not you, you're good.
And your responses here tell me exactly what I have been saying all along. You dont or wont treat anyone better because THEY are all the same. Whether they are or aren't is immaterial. I was no gang member wasnt looking to jam anyone up yet I was treated as if I was. Thank You for making my points for me.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 04:07:25 PM
is he connected to any of the aformentioned
They say yes and i know its just for optics, for them.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: shwarmabob on December 06, 2017, 04:16:58 PM
I would hope that everyone would answer that in the negativebor at least endeavors to answer is in that fashion. My bracha is you should never be tested.
I will insert the relevant Geschichte here:
R. Chaim Halberstam of Sanz, known as the Divrei Chaim, once stood at his window and called to a passerby.

"What would you do," he asked, "if you found a purse with a large sum of money, and the name of its owner was in it?"

"What kind of question is that?" the man responded. "I would immediately return it."

"You speak foolishly," the Tzaddik said.

He then called in another man and repeated the question, to which this man replied, "A large sum of money? Why, I would keep it."

"You are a scoundrel," the Tzaddik said.

The next person to whom the question was put said, "Rabbi, how can I tell you now what I would do under those circumstances? I might say one thing now and act otherwise under temptation. Right now I can only hope that if I am put to the test, G-d will help me overcome temptation."

"Indeed you are truly wise and your words are spoken with intelligence and knowledge!" said the Tzaddik.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: cozmohoot on December 06, 2017, 07:13:18 PM
And your responses here tell me exactly what I have been saying all along. You dont or wont treat anyone better because THEY are all the same. Whether they are or aren't is immaterial. I was no gang member wasnt looking to jam anyone up yet I was treated as if I was. Thank You for making my points for me.
From the post you quoted it looked like he would treat you properly....
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: helpyouamdme on December 06, 2017, 09:37:35 PM
Would  anyone think a thread with this title will get so much replies, we should be yotzeh with this and never found our self's there
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 06, 2017, 10:42:38 PM
He's gotta get it out of his system too. Let him. It must be tough to walk around with all that guilt and shame with nowhere to share.
I have met good people that work for the DoC. That doesn't mean that they're bad people, or that they do bad things. However, that also doesn't mean that the DoC or everyone works for them is good, or it's treatment is justified. Many things that need correction are systemized and are a part of protocol, and will take much work to overhaul and improve.

We think it's better to be on the inside trying to effect change and help people who deserve to be helped than to be on the outside in another profession unable to realistically help anyone. When I meet somebody at work, I realize this is probably the worst day of their lives. I try to make it a little less horrible. That's bad? Would you rather all DoC employees be uncaring, unfeeling sociopaths?
I appreciate that bit of validation. It's not a fun job by any stretch and it comes with near zero appreciation from the outside world.

Kudos to you. Having someone on the inside that looks at the inmates like humans and tries shield them from mistreatment makes a world of a difference. It is a job that had near zero appreciation from the outside world, and isn't a good looking poster job to put on resume that attracts the idealistic. May you always be zoche to be the protector of the vulnerable and abused, and not ch'v the other way around.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 06, 2017, 10:55:37 PM



Finally, if you want the ultimate in voyerism, its those organizations that purport to help jewish inmates and do nothing but photo ops. I have yet to see what they have accomplished other than self-aggrandizement.

I don't know if I would say that...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 06, 2017, 11:03:22 PM

I don't know if I would say that...
With this I would probably say YMMV... ;-)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 11:04:10 PM

I don't know if I would say that...
I mean several of the local ones. Not the national one.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: blerbz on December 06, 2017, 11:05:36 PM
Is there something for a friend or family member to do when they see someone suffering from an addiction and that person isn't willing to admit it? Or the only way is when they hit rock bottom?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 06, 2017, 11:06:19 PM
I mean several of the local ones. Not the national one.
You didn't come in contact with anyone local while you were inside that you thought actually came to try make a difference or improve anyone's lives (either physically or emotionally)?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 11:07:37 PM
Is there something for a friend or family member to do when they see someone suffering from an addiction and that person isn't willing to admit it? Or the only way is when they hit rock bottom?
There are support groups for those people whether its Al-Anon, Gam-Anon and others. Sometimes unfortunately they need to hit rock bottom.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 11:09:13 PM
You didn't come in contact with anyone local while you were inside that you thought actually came to try make a difference or improve anyone's lives (either physically or emotionally)?
You're confusing the issues.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 06, 2017, 11:12:52 PM
Purporting to help inmates is honestly not a great self aggrandizing method, in my opinion. There are other causes that are much more glamorous.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 11:14:23 PM
Purporting to help inmates is honestly not a great self aggrandizing method, in my opinion. There are other causes that are much more glamorous.
Every shvitzer needs his plaque and business card of government official. It doesnt have to be glamorous.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 06, 2017, 11:26:38 PM
There are support groups for those people whether its Al-Anon, Gam-Anon and others. Sometimes unfortunately they need to hit rock bottom.
Yes, family need support and guidance. But ultimately have to understand that there is little to do..
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 11:33:06 PM
Yes, family need support and guidance. But ultimately have to understand that there is little to do..
Said as well as can be said. No one can control an addict.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 06, 2017, 11:37:12 PM
I think we are due for the next part
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 11:40:27 PM
I think we are due for the next part
I dont like the taste of oink...i need to regroup and get the taste out of my mouth. Maybe tomorrow.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 06, 2017, 11:42:19 PM
I dont like the taste of oink...i need to regroup and get the taste out of my mouth. Maybe tomorrow.
I donít fully understand what t&c says that really gets under your skin. Maybe just because he works there
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2017, 11:49:35 PM
I donít fully understand what t&c says that really gets under your skin. Maybe just because he works there
You have to speak oink. I cant sympathize with someone whose job is in any way connected to that. I used to have many "friends" in the NYPD. N.W.A. is now my favorite artist. I have a visceral hatred for anyone associated with law enforcement and "criminal justice". Its not just a job. And as my early conversations here proved, only my book and case number proved I was an inmate. I was just a number...dehumanizing. It's the culture.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on December 07, 2017, 12:05:28 AM
You have to speak oink. I cant sympathize with someone whose job is in any way connected to that. I used to have many "friends" in the NYPD. N.W.A. is now my favorite artist. I have a visceral hatred for anyone associated with law enforcement and "criminal justice". Its not just a job. And as my early conversations here proved, only my book and case number proved I was an inmate. I was just a number...dehumanizing. It's the culture.
I feel bad even responding because it's inhibiting people from hearing the next part. But I have to point out the irony that your calling anyone remotely related to law enforcement 'oink' is precisely the same dehumanization you are accusing others of.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 07, 2017, 12:11:35 AM


I don't mean to be a jerk, but shut up and go away
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 07, 2017, 12:13:35 AM
I don't mean to be a jerk, but shut up and go away
Someone had to say it
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 12:25:43 AM
Aggressor plays the victim. Classic.

I'm sorry i hurt your feelings by saying oink. I'm still recovering from the trauma of being treated like a murderer, rapist, burglar, drug dealer, kid toucher, each of whom i shared a dorm with, because of DoCs inability or lack of desire to differentiate between white collar and common criminal.

I hope oink doesn't have any long term affect on you. You can always go to work and take it out on someone else who wont call you oink. Dont give me this fake empathy.

Dehumanized by the oink. Millennial wus. Grow up.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Aerial Dag on December 07, 2017, 12:35:58 AM
This has been pretty informative. A close relative of mine was locked up several times at Rikers while I was younger but it's not something I really speak to him about. It's interesting to get a perspective about what goes on there. Maybe I'll broach the subject with him.
Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 07, 2017, 12:41:52 AM


You have to speak oink. I cant sympathize with someone whose job is in any way connected to that. I used to have many "friends" in the NYPD. N.W.A. is now my favorite artist. I have a visceral hatred for anyone associated with law enforcement and "criminal justice". Its not just a job. And as my early conversations here proved, only my book and case number proved I was an inmate. I was just a number...dehumanizing. It's the culture.

Just because the DOJ is messed up doesn't mean NWA isn't messed up. They both built perverse cultures with wrong ideals and perceived normals. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Proisrael on December 07, 2017, 04:26:33 AM
Aggressor plays the victim. Classic.

I'm sorry i hurt your feelings by saying oink. I'm still recovering from the trauma of being treated like a murderer, rapist, burglar, drug dealer, kid toucher, each of whom i shared a dorm with, because of DoCs inability or lack of desire to differentiate between white collar and common criminal..

You went to Rikers where I imagine most people are exactly that. I do not think I can blame the CO's for being uncaring/tough and nasty. You were the exception to the rule. Dont get me wrong I sympathize with your situation, however I was/am on the other side of story and the guy who did it to me is married happily/has a good job and has not paid me back one cent. I would have loved for him to go to prison/court, maybe not to Rikers but prison for sure. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 06:28:12 AM
You went to Rikers where I imagine most people are exactly that. I do not think I can blame the CO's for being uncaring/tough and nasty. You were the exception to the rule. Dont get me wrong I sympathize with your situation, however I was/am on the other side of story and the guy who did it to me is married happily/has a good job and has not paid me back one cent. I would have loved for him to go to prison/court, maybe not to Rikers but prison for sure.
לא תיקום mean anything to you? What does his happy marriage or job have anything to do with it? Jealous? Sue him and collect. Why jail?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Proisrael on December 07, 2017, 06:34:18 AM
לא תיקום mean anything to you? What does his happy marriage or job have anything to do with it? Jealous? Sue him and collect. Why jail?

He refuses to pay up. I cannot sue him.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 06:51:18 AM
He refuses to pay up. I cannot sue him.
So What will jail fo for you? Only revenge. When he's done his debt would be paid and you still wont have your money. Sick way to get satisfaction, by seeing someone else suffer.

And what about another דאורייתא of לא תעשוק את רעך
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 07, 2017, 06:58:53 AM
I do not think I can blame the CO's for being uncaring/tough and nasty. You were the exception to the rule.
No he wasn't, white collar crimes was.  One of the first points of the thread was why they cant differentiate
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Ergel on December 07, 2017, 07:03:41 AM
He refuses to pay up. I cannot sue him.

Sounds shady
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 07:15:58 AM
Leta just be clear, to house white collar criminals with others where their life is in danger is one of the inexcusable failures of the criminal justice system. At rikers its further exacerbated by the conditions. The COs are part of that problem as well.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 07:34:31 AM
At some point during the night they served dinner, once again, same sandwiches as in the holding cell. I think there may have been either an orange or a banana available as well, so thats what I ate. Drinks were served...in rubber gloves. The guy had a large cooler filled with some unknown liquid, probably punch and was handing out rubber gloves to us filled with liquid. Thats what we had to drink along with water from the bathroom sink.

At about 4am I was taken along with 3 others to the medical clinic. I was interviewed by a nurse about any medical conditions. I was able to finally get a drink of water from a water cooler in a plastic cup. I saved that cup, the size you get in the dentists office, for a week. They took bloods and gave me an on the spot HIV test. They asked if I wanted the results and handed them to me in an envelope. I was instructed not to open the envelope until after I left because there had been cases where inmates found out they were HIV positive and attacked the nurses.

After that we were sheparded back to a cell where they distributed a thin economy class style blanket rolled into a sheet a soap, toothpaste and a toothbrush and a plastic 20oz(?) cup with a handle. Mine had been used before. You had to know someone to get a new cup. I was also unaware that you had to ask for a heavy blanket at that time. That came into play later.

We were escorted to the dorm at around 6am and I found a bed near the windows halfway into the room.

The dorms were large rooms, 60' x 200'. with 3 rows of beds separated in a 1-1-1 configuration  ;D ;D ;D a few feet apart from each other. There were wider separations from the foot of one bed to the head of another so that there were two aisles. There was one CO stationed at a desk when you came into the room and more COs located behind glass in a "bubble". The bubble was positioned in such a fashion that 4 COs could monitor 4 dorms. It was a diamond shaped room with the dorms laid out in a windmill fashion so that the building from the air looks like a fidget spinner.       
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 07, 2017, 07:42:59 AM
Leta just be clear, to house anyone with others where their life is in danger is one of the inexcusable failures of the criminal justice system. At rikers its further exacerbated by the conditions. The COs are part of that problem as well.
FTFY
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 07, 2017, 07:48:05 AM


You went to Rikers where I imagine most people are exactly that. I do not think I can blame the CO's for being uncaring/tough and nasty.

