Topic Wiki

Lots of stringencies, but you can keep one day shabbos in hawaii without guilt.

SFs pros and cons list: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=10713.msg68565#msg68565
« Last edited by Dan on October 20, 2016, 08:05:15 PM »

Author Topic: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons  (Read 323221 times)

Offline CZ60

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 429
  • Total likes: 38
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: New York
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #820 on: December 25, 2016, 07:23:16 PM »
Middle eastern sepharadim (at least those from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Israel) don't have al hamilchamot. We have niflaot and nehamot but no milhamot.

Offline bb1836

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 3462
  • Total likes: 435
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 154
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #821 on: December 25, 2016, 07:40:56 PM »
Is Chabad the only ones that don't thank Gd for the wars in Al Hanisim?
We Yekees say Al Hamilchamos in Al Hanisim but not in Haneiros Halalu. (see Rudelheim Siddur)
As @davidmal says: "Likes" feed the family

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #822 on: December 25, 2016, 07:57:58 PM »
We Yekees say Al Hamilchamos in Al Hanisim but not in Haneiros Halalu. (see Rudelheim Siddur)
As I said
There's definitely a distinction between the Haneiros halolu (which is for the נס פך השמן) and ועל הניסים (which is about winning the war).

And it follows reason that Chabad which has פרק לב of Tanya as core principle, cannot thank for wars (especially when the opponents are yidden).

Now for the Yekke....  ;)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline sam123

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Aug 2013
  • Posts: 82
  • Total likes: 0
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #823 on: December 25, 2016, 10:20:13 PM »
מענין לבנין, The אמרי אמת זצ"ל asks why we say ועל המלחמות and not על הניצחון, what's the good in the war itself?

So he says it's to show that ברוחניות the fighting itself with the רע is the goal and we doing a Yom Tov just for that, The wining is just a מתנה מן השמים.

Offline Freddie

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 3236
  • Total likes: 308
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Pittsburgh
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #824 on: December 25, 2016, 10:24:58 PM »
מענין לבנין, The אמרי אמת זצ"ל asks why we say ועל המלחמות and not על הניצחון, what's the good in the war itself?

So he says it's to show that ברוחניות the fighting itself with the רע is the goal and we doing a Yom Tov just for that, The wining is just a מתנה מן השמים.

And although as @exGingi said Chabad has a ch 32 of Tanya, I would say that your Imrei Emes fits well with ch 27 which is about the preciousness of the struggle against ra.

Offline thaber

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 3915
  • Total likes: 467
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #825 on: December 25, 2016, 10:31:02 PM »

[size=78%]עַל הַנִּסִּים[21][/size]
[size=78%]2   נוסח הספרדים: וְעַל הַפֻּרְקָן וְעַל הַגְּבוּרוֹת וְעַל הַתְּשׁוּעוֹת וְעַל הַנִּפְלָאוֹת וְעַל הַנֶּחָמוֹת[/size]
[size=78%]נוסח ספרד: וְעַל הַפֻּרְקָן וְעַל הַגְּבוּרוֹת וְעַל הַתְּשׁוּעוֹת וְעַל הַנִּפְלָאוֹת וְעַל הַנֶּחָמוֹת וְעַל הַמִּלְחָמוֹת[/size]
[size=78%]נוסח אשכנז: וְעַל הַפֻּרְקָן וְעַל הַגְּבוּרוֹת וְעַל הַתְּשׁוּעוֹת וְעַל הַמִּלְחָמוֹת[/size]
[size=78%]נוסח תימן בלדי: וְעַל הַגְּבוּרוֹת וְעַל הַמִּלְחָמוֹת וְעַל הַתְּשׁוּעוֹת וְעַל הַפְּדוּת וְעַל הַפֻּרְקָן[/size]
[size=78%]נוסח איטליה: וְעַל הַגְּבוּרוֹת וְעַל הַתְּשׁוּעוֹת וְעַל הַמִּלְחָמוֹת וְעַל הַפֻּרְקָן וְעַל הַפְּדוּת[/size]
[size=78%]3   נוסח אשכנז, נוסח ספרד ונוסח הספרדים: שֶׁעָשִׂיתָ לַאֲבוֹתֵינוּ[/size]
[size=78%]נוסח תימן ונוסח איטליה: שֶׁעָשִׂיתָ עִמָּנוּ וְעִם אֲבוֹתֵינוּ[/size]
[size=78%]4   בַּיָּמִים הָהֵם בַּזְּמַן הַזֶּה.[/size]



