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« Last edited by jj1000 on April 20, 2017, 04:27:32 PM »

Author Topic: Shlichus Addiction?  (Read 89873 times)

Offline sky121

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #300 on: June 28, 2017, 09:57:18 AM »
Doesn't an 'ehrliche yid' know how to gain from learning about the world?  Can't you be your best self when you have the words to explain ideas? When you have the language to speak? Isn't math an important aspect of Yiddeshkeit? Science as well? History? All these things make you a smarter individual as a whole. They also help you use different parts of your brain which also help you grow in every aspect including learning Torah.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline Dan

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #301 on: June 28, 2017, 10:00:44 AM »
Your conclusion from that story could just as easily be that if only he sent his kid to PIT where he would've seen you can learn English, maths, etc and be an erirliche yid, he'd still be frum...
That was my take from the story. I know plenty of guys who went to schools without L"C and were angry that they never had a background in L"C or were taught that it was evil and a contradiction to what they should be doing and are now OTD, R"L.

If only they were truly taught that there is good to be found in all klipas noga, perhaps they would still be frum?
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Offline sky121

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #302 on: June 28, 2017, 10:02:10 AM »
That was my take from the story. I know plenty of guys who went to schools without L"C and were angry that they never had a background in L"C or were taught that it was evil and are now OTD, R"L.
I notice it a lot when they are married with a few kids and have no skills or means to support themselves. Many are very resentful.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #303 on: June 28, 2017, 10:04:43 AM »
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-27/want-a-1-million-paycheck-skip-college-and-go-work-in-a-lumberyard

So does one need English studies for good income?
And nearly every kid from my brother's class in PIT for example went back to PIT for bochur shlichus and are now DRs in residency. I'm quite sure they're happy doing that over being a lumberjack.
IY"H they will save many lives and contribute to important causes.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #304 on: June 28, 2017, 10:12:28 AM »
And nearly every kid from my brother's class in PIT for example went back to PIT for bochur shlichus and are now DRs in residency. I'm quite sure they're happy doing that over being a lumberjack.
IY"H they will save many lives and contribute to important causes.
Nothing wrong with being a lumberjack :)
Or a plumber, welder, builder etc. Not everyone is meant to be a doctor.   But those require skills as well.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #305 on: June 28, 2017, 10:19:30 AM »
Nothing wrong with being a lumberjack :)
Or a plumber, welder, builder etc. Not everyone is meant to be a doctor.   But those require skills as well.
Nothing at all.

I know someone who didn't have L"C, is 32 years old and is training to be a plumber now.
But he lacks skills that are required just to properly study and pass an exam. I think tests in many of the schools without L"C are just thought of as a joke...

Listen, my brother went on shlichus to Kauai for several months, but local politics got in the way. I'm sure he's happy with how things wound up with hashgacha protis.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 10:36:16 AM by jj1000 »
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #306 on: June 28, 2017, 10:27:39 AM »
That was my take from the story. I know plenty of guys who went to schools without L"C and were angry that they never had a background in L"C or were taught that it was evil and a contradiction to what they should be doing and are now OTD, R"L.
You are mixing up two things. In the story I brought, the lack of L"C was definitely not a trigger.

I have a hunch that @AsherO does know who this guy is, and I think he would agree with me. The resentment, OTD, etc. are definitely not for lack of L"C, and I say that with 100% certainty. People might cite (or sight, as many who got a high-school diploma might spell it ;)) that as a reason, but it's just an excuse - see the current conversation in the Kids Texting on Shabbos thread. I am surprised that an MBA would give credence to a claim that correlation proves causation.

Quote
If only they were truly taught that there is good to be found in all klipas noga, perhaps they would still be frum?
Everything has its right time and place. When your kids get to a certain maturity, you will talk to them about some topics, that you wouldn't and shouldn't talk to them about at this time, in order to protect them and make sure they learn certain things FROM YOU (or from a source you trust) rather than find things out or learn them in a way that you have no control over. The good which exists in Klipas Nogah is there in order to be nisbarrer, not in order to stay there or be used in a way that isn't mevarrer. To indiscriminately subject teenagers to a L"C curriculum, whether they need it or not, doesn't do good for them. Those are formative years, and chinuch needs to be done with a mindfulness of that, and an emphasis on what really matters.