-1

Visit Rikers. You'll get a different perspective. Many of the COs aren't just "insensitive", they're downright criminal.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 07:54:41 AM

-1

Visit Rikers. You'll get a different perspective. Many of the COs aren't just "insensitive", they're downright criminal.
One of our CO's did not allow us to go to meal until the floor was washed the floor had been washed five minutes before she walked in and she refused to allow us to go unless we did it again. What rehabilitative purpose did that serve? And that's just an easy story.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 07, 2017, 08:53:59 AM
Letís get one thing straight. White collar crime is not victimless. Yes they deserve to be punished and incarcerated.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 08:57:36 AM
Letís get one thing straight. White collar crime is not victimless. Yes they deserve to be punished and incarcerated.
Absolutely. Even if you're an "Eye for and Eye" kinda guy, the punishment far exceeds the crime. Stealing money, without violence or the threat of violence attached to it does not deserve a potential death sentence. Look at a person the wrong way in prison and you get shanked. Where is the balance? Or you're saying that its assumption of the risk when you commit the crime and too bad?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 07, 2017, 09:00:50 AM
3 rows of beds separated in a 1-1-1 configuration  ;D ;D ;D a few feet apart from each other.
Sounds like 767 Polaris if you had gotten the thicker blanket  ;)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 07, 2017, 09:02:37 AM
What am saying is I agree with you our prisons are messed up but that is a totally different issue.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 09:05:30 AM
What am saying is I agree with you our prisons are messed up but that is a totally different issue.
Um, this is the prison thread. That is the only issue here.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 07, 2017, 09:22:42 AM
I would have loved for him to go to prison
how dare you make such a coldhearted comment in this thread.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 07, 2017, 09:24:33 AM
how dare you make such a coldhearted comment in this thread.
+1.
Love to get your money back, but why that?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 09:29:13 AM
+1.
Love to get your money back, but why that?
I think people are desperate sometimes and do things out of emotion. As I've said before, if i was in the position of the guy whose money I stole, I do not know if I would have acted any differently out of emotion. I've been the victim of a scam artist. Guy cashed GCs for me in his business and then when I gave him the second bigger batch he stiffed me. Will I report him, no. Its only money. I can always make more of it. Do I forgive him for making my life difficult, no. But I'm not the judge here, He is.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Ygold on December 07, 2017, 09:50:31 AM
 Shocking? No.
http://thefederalist.com/2017/12/07/bombshell-report-political-persecution-scott-walker-swept-high-level-gop-officials/ (ftp://thefederalist.com/2017/12/07/bombshell-report-political-persecution-scott-walker-swept-high-level-gop-officials/)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Boruch999 on December 07, 2017, 09:50:48 AM
Absolutely. Even if you're an "Eye for and Eye" kinda guy, the punishment far exceeds the crime. Stealing money, without violence or the threat of violence attached to it does not deserve a potential death sentence. Look at a person the wrong way in prison and you get shanked. Where is the balance? Or you're saying that its assumption of the risk when you commit the crime and too bad?

Where do the shanks come from?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 09:53:41 AM
Where do the shanks come from?
Really not that difficult to improvise.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 07, 2017, 10:20:14 AM
Where do the shanks come from?
Toothbrushes?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 10:21:59 AM
Toothbrushes?
+
Broken cups, storage bins, pencils,
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: shlonx on December 07, 2017, 12:13:27 PM
Toothbrushes?

Why don't they make toothbrushes with rubber/silicon handles?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 07, 2017, 12:16:47 PM
Why don't they make toothbrushes with rubber/silicon handles?

Guards don't get shived as often.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 12:23:07 PM
Guards don't get shived as often.
I never witnessed a guard get so much as shoved. But they do get attacked. I was in a relatively safe dorm. Worst i saw was a guy get his nose broken 3 feet from my bed.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 07, 2017, 12:29:48 PM
I never witnessed a guard get so much as shoved. But they do get attacked. I was in a relatively safe dorm. Worst i saw was a guy get his nose broken 3 feet from my bed.

Oof. 

What does it take to get put in protective custody?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 12:36:19 PM
Oof. 

What does it take to get put in protective custody?
Breaking someones nose. Protective custody = solitary confinement. If there ever was a hell to be avoided its the "box" at Rikers. Basically in a broiler in the summer and a walk in freezer in the winter.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 07, 2017, 02:03:06 PM
@mods should this be moved to Destination Guides?

@jj1000 Today the Baal Hatanya was freed from prison. Did you know that?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 02:04:45 PM
@mods should this be moved to Destination Guides?

@jj1000 Today the Baal Hatanya was freed from prison. Did you know that?
Repost and repost
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Deal Guy on December 07, 2017, 03:14:08 PM
@mods should this be moved to Destination Guides?

@jj1000 Today the Baal Hatanya was freed from prison. Did you know that?
hvaces42 is missing out on a lot of post counts by staying in Just Shmooze.

Who is going to start the wiki to put together all the actual posts that are continuous in this thread?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 03:15:59 PM
hvaces42 is missing out on a lot of post counts by staying in Just Shmooze.

Who is going to start the wiki to put together all the actual posts that are continuous in this thread?
Well aware an been discussed in PMs. I requested it stay here.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 07, 2017, 03:20:14 PM
Who is going to start the wiki to put together all the actual posts that are continuous in this thread?
Might be nice to ask @hvaces42 before doing so, just as a courtesy.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: 3yummyboys on December 07, 2017, 03:20:14 PM
Leta just be clear, to house white collar criminals with others where their life is in danger is one of the inexcusable failures of the criminal justice system. At rikers its further exacerbated by the conditions. The COs are part of that problem as well.

I agree. However the dehumanizing and abusive treatment that you describe should not be acceptable no matter what the crime.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 03:22:16 PM
Might be nice to ask @hvaces42 before doing so, just as a courtesy.
Lets start off the wiki with a link to all oink posts  ;D
Oh and what is courtesy when you can be obstinate and combative.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 07, 2017, 03:41:24 PM
Lets start off the wiki with a link to all oink posts  ;D
Oh and what is courtesy when you can be obstinate and combative.
True. Screw you let's do this wiki!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 07, 2017, 03:42:19 PM
How about what penalty fits the crime?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 03:49:26 PM
True. Screw you let's do this wiki!
OINK!!!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 07, 2017, 03:51:42 PM
Can we leave the oinks out of it
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 03:52:27 PM
Wiki added
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 07, 2017, 03:58:07 PM
Wiki added

lol
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 07, 2017, 04:12:35 PM
Lets start off the wiki with a link to all oink posts  ;D
Oh and what is courtesy when you can be obstinate and combative.
pleased define oink ???
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 07, 2017, 04:13:11 PM
pleased define oink ???

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pig
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 07, 2017, 04:13:36 PM
pleased define oink ???
What animal makes that sound?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 07, 2017, 04:13:52 PM
lol
ALOL
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 07, 2017, 04:14:36 PM
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pig
thanks.   google didnt help me with it
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 07, 2017, 04:17:18 PM
I wonder if the CO's chuckle when they hear that term.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 04:20:33 PM
I wonder if the CO's chuckle when they hear that term.
PM for answer...and go
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?action=profile;u=3858
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 07, 2017, 04:21:20 PM


I wonder if the CO's snort when they hear that term.

FTFY
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Deal Guy on December 07, 2017, 04:31:22 PM
What animal makes that sound?
Why are CO called oink or pig?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 07, 2017, 04:39:54 PM
Why are CO called oink or pig?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_police-related_slang_terms
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Deal Guy on December 07, 2017, 04:54:04 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_police-related_slang_terms
The amount of names.. :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 07:48:09 PM
24 hours after I left my house I finally had my Rikers bed. Now the beds are entirely metal, including the place you would normally have springs. With a metal frame header and footer. In the great words of @Something Fishy I'm 5'14" amd the beds are 6 ft, max. So either i sleep curled up or my feet are resting on the foot bar. The mattress is vinyl filled with something, probably straw from Methuselah times. Pillows are a suicide/ homicide hazard so no pillows. Some helpful guys got me a vinyl bin for my belongings. This was used to store my clothing commissary purchases.

I was housed in OBCC which consists of 8 dorms if I'm not mistaken. I was in 1 Upper. This is a transit dorm where new arrivals get transferred out to other dorms within a week.

My dorm mates ran the gamut of criminals. There was the drug dealer facing 6 to life for his third high level drug deal. There was a crew of Dominicans who were also in on drug charges. A Gypsy roofer nicknamed "Weasel" who moonlit as a cat burglar. A Palestinian who was extradited from Virginia for major cigarette smuggling. "Pops" a 70+ year old with coca cola glasses who was a child molester. Basically if you read about a criminal being arrested in NYC in the NY Post or NY Daily News they were there.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: pixi on December 07, 2017, 08:05:23 PM
24 hours after I left my house I finally had my Rikers bed. Now the beds are entirely metal, including the place you would normally have springs. With a metal frame header and footer. In the great words of @Something Fishy I'm 5'14" amd the beds are 6 ft, max. So either i sleep curled up or my feet are resting on the foot bar. The mattress is vinyl filled with something, probably straw from Methuselah times. Pillows are a suicide/ homicide hazard so no pillows. Some helpful guys got me a vinyl bin for my belongings. This was used to store my clothing commissary purchases.

I was housed in OBCC which consists of 8 dorms if I'm not mistaken. I was in 1 Upper. This is a transit dorm where new arrivals get transferred out to other dorms within a week.

My dorm mates ran the gamut of criminals. There was the drug dealer facing 6 to life for his third high level drug deal. There was a crew of Dominicans who were also in on drug charges. A Gypsy roofer nicknamed "Weasel" who moonlit as a cat burglar. A Palestinian who was extradited from Virginia for major cigarette smuggling. "Pops" a 70+ year old with coca cola glasses who was a child molester. Basically if you read about a criminal being arrested in NYC in the NY Post or NY Daily News they were there.
Is it even possible to sleep at night under such conditions?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 08:23:05 PM
Is it even possible to sleep at night under such conditions?
Fitfully. One eye open type sleep for the first day. Lights out were at 11pm and breakfast was at 5am.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: pixi on December 07, 2017, 08:24:40 PM
Fitfully. One eye open type sleep for the first day. Lights out were at 11pm and breakfast was at 5am.
Wow. Is there a specific reason why they give breakfast so early? (why not..)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 08:41:19 PM
Wow. Is there a specific reason why they give breakfast so early? (why not..)
Start the day early and end early. Dinner is the blue plate special at 5pm.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 07, 2017, 08:43:14 PM
Still,  11 to 5 is 6 hours.  Y dont they let you get some sleep?  At least in prison you should be able to sleep
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: pixi on December 07, 2017, 08:47:26 PM
Still,  11 to 5 is 6 hours.  Y dont they let you get some sleep?  At least in prison you should be able to sleep
5 am is breakfast, that means you have to wake up 4-4:30.  Ridiculous!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 08:54:11 PM
5 am is breakfast, that means you have to wake up 4-4:30.  Ridiculous!
Tallis and tefillin before anyone woke. Me and the Muslims were davening at the same time. That created a bond. 2 of my best friends there, Omar and Sheikh, were Muslim.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 07, 2017, 08:57:06 PM
Tallis and tefillin before anyone woke. Me and the Muslims were davening at the same time. That created a bond. 2 of my best friends there, Omar and Sheikh, were Muslim.
What where they in for?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: shlonx on December 07, 2017, 08:59:08 PM
Do you still keep up with them -- or anyone else from those days?

(presuming that they are out already)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 09:07:21 PM
Omar got a raw deal. 7 years for allegedly stealing and iPhone. He was in front of a judge who offered him 4 years then 5 years  then his attorney missed a court date it went to 8 years. He settled on 7. He gets out next year. His alleged victim, buy her own admission, never saw the guys face...yet picked him out of a lineup.

Sheikh was 65 years old with diabetes. It was a distributor in the drug trade he had been in and out of the system many times. He knew the system and played it. He got 2 years and is probably right back out there. He owns more property than you can imagine in good neighborhoods in Brooklyn.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: beeweegee on December 07, 2017, 09:28:01 PM
Omar got a raw deal. 7 years for allegedly stealing and iPhone. He was in front of a judge who offered him 4 years then 5 years  then his attorney missed a court date it went to 8 years. He settled on 7. He gets out next year. His alleged victim, buy her own admission, never saw the guys face...yet picked him out of a lineup.

Sheikh was 65 years old with diabetes. It was a distributor in the drug trade he had been in and out of the system many times. He knew the system and played it. He got 2 years and is probably right back out there. He owns more property than you can imagine in good neighborhoods in Brooklyn.
Pardon my ignorance of the legal system, but 7 years for stealing a phone???
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: elit on December 07, 2017, 09:28:06 PM
Omar got a raw deal. 7 years for allegedly stealing and iPhone. He was in front of a judge who offered him 4 years then 5 years  then his attorney missed a court date it went to 8 years. He settled on 7. He gets out next year. His alleged victim, buy her own admission, never saw the guys face...yet picked him out of a lineup.