הודאה על המלחמות[עריכת קוד מקור | עריכה]ברוב הנוסחאות מופיע בסוף שורה 2 ועל המלחמות ([/color]נוסח ספרד ונוסח אשכנז), או ועל הנחמות (נוסח הספרדים) או ועל הפרקן (תכלאל ,נוסח איטליה). בסידור אדמו"ר הזקן, מופיע הנוסח שמופיע לפני זה באבודרהם וכן בסידור רבי יעקב עמדין. ועל הנפלאות.[/color][/font][/size]

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #826 on: December 25, 2016, 10:35:55 PM »
מענין לבנין, The אמרי אמת זצ"ל asks why we say ועל המלחמות and not על הניצחון, what's the good in the war itself?

So he says it's to show that ברוחניות the fighting itself with the רע is the goal and we doing a Yom Tov just for that, The wining is just a מתנה מן השמים.
Very interesting. Sounds along the lines that the Alter Rebbe says in Tanya chapter 27 ולכן אל יפול לב אדם עליו ולא ירע לבבו מאד גם אם יהיה כן כל ימיו במלחמה זו כי אולי לכך נברא וזאת עבודתו לאכפיא לס"א תמיד.

ETA:  Just saw that @Freddie was a little faster than I was in bringing this.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline thaber

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 3915
  • Total likes: 467
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #827 on: December 25, 2016, 10:39:23 PM »
speaking of grammar, I never read a comma in, it was more like a הודאה for the fact that Hashem took care of the milchamos for us. previous comment was cut and paste from wikipedia, and I looked in the Avudraham, indeed doesn't have the milchamos.


Below is from the Siddur of Rav Amram Gaon


And finally - a head on article which asks and answers the question posed http://www.oz-vehadar.com/en/articles/242

« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 10:46:39 PM by thaber »

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #828 on: December 25, 2016, 10:50:02 PM »
speaking of grammar, I never read a comma in, it was more like a הודאה for the fact that Hashem took care of the milchamos for us. previous comment was cut and paste from wikipedia, and I looked in the Avudraham, indeed doesn't have the milchamos.
I'm not sure how you read that as your post seems to be חסורי מחסרא, in any event, the Rebbe points out that the nusach of ועל הניסים of Chanuka refers to the victory over the Jewish מתיוונים hence (my comment) a positive reference to the war is out of place, as אבינו שבשמים doesn't have נחת רוח from this, however the outcome is positive. Something along the lines of יתמו חטאים (ולא חוטאים) מן הארץ.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline thaber

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 3915
  • Total likes: 467
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #829 on: December 25, 2016, 10:53:44 PM »
I'm not sure how you read that as your post seems to be חסורי מחסרא, in any event, the Rebbe points out that the nusach of ועל הניסים of Chanuka refers to the victory over the Jewish מתיוונים hence (my comment) a positive reference to the war is out of place, as אבינו שבשמים doesn't have נחת רוח from this, however the outcome is positive. Something along the lines of יתמו חטאים (ולא חוטאים) מן הארץ.
Understood, and hence Dan's question. But the Rebbe's analysis is in line with the Alter Rebbe's nusach. The pashtus would be the milchama is against the yivanim, and the thanks is for the win.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #830 on: December 25, 2016, 11:03:59 PM »
Understood, and hence Dan's question. But the Rebbe's analysis is in line with the Alter Rebbe's nusach. The pashtus would be the milchama is against the yivanim, and the thanks is for the win.

Did you read the sicha I linked to in this post? The analysis refers to טמאים ביד טהורים  רשעים ביד צדיקים וזדים ביד עוסקי תורתך. I don't think that is unique to the Alter Rebbe's nusach.