Sheikh was 65 years old with diabetes. It was a distributor in the drug trade he had been in and out of the system many times. He knew the system and played it. He got 2 years and is probably right back out there. He owns more property than you can imagine in good neighborhoods in Brooklyn.
7 years for stealing an iPhone how is that even possible?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Sammy82 on December 07, 2017, 09:43:05 PM
7 years for stealing an iPhone how is that even possible?
+1
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 10:00:59 PM
Robbery in the Second Degree carries a sentence of up to 15 years. His lawyer was incompetent. He took a "deal" because it would have been worse if he went to trial. I tried my best to help him when we were inside. He ran the secomd dorm I was in. He was the peacemaker. A consummate mentch. He controlled the phones. I gave him my shabbos phone time and he reserved a slot for me. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 07, 2017, 10:07:33 PM
Robbery in the Second Degree carries a sentence of up to 15 years. His lawyer was incompetent. He took a "deal" because it would have been worse if he went to trial. I tried my best to help him when we were inside. He ran the secomd dorm I was in. He was the peacemaker. A consummate mentch. He controlled the phones. I gave him my shabbos phone time and he reserved a slot for me.
But 7 years? What's the rest of the story? Was he a career criminal?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: pixi on December 07, 2017, 10:12:05 PM
Omar got a raw deal. 7 years for allegedly stealing and iPhone.

Something doesn't make sense.

Pardon my ignorance of the legal system, but 7 years for stealing a phone???



7 years for stealing an iPhone how is that even possible?



But 7 years? What's the rest of the story? Was he a career criminal?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 10:21:48 PM
But 7 years? What's the rest of the story? Was he a career criminal?
He was a trainer at a national gym chain. No priors that affected this.

The story is the Judge was an a**hole amd his lawyer didnt help. I read the transcripts of his court dates. Ineffective assistance of counsel clear as day. His lawyer didnt show up one time and the offer kept going up whether he had counsel or not.

A miscarriage of justice if i ever saw one. Helped him draft his ineffective assistance pf counsel motions. He was advised to withdraw it because if he ended up in front of the same judge, which was what would have happened, he would have been resentenced to the 15 years. Judge was on an ego trip. I will see if i still have copies of the transcripts and will post with redacted info.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 07, 2017, 10:24:41 PM
He was a trainer at a national gym chain. No priors that affected this.
What priors? Is this like OJ? Can't get him on one charge so railroad him on another charged.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 10:28:23 PM
Something doesn't make sense.
Makes perfect sense. When i was in law school i doubted my criminal law professors. They were, in my mind, bleeding heart liberals who thought everyone was innocent.

One professor on the first day class had somebody run in and then run out of the classroom. We were then asked to identify the person. We failed miserably. He was trying to prove a point about identifications of perps. And it was spot on.

Yet I still didnt believe him or them. Now I believe everything. Its a punchline that everyone inside is innocent. But there are people who are, and people who were overcharged or denied parole or picked upnfor stupid parole violations and have to do serious time because they messed up on minor issues lile not living where their Parole officer told them to live.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 10:33:07 PM
What priors? Is this like OJ? Can't get him on one charge so railroad him on another charged.
In NY if you have had felonies on your record within the last 10 years or any other crimes are called priors. There is an enhanced sentencing schedule if the two felonies occurred within 10 years of each other. It was one guy who was there who had a felony 9 years and 11 months and a couple of days prior to the one that he was accused of now. He had been clean in between those two ran a business but was forced to take a deal over a domestic violence issue because he was facing a higher sentence due to the two felonies being within 10 years of each other.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Yammer on December 07, 2017, 10:34:31 PM
This is insane....

Is this part of Bill Clintons change to the minimum sentencing?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 07, 2017, 10:37:09 PM
In NY if you have had felonies on your record within the last 10 years or any other crimes are called priors. There is an enhanced sentencing schedule if the two felonies occurred within 10 years of each other. It was one guy who was there who had a felony 9 years and 11 months and a couple of days prior to the one that he was accused of now. He had been clean in between those two ran a business but was forced to take a deal over a domestic violence issue because he was facing a higher sentence due to the two felonies being within 10 years of each other.
Now I understand.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 10:37:33 PM
I find it very interesting that the only thing that's been challenged here is my contention that the COs mistreat the inmates. No ADA has come here and said that what I'm saying is incorrect. No one that works there has denied that the conditions are as deplorable as mentioned.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 10:39:14 PM
This is insane....

Is this part of Bill Clintons change to the minimum sentencing?
Thia is state prison, not federal.

Prosecutors use leverage to pad their conviction rates. If youre ever i. NYC at night, especially on weekends you should check out Night court at NYC criminal court. My daughter goes for entertainment. The judges, prosecutors and defendants are the best casted people you could ask for in thia real life movie. The fanily members are great extras as well. So sad.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: shlonx on December 07, 2017, 10:45:08 PM
Do you still keep up with them -- or anyone else from those days?

(presuming that they are out already)

Bump.... unless you didn't feel obliged to answer...  8) 8)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Pinreb on December 07, 2017, 10:47:42 PM
Bump.... unless you didn't feel obliged to answer...  8) 8)

Omar got a raw deal. 7 years for allegedly stealing and iPhone. He was in front of a judge who offered him 4 years then 5 years  then his attorney missed a court date it went to 8 years. He settled on 7. He gets out next year. His alleged victim, buy her own admission, never saw the guys face...yet picked him out of a lineup.

Sheikh was 65 years old with diabetes. It was a distributor in the drug trade he had been in and out of the system many times. He knew the system and played it. He got 2 years and is probably right back out there. He owns more property than you can imagine in good neighborhoods in Brooklyn.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 07, 2017, 10:48:28 PM
I find it very interesting that the only thing that's been challenged here is my contention that the COs mistreat the inmates.
You lumped them all together.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 10:49:36 PM
Bump.... unless you didn't feel obliged to answer...  8) 8)
Sorry, forgot to answer. Sheikh had my number when he went upstate. Hes been out 3 years and no contact. Omars girlfriend emailed me to try and help him but we lost toich. He is still upstate. Gets out next year. Another guy, Artie who worked in the kitchen I wrote a letter on his behalf to the Parole Board, but he was denied parole then. He is out and lives in the catskills. No others.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 07, 2017, 10:50:27 PM
Thia is state prison, not federal.

Prosecutors use leverage to pad their conviction rates. If youre ever i. NYC at night, especially on weekends you should check out Night court at NYC criminal court. My daughter goes for entertainment. The judges, prosecutors and defendants are the best casted people you could ask for in thia real life movie. The fanily members are great extras as well. So sad.

Ive been there.  It's very sad.  They were araigning some dude they'd arrested because he was sleeping in his parked car with the motor on,  because it was cold. But he was drunk, so it's "drunk driving" .  He'd been in jail overnight.

Now they were reading the cops transript, "and then defendant stated, I'm so sorry, please don't tell my parents"

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 10:50:51 PM
You lumped them all together.
Whe. 99% are rotten you lose a few good ones. אוי לרשע ...

Look it up.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 07, 2017, 10:53:07 PM
Look it up.
Don't need to look it up. Rikers is then the exception and not the rule.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 11:07:37 PM
Don't need to look it up. Rikers is then the exception and not the rule.
Upstate not much better. Remind me to tell you story of pesach seder tomorrow.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 07, 2017, 11:21:15 PM
The thread is great your writing is great. The lesson is great. But pls we need to pick up the pace.   
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 11:25:07 PM
The thread is great your writing is great. The lesson is great. But pls we need to pick up the pace.
Needy tonight, are we...
Been toying with a cliffhanger ending and wait for the book release...but i dont have an agent or a book deal yet... ;D ;D

My therapist suggested i do a podcast  8)

In reality...

Once i get into day to day there are just ancedotals rather than blow by blow coverage.
Title: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 07, 2017, 11:27:28 PM
U realize this is going for 4 days now and we are only 24 hours in. At this rate it will take 136 days to get the full TR
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 07, 2017, 11:29:28 PM
I realize the smell of oink slowed things down but I think thatís gone now
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: elit on December 07, 2017, 11:30:02 PM
U realize this is going for 4 days now and we are only 24 hours in. At this rate it will take 136 days to get the full TR
really?? are you paying for this?  can i get you something to eat? newspaper? shoe shine?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 11:30:43 PM
U realize this is going for 4 days now and we are only 24 hours in. At this rate it will take 136 days
Ive been told im verbose. If i can get you for 136 days just covering 34 days, imagine what I can do with life after rikers, with Gamblers Anonymous war stories (which I hate) and other success stories of recovering addicts. Its time to get this out of the shadows and to confront it like adults.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 11:34:48 PM
really?? are you paying for this?  can i get you something to eat? newspaper? shoe shine?
Leave him alone. This is where i agree with the voyerism aspect. The mystique of Rikers is such that it commands rapt attention. Sorry but we wont be dont before shabbos.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Something Fishy on December 07, 2017, 11:35:16 PM
OK, next person to demand more posts gets sent to the hole.

Seriously, people. This is likely difficult to write from an emotional standpoint, let the man write at his own pace. He owes you nothing.

And besides, the current pace allows for a lovely amount of popcorn between parts. I'd hate to see that disappear :D.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 07, 2017, 11:37:13 PM
OK, next person to demand more posts gets sent to the hole.

Seriously, people. This is likely difficult to write from an emotional standpoint, let the man write at his own pace. He owes you nothing.

And besides, the current pace allows for a lovely amount of popcorn between parts. I'd hate to see that disappear :D.
PM for where to send the checks for increased traffic  :P

Thanks for the support.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Something Fishy on December 07, 2017, 11:38:53 PM
PM for where to send the checks for increased traffic  :P

;D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 07, 2017, 11:39:04 PM
OK, next person to demand more posts gets sent to the hole.

Seriously, people. This is likely difficult to write from an emotional standpoint, let the man write at his own pace. He owes you nothing.

And besides, the current pace allows for a lovely amount of popcorn between parts. I'd hate to see that disappear :D.
Is this the reasoning you use when writing TR's?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Something Fishy on December 07, 2017, 11:41:13 PM
Is this the reasoning you use when writing TR's?

Nah, my TRs can't hold up a candle kernel compared to the popcorn here.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Proisrael on December 08, 2017, 01:41:00 AM
+1.
Love to get your money back, but why that?

Why do we sell people into slavery when they steal and cannot pay back? Someone steals someone lifes savings and then refuses to pay up should be punished. Period. Whether they deserve Rikers or just to be put away for a couple of years is not my point. I would not want them tortured in Rikers but being put away is a deterrent for future misconduct. We are talking about someone who stole MILLIONS (not from me alone) and completely got away with it.
He took the money to AC/Vegas and blew it all. He should need to pay back and go to prison. Living a happy life now and refusing to pay back is wrong IMO.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ckmk47 on December 08, 2017, 04:30:16 AM
Why do we sell people into slavery when they steal and cannot pay back? Someone steals someone lifes savings and then refuses to pay up should be punished. Period. Whether they deserve Rikers or just to be put away for a couple of years is not my point. I would not want them tortured in Rikers but being put away is a deterrent for future misconduct. We are talking about someone who stole MILLIONS (not from me alone) and completely got away with it.
He took the money to AC/Vegas and blew it all. He should need to pay back and go to prison. Living a happy life now and refusing to pay back is wrong IMO.
I think if the perpetrator showed remorse, Proisrael would be less harsh.  But the guy is living an apparently happy life with no complications, so Proisrael is understandably angry.
I would suggest though, Proisrael, that you move forward as if you lost the money in a natural disaster.  Anger only holds you back from your own happiness. Your loss was an act of G-d even if it was disguised as an act of man. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ckmk47 on December 08, 2017, 04:32:41 AM
Been away from this thread for awhile and just caught up.  Wow!
Thanks @hvaces42 for sharing.  Lots to think about.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 04:34:00 AM
Your loss was an act of G-d even if it was disguised as an act of man.
Please don't go there.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Ergel on December 08, 2017, 05:14:54 AM
Why do we sell people into slavery when they steal and cannot pay back? Someone steals someone lifes savings and then refuses to pay up should be punished. Period. Whether they deserve Rikers or just to be put away for a couple of years is not my point. I would not want them tortured in Rikers but being put away is a deterrent for future misconduct. We are talking about someone who stole MILLIONS (not from me alone) and completely got away with it.
He took the money to AC/Vegas and blew it all. He should need to pay back and go to prison. Living a happy life now and refusing to pay back is wrong IMO.
The fact that you can't sue means something shady is going on. You keep ignoring this point.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 06:24:24 AM
The fact that you can't sue means something shady is going on. You keep ignoring this point.
Could be as simple as statute of limitations ran. Dont judge him like that. Have much to say about his scenario. Later.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Yikes2179 on December 08, 2017, 07:10:44 AM
Why do we sell people into slavery when they steal and cannot pay back? Someone steals someone lifes savings and then refuses to pay up should be punished. Period. Whether they deserve Rikers or just to be put away for a couple of years is not my point. I would not want them tortured in Rikers but being put away is a deterrent for future misconduct. We are talking about someone who stole MILLIONS (not from me alone) and completely got away with it.
He took the money to AC/Vegas and blew it all. He should need to pay back and go to prison. Living a happy life now and refusing to pay back is wrong IMO.
עבד עברי is not for punishment
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 08, 2017, 07:53:09 AM
Anger only holds you back from your own happiness. Your loss was an act of G-d even if it was disguised as an act of man.
+1

I know the feeling very well. I'm not sure if anger is what I ever felt towards the individual perpetrator, though I definitely held anger and disdain to some people who were well aware of the situation and were in a position to make sure I am made whole. My feelings definitely held me back, I knew it and struggled with it for years. The eventual outcome for those people was an interesting turn of events.

I definitely hold no anger towards the perpetrator now. I actually admire his talent for getting away with obvious lies. I also wish upon him no harm whatsoever. I probably have more rachmonus on him than any other feeling towards him.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 08:19:28 AM
 I doubt any of the people in the above scenarios are "living the high life". If they gambled away the money, then they're probably still gambling and the high life scenario is just a facade. Theyre stealing money elsewhere. Guaranteed.

Someone who has the money to repay and makes no effort to repay and shows no remorse is a sociopath.

2 things on anger that are well known but bear repeating:

1. Anger is allowing someone to live rent free in my head. Thats the most valuable space in my body why would I allow someone to live there rent free? I may carry it around and the person I'm angry with or at may not even know it.

2. Anger is like taking poison and hoping the other person dies. Get the poison out so I can live a better life.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ExGingi on December 08, 2017, 08:27:26 AM
I doubt any of the people in the above scenarios are "living the high life". If they gambled away the money, then they're probably still gambling and the high life scenario is just a facade. Theyre stealing money elsewhere. Guaranteed.

Someone who has the money to repay and makes no effort to repay and shows no remorse is a sociopath.

2 things on anger that are well known but bear repeating:

1. Anger is allowing someone to live rent free in my head. Thats the most valuable space in my body why would I allow someone to live there rent free? I may carry it around and the person I'm angry with or at may not even know it.

2. Anger is like taking poison and hoping the other person dies. Get the poison out so I can live a better life.
You, my dear friend, are at the very least an excellent and outstanding writer.

I couldn't agree more with every word you just wrote here.

That being said, I am sure you know it isn't easy to struggle with emotions that come from within. The יצר is pretty smart.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: mgarfin on December 08, 2017, 08:31:58 AM
The fact that you can't sue means something shady is going on. You keep ignoring this point.
Maybe it's was cash he doesn't want to government to know.
Still doesn't give guy right to ignore and live happily life.

But what seems like from here is ppl having a very hard time with no remorse guys.

I have an Amazon competitor that pays to get bad reviews on my products and buy's and brakes item's and returns it, and so on. And in his shul he's a respectable guy. It drives you crazy!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2017, 08:37:20 AM
All these posts about not getting angry are missing the point and quite insensitive.
The guy got screwed and wishes the person to be punished as a deterrent (or to simply stop this guy from continuing to screw others). .

You guys remind me of this:
https://youtu.be/IhmKxa_FMkU
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 08:43:17 AM
Maybe it's was cash he doesn't want to government to know.
Still doesn't give guy right to ignore and live happily life.

But what seems like from here is ppl having a very hard time with no remorse guys.

I have an Amazon competitor that pays to get bad reviews on my products and buy's and brakes item's and returns it, and so on. And in his shul he's a respectable guy. It drives you crazy!
There are many shady people out there, no doubt.

The line from The Godfather often rings true: "Behind every great fortune is a great crime."

I know of a Sheina yid who is had to run away for 10 years and continues to scam people in his new industry. People continue old patterns even when they dont need to. There are many sociopaths who get off on "getting away with it". Its a sickness.

There is much to be written about making amends and paying back creditors. Maybe we should start a spinoff 12 Step thread.

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 08:51:41 AM
All these posts about not getting angry are missing the point and quite insensitive.
The guy got screwed and wishes the person to be punished as a deterrent (or to simply stop this guy from continuing to screw others). .

You guys remind me of this:
https://youtu.be/IhmKxa_FMkU
Read about 1000 posts back. Deterrent effect of incarceration is fantasy. If it did have that effect, why do we still have people that steal?

Its revenge they seek. I'm not disagreeing that some incarceration may help. Punitive lengthy sentences is what doesnt make sense to me. To use it as leverage, as was done in my case, is low. I cant, however, judge what he was thinking. He didnt need the money and he didnt get it all back. And I wasnt able to pay anyway. I owe the money to others instead. Did it accomplish anything other than setting me straight, no. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Something Fishy on December 08, 2017, 08:56:55 AM
Deterrent effect of incarceration is fantasy.

...

Did it accomplish anything other than setting me straight, no.

Doesn't the second sentence prove that there was a deterrent effect on your case?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 09:02:58 AM
Doesn't the second sentence prove that there was a deterrent effect on your case?
In most cases, no. I went to jail 2 years into my recovery. So it was the jail that helped my recovery. It rarely has the effect it has had on me.

And again, short sentences are ok. Im not saying i didnt need it. It worked for me. My frie d who spent 4 years in Otisville was scheming the whole time he was there.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2017, 09:34:07 AM
Read about 1000 posts back. Deterrent effect of incarceration is fantasy. If it did have that effect, why do we still have people that steal?

Because they keep getting away with it as proven by the numerous stories.
In our community people get away with far more then they would in the real world.
Maybe its time for people to start considering the consequences of their actions, whether it's destroying families or facing an unjust justice system. I'm not saying they should be punished unjustly, but then again if someone gets screwed it shouldn't be their concern how the guy gets punished.

Quote
Its revenge they seek. I'm not disagreeing that some incarceration may help. Punitive lengthy sentences is what doesnt make sense to me. To use it as leverage, as was done in my case, is low. I cant, however, judge what he was thinking. He didnt need the money and he didnt get it all back. And I wasnt able to pay anyway. I owe the money to others instead. Did it accomplish anything other than setting me straight, no.

You keep talking about yourself. But in your case you say that you truly wanted to pay back.
These thieves don't want to pay a penny back. Also, even in your case it sounds like you were reformed quite a bit by the system. So who knows whether you would've actually tried to pay back if you didn't undergo that experience.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 09:40:34 AM
In most cases, no. I went to jail 2 years into my recovery. So it was the jail that helped my recovery. It rarely has the effect it has had on me.
If living like a sub-human doesnít deter someone then we need to protect society from this individual.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 09:41:58 AM
Because they keep getting away with it as proven by the numerous stories.
In our community people get away with far more then they would in the real world.
Maybe its time for people to start considering the consequences of their actions, whether it's destroying families or facing an unjust justice system. I'm not saying they should be punished unjustly, but then again if someone gets screwed it shouldn't be their concern how the guy gets punished.
So you would risk many SMRs?
You keep talking about yourself. But in your case you say that you truly wanted to pay back.
These thieves don't want to pay a penny back. Also, even in your case it sounds like you were reformed quite a bit by the system. So who knows whether you would've actually tried to pay back if you didn't undergo that experience.
I can only talk from my experience and about my story. I still havent paid back. He got the money that he got from money that was raised not from me. If we bail out every guy the way I was אין לדבר סוף. I was licky to have people who believed in my recovery. Most who get bailed out end up right back doimg their old shtick. Twersky has a whole video on this.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 09:44:17 AM
If living like a sub-human doesnít deter someone then we need to protect society from this individual.
What are the purpose of FCI camps?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2017, 09:48:22 AM
So you would risk many SMRs?

IDK what relevance SMR has to do with the discussion.
From what I remember his case started with the feds, not from the creditors.
Quote
I can only talk from my experience and about my story. I still havent paid back. He got the money that he got from money that was raised not from me. If we bail out every guy the way I was אין לדבר סוף. I was licky to have people who believed in my recovery. Most who get bailed out end up right back doimg their old shtick. Twersky has a whole video on this.

Yes, that was your case.
But you are smart enough to put 2 +2 together.
You see people living richly off stolen gains, they can pay back every dime, or at least make an attempt to do it, yet just continue stealing. They are not your case. They do not deserve to get away scot-free or continue what they're doing.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 09:50:32 AM
What are the purpose of FCI camps?
Not sure but I would guess for non-violent crimes/criminals.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 10:03:37 AM
Not sure but I would guess for non-violent crimes/criminals.
And how does that help?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 10:06:12 AM
And how does that help?
Who said it helps?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 10:10:28 AM
If living like a sub-human doesnít deter someone then we need to protect society from this individual.
What are the purpose of FCI camps?
Not sure but I would guess for non-violent crimes/criminals.
And how does that help?
Who said it helps?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 10:13:22 AM

What point are you trying to make?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dawie on December 08, 2017, 10:18:06 AM
Nah, my TRs can't hold up a candle kernel compared to the popcorn here.
Why not? I don't see the harm in starting a popcorn worthy thread. We havent had one in a while.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 10:20:38 AM
What point are you trying to make?
Most forms of incarceration are punitive only. They are not rehabilitative as society would wish them to be.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 10:23:13 AM
Most forms of incarceration are punitive only. They are not rehabilitative as society would wish them to be.
You have the wrong guy. Prison is to punish and incarcerate. If it deters or rehabilitates someone that is a bonus.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 10:30:49 AM
You have the wrong guy. Prison is to punish and incarcerate. If it deters or rehabilitates someone that is a bonus.
And how does that help?
If it is not a deterrent and not rehabilitative and only punitive then its purpose is to lock away those that are a danger to society and to exact mob mentality revenge in the form of government sanctioned and run punishment facilities. Sound about right?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2017, 10:35:18 AM
If it is not a deterrent and not rehabilitative and only punitive then its purpose is to lock away those that are a danger to society and to exact mob mentality revenge in the form of government sanctioned and run punishment facilities. Sound about right?

Even if its not a deterrent when they get out, at the very least its a deterrent when they're in prison.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 08, 2017, 10:37:29 AM
Even if its not a deterrent when they get out, at the very least its a deterrent when they're in prison.
Thus making it a temporary solution for a serious problem. Why not just invest in a permanent solution? Wouldn't that effectively be cheaper?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2017, 10:38:45 AM
Thus making it a temporary solution for a serious problem. Why not just invest in a permanent solution? Wouldn't that effectively be cheaper?

A lot easier said than done.
Until that happens, better to do something than nothing at all.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yzj on December 08, 2017, 10:48:23 AM
Most forms of incarceration are punitive only. They are not rehabilitative as society would wish them to be.

They call them correctional facilities for a reason. Obviously the system has gone awry...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 10:50:16 AM
Even if its not a deterrent when they get out, at the very least its a deterrent when they're in prison.
Same effect as debtors' prisons. Useless.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 08, 2017, 10:50:20 AM
A lot easier said than done.
Until that happens, better to do something than nothing at all.
Agreed, but at least make a failing effort. No? I don't carry a strong opinion on this matter overall, I just hate seeing work done twice because it want done right.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 10:53:09 AM
IDK what relevance SMR has to do with the discussion.
From what I remember his case started with the feds, not from the creditors.

Someone just said...

Because they keep getting away with it as proven by the numerous stories.
In our community people get away with far more then they would in the real world.
Maybe its time for people to start considering the consequences of their actions, whether it's destroying families or facing an unjust justice system. I'm not saying they should be punished unjustly, but then again if someone gets screwed it shouldn't be their concern how the guy gets punished.

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 10:55:26 AM
Yes, that was your case.
But you are smart enough to put 2 +2 together.
You see people living richly off stolen gains, they can pay back every dime, or at least make an attempt to do it, yet just continue stealing. They are not your case. They do not deserve to get away scot-free or continue what they're doing.

And i recall someone saying...
I doubt any of the people in the above scenarios are "living the high life". If they gambled away the money, then they're probably still gambling and the high life scenario is just a facade. Theyre stealing money elsewhere. Guaranteed.

Someone who has the money to repay and makes no effort to repay and shows no remorse is a sociopath.