Are you phrasing your question wrong? We definitely thank G-d for the war in Al Hanissim, that is what the entire thing is about see also here

A little study of history seems to confirm this, almost like the Russian communists weren't so bad to Yiddishkeit if not for the Yevsektsya (which was comprised of Yidden), so to the Syrian Greeks didn't really care that much about what the Yiddishe spiritual life was all about, as long as taxes were paid, it was the מתיוונים that brought about the גזירות against yiddishkeit.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 11:07:41 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline thaber

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 3915
  • Total likes: 467
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #831 on: December 25, 2016, 11:34:18 PM »
Did you read the sicha I linked to in this post? The analysis refers to טמאים ביד טהורים  רשעים ביד צדיקים וזדים ביד עוסקי תורתך. I don't think that is unique to the Alter Rebbe's nusach.

A little study of history seems to confirm this, almost like the Russian communists weren't so bad to Yiddishkeit if not for the Yevsektsya (which was comprised of Yidden), so to the Syrian Greeks didn't really care that much about what the Yiddishe spiritual life was all about, as long as taxes were paid, it was the מתיוונים that brought about the גזירות against yiddishkeit.
I hadn't seen the link earlier, but just looked through it. Far be it from me to tell anyone how to learn up a sicha, but it seems clear to me that his chidush is that in addition to the war against the yivanim, there was a nitzachon over the misyavnim. but clearly the gezeiros were coming from the yevanim, he says that explicitly, and it's quite clear from the sicha that's who the war was with as well. What I was saying was that if we understand, as per the sicha, that there was a strong element of hodah for the nitachon over the misyavnim, who were on the side of the greeks, it makes sense that we don't specifically than Hashem for the war, because Jew vs Jew is never desirable.
However, if it was purely Jew vs Greek, as is the conventional and simple understanding in the world I grew up in, then there is an element of hodah for the actual war, because of strengthening of bitachon.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #832 on: December 27, 2016, 02:12:31 PM »
Now, bringing back this thread to the spirit of the OP, here's a real PRO (or Con depending on your perspective) of Chabad Minhagim:

אין "ליובאוויטש" איז געווען א פארקערטע נס חנוכה

מען האט געברענגט וואדקע פאר אכט טעג, אין ס'האט אויסגעברענט אין איין טאג.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #833 on: December 27, 2016, 02:14:20 PM »
We also have the advantage of getting different lyrics for common songs:

I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline mgarfin

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 2596
  • Total likes: 294
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #834 on: December 27, 2016, 07:15:12 PM »
LOL

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68895
  • Total likes: 17273
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #835 on: April 20, 2017, 04:10:12 PM »
Made the mistake of davening one Shacharis with the non-Chabad minyan.

My luck, find out that y'all do Shir HaShirim on Shabbos Chol HaMoed  >:( ;)
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #836 on: April 20, 2017, 04:23:09 PM »
Made the mistake of davening one Shacharis with the non-Chabad minyan.

My luck, find out that y'all do Shir HaShirim on Shabbos Chol HaMoed  >:( ;)
At least you know where שלמה המלך came up with all of those quotes. He's quoting באתי לגני!  ;)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18408
  • Total likes: 14582
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #837 on: April 20, 2017, 04:25:15 PM »
Made the mistake of davening one Shacharis with the non-Chabad minyan.

My luck, find out that y'all do Shir HaShirim on Shabbos Chol HaMoed  >:( ;)
It is more of a nusach sfard/ashkenaz thing.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline chbochur

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 821
  • Total likes: 124
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #838 on: April 20, 2017, 04:28:24 PM »
Made the mistake of davening one Shacharis with the non-Chabad minyan.

My luck, find out that y'all do Shir HaShirim on Shabbos Chol HaMoed  >:( ;)
I know someone that it worked out for his benefit, had more then enough time to catch up:)

Offline CS1

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 3726
  • Total likes: 49
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
    • California Gourmet Premium Chocolate
  • Location: United States
  • Programs: DDSLA, DDSCLE, Bonvoy Titanium Feb 2025
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #839 on: April 20, 2017, 04:30:02 PM »
Made the mistake of davening one Shacharis with the non-Chabad minyan.

My luck, find out that y'all do Shir HaShirim on Shabbos Chol HaMoed  >:( ;)

shaare tefila in LA has the shabbos chol hamoed Shir Hashirim lained by a Chabad rabbi each year. (main shul - ashkenaz.)
California Gourmet Belgian Nut-Free Chocolate Chips https://bit.ly/CaliforniaGourmetDirect