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 10:59:19 AM
Maybe they should have night and weekend prison for white collar criminals. Make them go to work during the day and repay their debts and come to sleep at night and on alternate weekends in prison. This way, if they dont pay back, the threat of more permanent incarceration gets them rehabilitated.

What purpose does society gain from Bernie Madoff sitting in Butner, NC? Get him out to work. Unless his incarceration is for his safety.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 08, 2017, 10:59:22 AM
i also find it easy to believe that people that are locked up  in one of these hell holes with the  cream of the crap as roomies , they come out worse off and in a better position to commit more crimes.
when you are fighting for survival you lose alot of sensitivity to right and wrong and that probably sticks around after you're out. which sooner or later gets u right back in
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2017, 11:01:23 AM
Someone just said...

Still not getting it.
We're discussing the consequences of bringing charges against another person, what does that have to do with SMR?

Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:02:36 AM
i also find it easy to believe that people that are locked up  in one of these hell holes with the  cream of the crap as roomies , they come out worse off and in a better position to commit more crimes.
when you are fighting for survival you lose alot of sensitivity to right and wrong and that probably sticks around after you're out. which sooner or later gets u right back in
i have less fear of going back to prison, for sure. The fear of the unknown is what stops some. i.e. If I was threatened on the street physically, I wouldnt back down out of fear of going to jail. I am much more street savvy now than I was then. I have had punk kids harass me once or twice since and I definitely handle it differently. There is a sureness in my response that makes them back down.   
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2017, 11:03:33 AM
Same effect as debtors' prisons. Useless.

Useless?
Tell that to the families of the people they continue screwing every day.

Quote
Someone who has the money to repay and makes no effort to repay and shows no remorse is a sociopath.

So a sociopath should not be kept in prison?
Do you enjoy making everything into a riddle?


Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 08, 2017, 11:07:56 AM
Useless?
Tell that to the families of the people they continue screwing every day.

So a sociopath should not be kept in prison?
Do you enjoy making everything into a riddle?
your're using the example of a sociopath who does belong in jail simply to prevent more victims , when the issue is with people that commited a crime of opportunity where putting them in jail with violent career criminals makes zero sense.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 11:11:52 AM
What purpose does society gain from Bernie Madoff sitting in Butner, NC? Get him out to work. Unless his incarceration is for his safety.
He destroyed lives. He deserves to be punished for that. You want him to go back destroying more lives so he can payoff the first batch he destroyed?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:13:03 AM
Still not getting it.
We're discussing the consequences of bringing charges against another person, what does that have to do with SMR?
Thats what happens with an unjust justice system. Thats the flip side of. Also, he didnt pay his creditors at the end of the day. How he got there is another issue.

I know I'm gonna get killed for saying this, but my personal belief is that he didnt show any remorse at all and that is what keeps him there today. Did you once hear from him or his messengers "I'm sorry. I messed up. I didn't do this on purpose and it got away from me." No you didnt. There is no question that he is a korban and was over-charged and over-sentenced. But when there is only..."This is anti-semitism. This is unequal treatment." instead of contrite remorseful behavior, what do you expect to get back from the ones that punished him.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:13:33 AM
He destroyed lives. He deserves to be punished for that. You want him to go back destroying more lives so he can payoff the first batch he destroyed?
No make him sleep there and work McDonalds during the day.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 11:15:18 AM
No make him sleep there and work McDonalds during the day.
Lets just make them work in prison. Now we covered both bases!!!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:15:50 AM
Useless?
Tell that to the families of the people they continue screwing every day.


Then why dont we have debtors' prisons anymore?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:16:50 AM
Lets just make them work in prison. Now we covered both bases!!!
I didnt get to $0.75 an hour yet. $32 weekly take home pay. I think he can do better at McDonalds.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 08, 2017, 11:19:13 AM
Lets just make them work in prison. Now we covered both bases!!!
the productivity of a guy locked up looking over his shoulder waiting to be shanked is probably considerably lower than pretty much anybody. he would be able to make restitution a lot faster if he would have a normal job while either under a evening curfew or even back in jail during his non working hrs. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 08, 2017, 11:19:38 AM
I didnt get to $0.75 an hour yet. $32 weekly take home pay. I think he can do better at McDonalds.
+1
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 11:20:21 AM
I didnt get to $0.75 an hour yet. $32 weekly take home pay. I think he can do better at McDonalds.
True but working at McDonalds is to much of a taste of freedom. PUNISH, INCARIRATE and anything else is a bonus!!!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:20:24 AM
Useless?
So a sociopath should not be kept in prison?
Do you enjoy making everything into a riddle?
No I'm saying there are sociopaths out there and there are sociopaths in jail. Someone who has money and doesnt pay back should be shunned in our communities. That is a communal issue, not a state issue. Our Bais Din system and system of dealing with people who belong in cherem needs to be strengthened.

I've never gotten a straight answer whether there were Prisons in ancient times when Bais Din had power. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 11:21:00 AM
the productivity of a guy locked up looking over his shoulder waiting to be shanked is probably considerably lower than pretty much anybody. he would be able to make restitution a lot faster if he would have a normal job while either under a evening curfew or even back in jail during his non working hrs.
That's not the reason we have prisons!!!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:21:15 AM
True but working at McDonalds is to much of a taste of freedom. PUNISH, INCARIRATE and anything else is a bonus!!!
Spoken like a true graduate of FC Institute of Shenanigans.  ;D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 08, 2017, 11:22:32 AM
True but working at McDonalds is to much of a taste of freedom. PUNISH, INCARIRATE and anything else is a bonus!!!
what does society gain from punishment besides for our YUGE rate of recidivism?!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:22:47 AM
That's not the reason we have prisons!!!
We established that. Its so you can get your kicks out of seeing someone suffer. See e.g. OINK
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 11:24:17 AM
Spoken like a true graduate of FC Institute of Shenanigans.  ;D
How long was your sentence? Compare that with someone who that gets three years for pot with not even a parking ticket as a prior.  :P
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 08, 2017, 11:25:16 AM
How long was your sentence? Compare that with someone who that gets three years for pot with not even a parking ticket as a prior.  :P
thats agreeably just as crazy
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2017, 11:25:19 AM
No I'm saying there are sociopaths out there and there are sociopaths in jail. Someone who has money and doesnt pay back should be shunned in our communities. That is a communal issue, not a state issue. Our Bais Din system and system of dealing with people who belong in cherem needs to be strengthened.

I've never gotten a straight answer whether there were Prisons in ancient times when Bais Din had power.

Shunning is useless and many times will be met with "there must be 2 sides of the story" or the guy just ends up in a different jewish community doing the same thing. If he did the crime he does the time. If someone is indeed remorseful and will be reformed then yes there should be better options, but saying to do nothing but shunning until a better option exists is not good enough.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:27:43 AM
How long was your sentence? Compare that with someone who that gets three years for pot with not even a parking ticket as a prior.  :P
Possession with intent to distribute or just personal use possession?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 08, 2017, 11:28:56 AM
Shunning is useless and many times will be met with "there must be 2 sides of the story" or the guy just ends up in a different jewish community doing the same thing. If he did the crime he does the time. If someone is indeed remorseful and will be reformed then yes there should be better options, but saying to do nothing but shunning until a better option exists is not good enough.
difference is shunning is a tool that is used by batei dinim( ksav siruv) today while lock ups arent
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 11:30:16 AM
We established that. Its so you can get your kicks out of seeing someone suffer. See e.g. OINK
If you consider "get your kicks out" by not shedding a tear when I read the Milwaukee Cannibal was beaten to death in prison then I am your guy.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 11:31:20 AM
Possession with intent to distribute or just personal use possession?
It depends how you look at it. It was 150lbs but some are heavy users.  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:31:27 AM
If you consider "get your kicks out" by not shedding a tear when I read the Milwaukee Cannibal was beaten to death in prison then I am your guy.
None of what I say in this thread to be clear is related to violent crimes
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: elit on December 08, 2017, 11:31:36 AM
you keep looking at deterant as meaning a deterant for the one going to prison. the way i understand deterant is a deterant so others don't commit a crime in the first place. and again pointing to people that commit crimes as proof that it doesn't work as a deterant is a mistake.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:31:52 AM
It depends how you look at it. It was 150lbs but some are heavy users.  :)
Somehow I knew that would be your answer
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 11:33:44 AM
Somehow I knew that would be your answer
It is pot. If anything it comes as close to a victimless crime as you can get.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 08, 2017, 11:34:29 AM
you keep looking at deterant as meaning a deterant for the one going to prison. the way i understand deterant is a deterant so others don't commit a crime in the first place. and again pointing to people that commit crimes as proof that it doesn't work as a deterant is a mistake.
if detterant keeps people from commiting crimes in the first place than why does america have the highest ratio to population in prison  IN THE WORLD as of oct 2013? seems like might not be dettering too well
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2017, 11:34:39 AM
difference is shunning is a tool that is used by batei dinim( ksav siruv) today while lock ups arent

I'm not so sure Bais Din would not lock up people today if they had the power to.
But besides that, dina demalchusa dina, the tool that works is the tool that has legal power.
Whens the last person that was publicly shunned ever did teshuva?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 11:35:10 AM
None of what I say in this thread to be clear is related to violent crimes
Some so-called white collar crimes are worse than violent crimes.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:35:50 AM
you keep looking at deterant as meaning a deterant for the one going to prison. the way i understand deterant is a deterant so others don't commit a crime in the first place. and again pointing to people that commit crimes as proof that it doesn't work as a deterant is a mistake.
Again I am in the minority that believes that if someone is going to commit a crime they are going to commit the crime anyway penal law notwithstanding penalty notwithstanding. I don't know what type of deterrent you are referring to. A law-abiding citizen will remain so because of his morals, not because there are laws preventing him from acting out. I don't subscribe to the theory of a society breaking down into Anarchy if there were no punishments.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: elit on December 08, 2017, 11:35:57 AM
if detterant keeps people from commiting crimes in the first place than why does america have the highest ratio to population in prison  IN THE WORLD as of oct 2013? seems like might not be dettering too well
im sure you can throw around all kinds of studies and anecdotal evidence either way. i was just making one specific point about the logic behind the deterant reasoning
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:37:13 AM
It is pot. If anything it comes as close to a victimless crime as you can get.
Tell that to all the people in the silent killer threads whose parents are wringing their hands today because their kids started with pot as a gateway drug. And yes I know we disagree on that too.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 08, 2017, 11:37:32 AM
I'm not so sure Bais Din would not lock up people today if they had the power to.
But besides that, dina demalchusa dina, the tool that works is the tool that has legal power.
Whens the last person that was publicly shunned ever did teshuva?
any source that they did lock people up when they had power... the only lock up i know of was the mkoshesh eitzim and that was just until they received instructions whaat to do with him
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 11:37:48 AM
if detterant keeps people from commiting crimes in the first place than why does america have the highest ratio to population in prison  IN THE WORLD as of oct 2013? seems like might not be dettering too well
You look at it the wrong way. We are #1 in the world in locking up criminals!!!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2017, 11:37:56 AM
if detterant keeps people from commiting crimes in the first place than why does america have the highest ratio to population in prison  IN THE WORLD as of oct 2013? seems like might not be dettering too well

That doesn't prove anything.
It's because we lock up people for petty crimes like smoking pot.
But that doesn't mean that locking up people for financial crimes is not deterring more crimes.
It is so obvious that if the punishment was significantly reduced we would see a huge surge of financial crime in our community involving higher amounts than before.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 11:39:12 AM
Tell that to all the people in the silent killer threads whose parents are ringing their hands today because their kids started with pot as a gateway drug. And yes I know we disagree on that too.
Pure BS and study after study proves it. Use that logic and alcohol would be the number one gateway drug.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:42:03 AM
Pure BS and study after study proves it. Use that logic and alcohol would be the number one gateway drug.
Correct, in our community it is. Maybe not in the community at large.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 08, 2017, 11:43:05 AM
Correct, in our community it is. Maybe not in the community at large.
+100
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:46:08 AM
You look at it the wrong way. We are #1 in the world in locking up criminals!!!
#MAGA? We're already the greatest.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 11:47:41 AM
Correct, in our community it is. Maybe not in the community at large.
What about smoking? Lets not forget that gateway drug. Lets see we have pot, cigarettes and alcohol just to mention three that are gateway drugs. So what do we have like 50%+ of the country shooting up on heroin?  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 11:48:40 AM
I know it is Friday but can we please get back to the story?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 11:50:52 AM
What about smoking? Lets not forget that gateway drug. Lets see we have pot, cigarettes and alcohol just to mention three that are gateway drugs. So what do we have like 50%+ of the country shooting up on heroin?  :)
Smoking is not mood altering the way alcohol and pot are. And in any event, in our community they are most definitely gateway drugs. I dont believe you are familiar enough with the OTD and drug sub-cultures in the Orthodox community to equate this to national norms.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 12:07:55 PM
Smoking is not mood altering the way alcohol and pot are. And in any event, in our community they are most definitely gateway drugs. I dont believe you are familiar enough with the OTD and drug sub-cultures in the Orthodox community to equate this to national norms.
I hope you are not going to tell me so-called gateway drugs effect Jews differently. The reason for OTD and drug sub-cultures in the Orthodox community is obvious but I am not that stupid to go there.  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 12:17:14 PM
I hope you are not going to tell me so-called gateway drugs effect Jews differently. The reason for OTD and drug sub-cultures in the Orthodox community is obvious but I am not that stupid to go there.  :)
I'm saying exactly that it affect sheltered kids in a much different way than it affect your average American Kids
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 12:24:27 PM
I'm saying exactly that it affect sheltered kids in a much different way than it affect your average American Kids
Now duck and run.  ;)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 12:36:08 PM
Now duck and run.  ;)
Another case of I can say it, you cant.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 12:40:26 PM
Another case of I can say it, you cant.
I can but holds more weight when one of their own says it.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 08, 2017, 12:43:05 PM
Time for a prison thread DO.  Let's do a breakfast, at 5AM
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 12:44:02 PM
Time for a prison thread DO.  Let's do a breakfast, at 5AM
You need to stay in threads you belong! Boo
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 12:48:06 PM
Time for a prison thread DO.  Let's do a breakfast, at 5AM
5am CST aint that bad. Even EST isnt that bad considering the number of times a month I'm at Newark for the UA TLV pickup.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 08, 2017, 12:52:20 PM
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Prison-Diary-1-Hell/dp/0330418599

Read this series, its as riveting as it gets. Jeffery Archer is an amazing story teller, and his experiences are similar to @hvaces42. @hvaces42 , you too should write a book!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: as2 on December 08, 2017, 12:58:52 PM
You need to stay in threads you belong! Boo
Are you implying @henche doesn't belong in prison?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 01:00:10 PM
Are you implying @henche doesn't belong in prison?
Wouldn't last a day.  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: elit on December 08, 2017, 01:22:52 PM
Again I am in the minority that believes that if someone is going to commit a crime they are going to commit the crime anyway penal law notwithstanding penalty notwithstanding. I don't know what type of deterrent you are referring to. A law-abiding citizen will remain so because of his morals, not because there are laws preventing him from acting out. I don't subscribe to the theory of a society breaking down into Anarchy if there were no punishments.
it doesn't have to be so black or white. you only have 2 types of people ppl that commit crimes no matter what and ppl that don't no matter what. I think it's very logical to assume that there are ppl in the middle...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2017, 01:43:07 PM
I manage bookings for a luxurious apartment in Israel, today I get a message from a "frum" family requesting a strictly kosher apartment for Passover. I looked them up (they gave all their names) and find a lawsuit showing they stole millions of dollars from countless people and the wife went to prison for just a few months while the husband still has cushy job. They never paid anyone back but still living the high life.

So something is definitely wrong with our justice system but it goes both ways.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2017, 01:45:18 PM
I manage bookings for a luxurious apartment in Israel, today I get a message from a "frum" family requesting a strictly kosher apartment for Passover. I looked them up (they gave all their names) and find a lawsuit showing they stole millions of dollars from countless people and the wife went to prison for just a few months while the husband still has cushy job. They never paid anyone back but still living the high life.

So something is definitely wrong with our justice system but it goes both ways.
Do they get the apartment?  :)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2017, 01:51:26 PM
Do they get the apartment?  :)

I would be glad to kosher their money for them :)
NOT
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 08, 2017, 01:59:11 PM
No I'm saying there are sociopaths out there and there are sociopaths in jail. Someone who has money and doesnt pay back should be shunned in our communities. That is a communal issue, not a state issue. Our Bais Din system and system of dealing with people who belong in cherem needs to be strengthened.

I've never gotten a straight answer whether there were Prisons in ancient times when Bais Din had power. 
There were. It was called a kippa
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 02:12:57 PM
There were. It was called a kippa
Source? And what was their purpose and use?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 08, 2017, 02:16:24 PM
Source? And what was their purpose and use?
They were definitely used to lock people in to give them the death penalty by feeding them in a way that would kill them.. I don't remember if it was used for more than that. I do think that it is what they did after B"D moved out of lishkas hagozis but need to look it up.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2017, 02:20:35 PM
There were also Arei Miklat for murderers.
Sort of like the ancient but extreme version of fleeing the country.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: skyguy918 on December 08, 2017, 02:21:19 PM
They were definitely used to lock people in to give them the death penalty by feeding them in a way that would kill them.. I don't remember if it was used for more than that. I do think that it is what they did after B"D moved out of lishkas hagozis but need to look it up.
Sanhedrin 9:4 (https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%94_%D7%A1%D7%A0%D7%94%D7%93%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9F_%D7%98_%D7%94)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 02:27:23 PM
There were also Arei Miklat for murderers.
Sort of like the ancient but extreme version of fleeing the country.
Like certain neighborhoods in Brooklyn. ;D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 02:29:30 PM
I still haven't seen anything regarding incarceration for financial crimes. Eved Ivri is the closest it gets. And thats paradise compared to what we are discussing.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 08, 2017, 02:32:26 PM
I still haven't seen anything regarding incarceration for financial crimes. Eved Ivri is the closest it gets. And thats paradise compared to what we are discussing.
If they are financial crimes with malkus
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: skyguy918 on December 08, 2017, 02:35:22 PM
If they are financial crimes with malkus
Has to be a lav with kares.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 08, 2017, 02:38:59 PM
Has to be a lav with kares.
Okay
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: skyguy918 on December 08, 2017, 02:40:14 PM
Okay
Are there any financial crimes that are a lav with kares?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 08, 2017, 02:40:56 PM
Are there any financial crimes that are a lav with kares?
Don't think so
 The okay meant that if so I was mistaken.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 08, 2017, 02:43:32 PM
I still haven't seen anything regarding incarceration for financial crimes. Eved Ivri is the closest it gets. And thats paradise compared to what we are discussing.
Six years of slavery is pretty bad.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 02:44:31 PM
Six years of slavery is pretty bad.
Can't be any worse than the last 7 years of my life
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Yammer on December 08, 2017, 02:51:04 PM
Time for a prison thread DO.  Let's do a breakfast, at 5AM
ALOL
There were also Arei Miklat for murderers.
Sort of like the ancient but extreme version of fleeing the country.
Actually more like a prison, but confined to a city/town.

And part of it was the rehabilitation program there..
I still haven't seen anything regarding incarceration for financial crimes. Eved Ivri is the closest it gets. And thats paradise compared to what we are discussing.
Paying back double is a deterrent as well.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Yammer on December 08, 2017, 02:51:41 PM
Six years of slavery is pretty bad.
While I'm not disagreeing, it wasn't the typical slavery.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 08, 2017, 02:53:56 PM
Can't be any worse than the last 7 years of my life
That sounds very possible, but we haven't heard yet about after your time in Rikers. I'm not so sure that the eved did so great after the six years either.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 03:20:14 PM
That sounds very possible, but we haven't heard yet about after your time in Rikers. I'm not so sure that the eved did so great after the six years either.
He lived with his family during the six years his owner had to take care of him. After the 6 years were up he had no debt. I wish that were the case. I'm not saying that my life is not blessed, it is, beyond. Cleaning up this mess will take a very long time and I intend to clean it up to the last penny. It should get easier after I get my license back. But then again there are no guarantees in life.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 08, 2017, 03:35:59 PM
He lived with his family during the six years his owner had to take care of him.
He did avodas laylo.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2017, 03:51:15 PM
Actually more like a prison, but confined to a city/town.

So basically not prison but exile.
Sounds very similar to fleeing.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 03:55:21 PM
So basically not prison but exile.
Sounds very similar to fleeing.
Compare that with not leaving a building for however long it is because to go to "yard" was to invite trouble.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2017, 04:03:12 PM
Compare that with not leaving a building for however long it is because to go to "yard" was to invite trouble.

Just curious: if the judge gave you an option of being deported and never coming back or to go through what you went through (with full knowledge of what it entails), what would you choose?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 08, 2017, 04:10:55 PM
Just curious: if the judge gave you an option of being deported and never coming back or to go through what you went through (with full knowledge of what it entails), what would you choose?
Deported to where? I could have fled for less than forever. Knowing what I know now I would do the the time.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: yuneeq on December 09, 2017, 06:53:04 PM
Deported to where? I could have fled for less than forever. Knowing what I know now I would do the the time.

Deported to anywhere but the US.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: pixi on December 09, 2017, 06:54:58 PM
He did avodas laylo.
-1
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 09, 2017, 06:55:35 PM
Deported to anywhere but the US.
No. Prison over deportation.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 09, 2017, 07:07:12 PM
To try to describe what goes on in the dorms on a daily basis is nearly impossible. I'll try though. The dorm I was in was a transit dorm. Most people didnt stay for more than 10 days. Either they were moved to other dorms based on classification, or they "bailed out" or moved to work dorms if they got a job.

All of these were unsentences inmates. As an unsentenced inmate you can wear street clothes. Some inmates got prison issue sneakers, i had my own shoes.

Sometime during my first day I was summoned to the chaplains office and he handed me my Talis and Tefillin that were given to him by this person we knew. He also gave me a bit of a pep talk and advised me what I was entitled to as a religious person. He told me that he put me on the list to get glatt meals as opposed to regular kosher meals the "Black Israelites" got. He told me it would be better if I dont eat the bread and that I was entitled to matza every morning and I could take it to my dorm. On Friday he wouldnt be there but the jewish inmates got to go to services, which meant you got an hour, at some point in the afternoon, to go to the chapel, a classroom, for a half cup of grape juice and matza. I wasnt about to make kiddush at 3pm on a Long friday so I had the cup of grape juice and madr kiddush on matzah later.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 09, 2017, 07:30:40 PM
Any other frum Jews there while your where there?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 09, 2017, 07:34:45 PM
Any other frum Jews there while your where there?
1 kid who was there for a few days and bailed out. One guy who was on trial for vehicular manslaughter. One mentally ill kid who belonged in a mental ward but was there for allegedly molesting a kid. One chasidish guy who was in transit upstate on a molestation charge. None in my dorm.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 09, 2017, 11:39:24 PM
There is a sureness in my response that makes them back down.   
would love to hear what you said.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: real-brisker on December 09, 2017, 11:57:47 PM
One mentally ill kid who belonged in a mental ward but was there for allegedly molesting a kid. One chasidish guy who was in transit upstate on a molestation charge. None in my dorm.
sounds kinda creepy being around them...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 10, 2017, 01:13:59 AM


I find it very interesting that the only thing that's been challenged here is my contention that the COs mistreat the inmates. No ADA has come here and said that what I'm saying is incorrect. No one that works there has denied that the conditions are as deplorable as mentioned.

I've only seen one person argue with that fact that inmates are abused. A couple of people have said they have it coming, but haven't argued with the fact that it happens.

I will say that very few of us are really exposed to and have to live with areas ravaged with crime (no, driving through Bed-Sty doesn't count), so we don't really know the flip side or understand the proclaimed need for these insane mandatory minimum sentences. As you've said repeatedly in the abused substances thread, there is a lack of awareness in our circles that the war on drugs ect is a full blown war against a huge, pernicious, ravaging enemy.

To a degree, it's similar to bleeding heart liberals decrying the treatment of Palestinians being searched at security lines without knowing the reality of having to look over your shoulder while walking down the street lest you have your throat slit or have a car ram into you.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Proisrael on December 10, 2017, 01:20:17 AM
The fact that you can't sue means something shady is going on. You keep ignoring this point.

I cannot sue because it is family and that would mean writing them off as well. No one else seems to understand my side. They fell bad for him that he has this " Gambling problem" they want to fix him and leave me to the side. The amount of times I heard the words "just forgive him and move on" is nauseating. No one says boo to him. He ruined many lives and I do not believe he was "healed" in the rehab places he went to.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 10, 2017, 01:37:18 AM
No I'm saying there are sociopaths out there and there are sociopaths in jail. Someone who has money and doesnt pay back should be shunned in our communities. That is a communal issue, not a state issue. Our Bais Din system and system of dealing with people who belong in cherem needs to be strengthened.

I've never gotten a straight answer whether there were Prisons in ancient times when Bais Din had power.
I've heard it said that בית אסורים is not a Jewish concept. The only prison BD had was a temporary holding cell, not long term incarceration. We believe ביטול מביא לידי חטא, not that it's rehabilitative. The punishments imposed were physical or financial, not emotional and psychological battering. Emotional destruction and instability doesn't heal or repair anyone. (Even with what you said that you came out of prison stronger; that was from fighting the environment, not gaining from it.) If you truly believe someone has no useful right to life among society anymore, then end it. BD was goal oriented, not vindicative. They looked forward, not backwards. If there was no forward to look to, then that was it. A life sentence of prolonged torture and dehumanization accomplishes nothing for anyone.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: David Smith on December 10, 2017, 01:43:35 AM
How long was your sentence? Compare that with someone who that gets three years for pot with not even a parking ticket as a prior. 
The war on drugs (with all the "civilian casualties" that war is wont to claim and the insane minimum sentencing guidelines) is arguably a different discussion (as is whether marijuana should be treated as drugs or not).
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 01:55:30 AM
I cannot sue because it is family and that would mean writing them off as well. No one else seems to understand my side. They fell bad for him that he has this " Gambling problem" they want to fix him and leave me to the side. The amount of times I heard the words "just forgive him and move on" is nauseating. No one says boo to him. He ruined many lives and I do not believe he was "healed" in the rehab places he went to.
I feel youre pain. You are in an ineviable position. It is very hard to write off family. We dont want to lose those closest to us. And as with many other situations, the ones closest to us hurt us the most.

As I mentioned i have been going to multiple meetings of Gamblers Anonymous on a weekly basis for the last 7 years. I have yet to see anyone in my 7 years who went to rehab and didnt continue meetings afterwards succeed in stopping.

Anyone that give him money ot "bails him out" whem he messes up is just an enabler. There are meetings of Gam-Anon for family and friends of compulsive gamblers that can help deal with the chaos caused by compulsive gamblers, even though the gambler himself doesnt go to meetings. Al-Anon may help as well.

Feel free to PM for more info.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Ergel on December 10, 2017, 02:41:14 AM
I cannot sue because it is family and that would mean writing them off as well. No one else seems to understand my side. They fell bad for him that he has this " Gambling problem" they want to fix him and leave me to the side. The amount of times I heard the words "just forgive him and move on" is nauseating. No one says boo to him. He ruined many lives and I do not believe he was "healed" in the rehab places he went to.
Sorry for doubting you. That's fair enough.
הקב"ה ימלא חסרונך
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Proisrael on December 10, 2017, 03:20:51 AM
I've heard it said that בית אסורים is not a Jewish concept. The only prison BD had was a temporary holding cell, not long term incarceration. We believe ביטול מביא לידי חטא, not that it's rehabilitative. The punishments imposed were physical or financial, not emotional and psychological battering. Emotional destruction and instability doesn't heal or repair anyone. (Even with what you said that you came out of prison stronger; that was from fighting the environment, not gaining from it.) If you truly believe someone has no useful right to life among society anymore, then end it. BD was goal oriented, not vindicative. They looked forward, not backwards. If there was no forward to look to, then that was it. A life sentence of prolonged torture and dehumanization accomplishes nothing for anyone.

The way Malkus is described would be enough of a deterrent for most people, though it seems like it was very hard to convict anyone based on the grilling of Eidus.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Ergel on December 10, 2017, 03:33:42 AM
מכת מרדות was a much lower threshold
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: a mirrer on December 10, 2017, 05:45:14 AM
Thats what happens with an unjust justice system. Thats the flip side of. Also, he didnt pay his creditors at the end of the day. How he got there is another issue.

I know I'm gonna get killed for saying this, but my personal belief is that he didnt show any remorse at all and that is what keeps him there today. Did you once hear from him or his messengers "I'm sorry. I messed up. I didn't do this on purpose and it got away from me." No you didnt. There is no question that he is a korban and was over-charged and over-sentenced. But when there is only..."This is anti-semitism. This is unequal treatment." instead of contrite remorseful behavior, what do you expect to get back from the ones that punished him.
+1
From what I've heard, the munkatcher rebbe told him in the beginning to take a plea and end it, however he kept on insisting that he was innocent and it would be a chilul hashem for him to say that he committed fraud.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 08:08:02 AM
+1
From what I've heard, the munkatcher rebbe told him in the beginning to take a plea and end it, however he kept on insisting that he was innocent and it would be a chilul hashem for him to say that he committed fraud.
I met with Munkatcher Rebbe as well. I can say this if I would have listened to what he had to say I would have ended up in a much worse position. He doesn't have all the answers. No one does.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dawie on December 10, 2017, 12:21:56 PM
Six years of slavery is pretty bad.
the whole idea of Eved Ivri was rehabilitation, you put a guy to live with a tzadik (no-one else would volunteer it seems)
If there is only one he gets it.. and other laws
all he's missing is freedom
(the dehumanization part was that if he was married the owner could pair him with a Shifcha and the children belong to the owner)
But by living with kindness he gets to realize that by taking away someone else's  possession is the exact opposite of kindness
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 12:53:01 PM
One thing that goes on all the time is "count". They count you before meals, after meals, at 2pm and a before bed. So you were counted 6 or 7 times a day.

They woke us at 5am. Breakfast is served at 5:30. Breakfast was not mandatory. I may have missed it once. The Rikers dorms sometimes felt like kindergarten for adults. For count you had to be by your bed. When going to meal you had to line up with a buddy along the wall in the hallway with your prison-issued cup in hand.

There was no talking in the hallways. We went down 3 flights of stairs to the mess floor. Through metal detectors, belt in hand holding my pants up. Every time the metal detector rang the line stopped.

We were lined up outside the mess hall and waited for one dorm to exit. The waybit worked was one dorm waited outside the mess hall. One was leaving. One was on line waiting for food and one was sitting and eating. Sometimes there were 2 dorms eating at the same time.

The regular inmates got their food from one slot. Matza at breakfast was served from another slot. Not that it came from a different place, just that they didnt want the line held up. I had to show my ID through the slot to the kitchen worker, who was another inmate. If the kitchen guy didnt like you he would slam the tray through the slot and if it fell, too bad. No food for you. One guy stuck his head to rush them and his tray ened up in his face. Another guy was caught stealing food in the dorm so the other inmates took his tray away. Jailhouse justice like that works. He didnt steal again.

Returning from meal was the same process in reverse. The way people smuggled food from the mess hall to the dorms was ingenius. Guys lined their pockets with bags and filled them with uneaten food. We were able to take back small bags of cereal.

I had special dispensation to take matza back with me. I was able to trade my "crackers" for other food.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: avromie7 on December 10, 2017, 02:52:41 PM
Thats what happens with an unjust justice system. Thats the flip side of. Also, he didnt pay his creditors at the end of the day. How he got there is another issue.

I know I'm gonna get killed for saying this, but my personal belief is that he didnt show any remorse at all and that is what keeps him there today. Did you once hear from him or his messengers "I'm sorry. I messed up. I didn't do this on purpose and it got away from me." No you didnt. There is no question that he is a korban and was over-charged and over-sentenced. But when there is only..."This is anti-semitism. This is unequal treatment." instead of contrite remorseful behavior, what do you expect to get back from the ones that punished him.
Until the feds got involved, no one lost money nor was anyone going to lose money. The only reason he couldn't pay it all back was because they completely destroyed the business and wouldn't allow any buyer to allow any of the rubashkins to be employed there.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 03:06:07 PM
Until the feds got involved, no one lost money nor was anyone going to lose money. The only reason he couldn't pay it all back was because they completely destroyed the business and wouldn't allow any buyer to allow any of the rubashkins to be employed there.
Because you can borrow from Peter to pay Paul and perpetuate it ad infinitum doesn't mean you didnt commit a crime initially. Many people continue to steal and cover and cover. You know what we call those...ponzi schemes. Eventually someone is left holding the bag.

I dont judge him at all. It not my business.

Your narrative is the party line. The government caused him to default. Lets accept that as true. Sometimes you have to say things because other people want/need to hear it even if its not true.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 10, 2017, 04:25:43 PM
Because you can borrow from Peter to pay Paul and perpetuate it ad infinitum doesn't mean you didnt commit a crime initially. Many people continue to steal and cover and cover. You know what we call those...ponzi schemes. Eventually someone is left holding the bag.

I dont judge him at all. It not my business.

Your narrative is the party line. The government caused him to default. Lets accept that as true. Sometimes you have to say things because other people want/need to hear it even if its not true.

This is not the thread for toys,  but that's not fair. There were offers to buy the company for more than the debt, thatthe feds nixed.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 09:09:42 PM
Seating in the mess hall is like you would expect in a prison. The seats are small circles in a row on both sides of long rows of tables. Meal lasts under 5 minutes. Whatever you dont eat is right in the garbage. Non-kosher fare looked scary.

Lunch and Dinner were the same procedure. Count before and after, line-up, metal detectors etc. 

For lunch and dinner the kosher stuff was edible, but small portions. Mainly La Briute meals without the self-heating element in the bowl. The meals were double wrapped and heated in hot water by the kitchen staff. There was a variety of 5 different meals.

https://labriutemeals.com/product/buffalo-style-chicken-wings-served-rice-corn/
https://labriutemeals.com/product/salisbury-steak-served-potatoes-gravy/
https://labriutemeals.com/product/vegetarian-stuffed-shells-sun-dried-tomato-sauce/
https://labriutemeals.com/product/cheese-ravioli/

and Meal Mart Franks and Beans which was more chulent with party size hot dogs than anything else.

I recall being served the Salisbury steak, which is a thick cooked ground beef patty, not steak, 5 meals in a row. Lunch, Dinner, Lunch, Dinner and Lunch. I will be ok if i never see that dish again in my life. Overall, for prison food they were decent. The other inmates were envious and I was able to trade these dishes easily for other commissary food. They were also easily transportable in my pocket for consumption at a later time. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Moshe123 on December 10, 2017, 09:26:07 PM
Thanks for the update. Keep them coming!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Moshke on December 10, 2017, 09:26:18 PM
It was a while ago a story that someone after he came out from prison went over to meal mart screaming why he so giving garbage food for the inmates while he has the opportunity to serve them something decent.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 09:28:59 PM
Thanks for the update. Keep them coming!
I feel like there are crickets here today  ;D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 10, 2017, 09:33:39 PM
I'm not sure if I understand why MealMart is responsible for giving better food. they probably give whatever they are paid for.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 09:33:54 PM
It was a while ago a story that someone after he came out from prison went over to meal mart screaming why he so giving garbage food for the inmates while he has the opportunity to serve them something decent.
I personally wouldnt eat the meal mart meal that they served. I believe it was served on the first day I was there and I ate it out of sheer hunger. They served it a few more times and I had a waiting list of willing dorm mates for it when it was served.

I have no issue with what was served. Except that it was starvation rations. Not enough calories.

I lost almost 25lbs. in a little more than a month.

And that was with eating commissary junk food.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 09:35:07 PM
I'm not sure if I understand why MealMart is responsible for giving better food. they probably give whatever they are paid for.
Come on, you cant be serious. They take top dollar for whatever they give. Its exactly the other way around. Thats how government contracts go.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Moshke on December 10, 2017, 09:35:35 PM
I'm not sure if I understand why MealMart is responsible for giving better food. they probably give whatever they are paid for.
100% right but a bit of רחמנות I'm sure that if money is the issue there is plenty organizations   
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: gingyguy on December 10, 2017, 09:36:25 PM
wow thats almost a pound a day!
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 09:36:52 PM
if money is the issue there is plenty organizations

I dont think you've been following the thread carefully enough  ;D
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 10, 2017, 09:37:06 PM
It's amazing how bad La Briute meals are.
Surely they can at least use a sauce they makes their meals more edible...
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 09:37:51 PM
It's amazing how bad La Briute meals are.
Surely they can at least use a sauce they makes their meals more edible...
They were edible, under the circumstances.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 10, 2017, 09:38:32 PM
They were edible, under the circumstances.
But just barely :P
I could not handle a month of them.
Title: Prison
Post by: Moshke on December 10, 2017, 09:39:35 PM
I dont think you've been following the thread carefully enough 
Ha I did and I know where u are referring.

But I know personal a person that distributes packages to inmates monthly

Federal Upstate facilities.

And you are right not a big famous org.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 09:42:24 PM
Ha I did and I know where u are referring.

But I know personal a person that distributes packages to inmates monthly

Federal Upstate facilities.

And you are right not a big famous org.
My phone just rang and it was him, I hope you didnt call him.

Also, I just spoke with someone tonight who visits Otisville weekly. He told me the food in the machines is not edible lately. The frum inmates are starving. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: pixi on December 10, 2017, 09:44:34 PM
But just barely
I could not handle a month of them.

I ate it out of sheer hunger.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Moshke on December 10, 2017, 09:55:27 PM
My phone just rang and it was him, I hope you didnt call him.

Also, I just spoke with someone tonight who visits Otisville weekly. He told me the food in the machines is not edible lately. The frum inmates are starving.
Nice speaking to you lol
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 10:04:08 PM
On the second day we went to commissary. I had no clue what this was about. You need to have money on your "books" in order to make phone calls and to go to commissary. You earn money through work or from family depositing money through an online system or at visits. I didnt get my Book & Case number (my inmate ID number) until later in the first day. You need that number for phone calls and for any papers you need to fill out, as well as for commissary.

In teh Commissary, which was a 6x15 room where they squeezed our entire dorm in. There is a window reinforced by steel gates the length of the 15 feet with 2 "cashiers" COs and a bunch of inmate order pickers. You could purchase food items, soda, slippers (which I didnt know you really needed for the showers) pencils, stamps, soap, toothpaste, transistor FM radios, batteries and pads of writing paper.   

Food items include kosher items that are not available for sale outside of prison. Kraft Mac and Cheese and Cheesy Rice (not CY) but with a good hechsher. These  http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=60858.msg1417890#msg1417890 Best chips I've ever had. Packets of tuna. Wraps. Hostess products. There were many non-kosher offerrings as well. Like non-kosher ramen noodles, which are a staple of inmates diets.

The second week Mayor Bloomberg decided that inmates needed healthier snack alternatives so they started selling Kind bars and removed all the Hostess products. So now those became very valuable commodities.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 10, 2017, 10:24:12 PM
Looks like these are all parve. Worth ordering?
http://wholeshabang.com/whole-shabang-variety-pack-click-for-details/
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 10:46:50 PM
Looks like these are all parve. Worth ordering?
http://wholeshabang.com/whole-shabang-variety-pack-click-for-details/
I think i mentioned it in the other thread. Maybe it was just great because i was hungry.  ;D

Definitely NOT worth $35.99
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 10, 2017, 10:49:40 PM
I think i mentioned it in the other thread. Maybe it was just great because i was hungry.  ;D

Definitely NOT worth $35.99


Includes:
2 Whole Shabang Original 6 oz. bags
2 Whole Shabang Extreme 6 oz. bags
2 Whole Shabang Extreme Crunchies 9.5 oz. bags
2 Whole Shabang Popcorn 5 oz. bags
4 Whole Shabang Peanuts 1.75 oz. bags
+Free Shipping
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 10:52:13 PM
Includes:
2 Whole Shabang Original 6 oz. bags
2 Whole Shabang Extreme 6 oz. bags
2 Whole Shabang Extreme Crunchies 9.5 oz. bags
2 Whole Shabang Popcorn 5 oz. bags
4 Whole Shabang Peanuts 1.75 oz. bags
+Free Shipping
I saw the whole Shabang. Get it.... ;D

I only had the originals. Go ahead, knock yourself out.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Deal Guy on December 10, 2017, 11:15:02 PM
How much does the food like chips cost there?
Your family can send as much money as they want and you can buy to your heart's content?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 11:23:58 PM
How much does the food like chips cost there?
Your family can send as much money as they want and you can buy to your heart's content?
Food was relatively inexpensive. You are limited to $125 per week. Saw a vuy lose 4 weeks of commissary in one card game. Thankfully i never played.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Deal Guy on December 10, 2017, 11:29:39 PM
Food was relatively inexpensive. You are limited to $125 per week. Saw a vuy lose 4 weeks of commissary in one card game. Thankfully i never played.
They allow you to play with the money? They dont want you saving it so you are able to buy food?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 11:33:38 PM
They allow you to play with the money? They dont want you saving it so you are able to buy food?
No there is no money available they bet weeks of commissary. And the loser has to purchase whatever the winner wants when you go to commissary. Or food that was already purchased. So you could bet cinnabuns or tuna packets.

There was a guy who was making $156 a week at his prison job and had $2500 bail which he couldnt make because he was gambling away his weekly pay.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Mordyk on December 10, 2017, 11:36:56 PM
No there is no money available they bet weeks of commissary. And the loser has to purchase whatever the winner wants when you go to commissary. Or food that was already purchased. So you could bet cinnabuns or tuna packets.

There was a guy who was making $156 a week at his prison job and had $2500 bail which he couldnt make because he was gambling away his weekly pay.
(getting a little personal but let me know if its too much) since you had an issue with this specifically, did they let you go to GA while there?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 10, 2017, 11:39:07 PM
(getting a little personal but let me know if its too much) since you had an issue with this specifically, did they let you go to GA while there?
There is no GA there. So, no, they didnt let me go anywhere. There is no help there.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: beeweegee on December 10, 2017, 11:52:59 PM
There is no GA there. So, no, they didnt let me go anywhere. There is no help there.
What is the role of the mental health professionals there? You mentioned sitting in a psychologist's office after a panic attack.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 11, 2017, 12:25:16 AM
What is the role of the mental health professionals there? You mentioned sitting in a psychologist's office after a panic attack.
Evaluation of inmates for mental health issues including suicidal tendencies. Honestly, I was using him just to see a frum person. Panic attack for me wasnt a continuous issue. It was in my head and I needed to get through it myself.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: miles lover on December 11, 2017, 02:00:47 AM
I met with Munkatcher Rebbe as well. I can say this if I would have listened to what he had to say I would have ended up in a much worse position. He doesn't have all the answers. No one does.
You mind sharing what he suggested with your case ?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: ckmk47 on December 11, 2017, 04:10:45 AM
He lived with his family during the six years his owner had to take care of him. After the 6 years were up he had no debt. I wish that were the case. I'm not saying that my life is not blessed, it is, beyond. Cleaning up this mess will take a very long time and I intend to clean it up to the last penny. It should get easier after I get my license back. But then again there are no guarantees in life.
If someone's debts weren't satisfied by the price he earned by being sold, he was sold again after shmita.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Ergel on December 11, 2017, 05:59:45 AM
If someone's debts weren't satisfied by the price he earned by being sold, he was sold again after shmita.
Source (not questioning, just curious to look it up)
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: beeweegee on December 11, 2017, 07:01:57 AM
Evaluation of inmates for mental health issues including suicidal tendencies. Honestly, I was using him just to see a frum person. Panic attack for me wasnt a continuous issue. It was in my head and I needed to get through it myself.
Just assessment, no intervention/therapy/counseling?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 11, 2017, 07:10:37 AM
Just assessment, no intervention/therapy/counseling?
Interventiom in the form of meds, for aure. But that's psychiatric treatment. I dont know about counseling/therapy. I do believe that they do crisis counseling. In my building there was no therapy that I knew of.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 11, 2017, 07:12:41 AM
You mind sharing what he suggested with your case ?
Turning myself in before i was even indicted. Giving up my law license a year before I did. Accepting a deal, if offered, for more time tban I actually got. Specifics are not important.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 11, 2017, 07:14:33 AM
Source (not questioning, just curious to look it up)
From my PM
"He lived with his family during the six years his owner had to take care of him. After the 6 years were up he had no debt" 
Although the slave went free after 6 years he was not debt free. If there was still outstanding debt, he was obligated to pay it up .... Look up the   רמבם הלכות גניבה פרק ג הלכה יד
And
There is a מחלוקת in the gemora קידושין דף יח whether or both not the עבד can be sold again at the end of the 6 year period if his servitude wasn't worth the amount stolen.... I haven't fully researched,  but from what i saw it doesn't seem to be disputed that there is an obligation to pay back the full amount even לפי השיטות that he can't be sold again.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 11, 2017, 08:25:37 AM
For every Rikers employee here who is reading this, lets see if we can get someone who needs it, some much needed help. There is a kid from a frum family sitting in GMDC in the "box" right now. 
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: mendy from lakewood on December 11, 2017, 08:45:16 AM
Reviews on yelp not bad 😉

https://m.yelp.com/biz/rikers-island-correctional-facility-east-elmhurst
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 11, 2017, 08:46:44 AM
Reviews on yelp not bad 😉

https://m.yelp.com/biz/rikers-island-correctional-facility-east-elmhurst
Question is, did they use the Amex offer to advertise. That being said...

My recovery is not your punchline.
And neither is my incarceration.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dan on December 11, 2017, 08:51:34 AM
Reviews on yelp not bad 😉

https://m.yelp.com/biz/rikers-island-correctional-facility-east-elmhurst
lol
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: cozmohoot on December 11, 2017, 09:55:48 AM
For every Rikers employee here who is reading this, lets see if we can get someone who needs it, some much needed help. There is a kid from a frum family sitting in GMDC in the "box" right now.
How do you know the specifics of where he is?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 11, 2017, 09:58:32 AM
How do you know the specifics of where he is?
Curiosity or you can help?
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 11, 2017, 10:01:17 AM
How do you know the specifics of where he is?
Curiosity or you can help?
If to help that should probably be by PM
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 11, 2017, 10:03:05 AM
If to help that should probably be by PM
Of course. Just making a point. And there is nothing to really do to help. Minor alleviation of sufferring at best.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: aygart on December 11, 2017, 10:04:17 AM
Of course. Just making a point.
I was only adding to your point directed at him.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Dawie on December 11, 2017, 10:05:29 AM
PAST :           Forget the past. No one becomes successful in the past.
JUSTICE :      Every man loves justice at another manís expense.
FEAR :            Fear gives intelligence even to fools.
FOCUS :         Nothing focuses the mind like a lack of options
MONEY :        The real measure of your wealth is how much you'd be worth if you lost all your money.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 11, 2017, 10:11:39 AM
PAST :           Forget the past. No one becomes successful in the past.
JUSTICE :      Every man loves justice at another manís expense.
FEAR :            Fear gives intelligence even to fools.
FOCUS :         Nothing focuses the mind like a lack of options
MONEY :        The real measure of your wealth is how much you'd be worth if you lost all your money.
+1000
Cant make a better past for yourself. Dont judge me by my past I dont live there anymore.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Deal Guy on December 11, 2017, 10:31:25 AM
Reviews on yelp not bad 😉

https://m.yelp.com/biz/rikers-island-correctional-facility-east-elmhurst
There are some NON RECOMMENDED reviews to see as well there.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: cozmohoot on December 11, 2017, 01:48:32 PM
Curiosity or you can help?
Just curious. Not trying to poke anyone
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: Qwertyuiop on December 11, 2017, 02:01:23 PM
There's frankly no reason why @ReadsTheT&C was called names and chased out of here. He is an integral part of this conversation, regardless of peoples emotions. Correctional officers, law enforcement and anyone involved with the Correction or judicial system needs to be part of this conversation. This is not a thread for name calling.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 11, 2017, 02:02:50 PM
There's frankly no reason why @ReadsTheT&C was called names and chased out of here. He is an integral part of this conversation, regardless of peoples emotions. Correctional officers, law enforcement and anyone involved with the Correction or judicial system needs to be part of this conversation. This is not a thread for name calling.

Thank you.

I didn't call him names, but I did chase him out. I made nice on a diff thread though.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 11, 2017, 02:06:26 PM
There's frankly no reason why @ReadsTheT&C was called names and chased out of here. He is an integral part of this conversation, regardless of peoples emotions. Correctional officers, law enforcement and anyone involved with the Correction or judicial system needs to be part of this conversation. This is not a thread for name calling.

Thank you.
No one chased anyone out. Your curiosity in starting this thread is appreciated. I don't think you understand the emotions involved, though
Nor do I expect you to understand. I believe if the mods had an issue they would have raised it.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 11, 2017, 02:13:27 PM
No one henchechased anyone him out. Your curiosity in starting this thread is appreciated. I don't think you understand the emotions involved, though
Nor do I expect you to understand. I believe if the mods had an issue they would have raised it.

I marked this up.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 11, 2017, 02:15:55 PM
I marked this up.
Can you give me a clean copy with the redline. #Lawyers
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 11, 2017, 02:27:15 PM
There's frankly no reason why @ReadsTheT&C was called names and chased out of here. He is an integral part of this conversation, regardless of peoples emotions. Correctional officers, law enforcement and anyone involved with the Correction or judicial system needs to be part of this conversation. This is not a thread for name calling.

Thank you.
U may have started this thread. But go away.
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: henche on December 11, 2017, 02:28:13 PM
U may have started this thread. But go away.

I've got competition.  I'll have to up my game
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 11, 2017, 02:28:17 PM
U may have started this thread. But go away.
Stop
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: hvaces42 on December 11, 2017, 02:29:14 PM
I've got competition.  I'll have to up my game
Your Alter Ego is not your competition
Title: Re: Prison
Post by: rs242 on December 11, 2017, 02:29:18 PM
Stop
You are right