All of the above notwithstanding, I don't think that the term Chinuch Al Taharas Hakoidesh means no English or Math! I absolutely do think that kids should have proper language skills (and if they have an appreciation for that in one language, that will translate automatically to other languages), and basic math skills (which is definitely a part of Torah - my SIL actually created a Torah curriculum through sixth grade that gives math skills, to the extent that upon completion a child can actually create his own Jewish calendar).
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 10:30:48 AM by ExGingi »
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #307 on: June 28, 2017, 10:33:02 AM »
One thing to add is that the difference between PIT and OT (for example) isn't just whether they teach L"C.  PIT produces menchen, while OT often produces OTniks for better and unfortunately for worse...
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #308 on: June 28, 2017, 10:38:46 AM »
I am surprised that an MBA would give credence to a claim that correlation proves causation.
To be clear you made a conclusion based purely on correlation and I gave a just as likely alternate conclusion based on your logic.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #309 on: June 28, 2017, 10:41:32 AM »
The lack of L"C was definitely not a trigger.

Was probably the parents fault.






Because they didn't send him to PIT :P
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Offline thaber

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #310 on: June 28, 2017, 10:42:01 AM »
I'm going back and forth between this thread and the fbi arrest one. Talk about causation!

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #311 on: June 28, 2017, 10:50:35 AM »
One thing to add is that the difference between PIT and OT (for example) isn't just whether they teach L"C.  PIT produces menchen, while OT often produces OTniks for better and unfortunately for worse...
I believe Rabbi Rosenblum is an excellent mechanech.
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #312 on: June 28, 2017, 10:52:04 AM »
To be clear you made a conclusion based purely on correlation and I gave a just as likely alternate conclusion based on your logic.
What was my conclusion? That a kid got into MIT without getting L"C? Was I implying causation?
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #313 on: June 28, 2017, 11:00:25 AM »
Was probably the parents fault.






Because they didn't send him to PIT :P
Does PIT teach color usage? White on light grey is an excellent way to convey a message in a clear (pun intended) way. :P 

To put the record straight, I am not talking at all about fault or causation. On the contrary, I am arguing AGAINST looking at causation and outcomes. What I am arguing is that one SHOULD'T base chinuch based on concern for the future, but rather on what's best and right in the present. And I have yet to hear one argument (or quote from the Rebbe) that a L"C curriculum is justified לכתחילה for teenagers or younger.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #314 on: June 28, 2017, 11:20:27 AM »
Does PIT teach color usage? White on light grey is an excellent way to convey a message in a clear (pun intended) way. :P 

To put the record straight, I am not talking at all about fault or causation. On the contrary, I am arguing AGAINST looking at causation and outcomes. What I am arguing is that one SHOULD'T base chinuch based on concern for the future, but rather on what's best and right in the present. And I have yet to hear one argument (or quote from the Rebbe) that a L"C curriculum is justified לכתחילה for teenagers or younger.
@aygart Can you explain the logical fallacy for me?

In short you said a conclusion based on one case and say that's the rule. And you don't know how different that one case would be if he was in PIT etc...
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #315 on: June 28, 2017, 11:28:19 AM »
@aygart Can you explain the logical fallacy for me?

In short you said a conclusion based on one case and say that's the rule. And you don't know how different that one case would be if he was in PIT etc...
Hey, you went to PIT (and some college, IINM) shouldn't you be able to explain things to this person who doesn't even have a high school diploma?
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #316 on: June 28, 2017, 11:33:06 AM »
Hey, you went to PIT (and some college, IINM) shouldn't you be able to explain things to this person who doesn't even have a high school diploma?
Another fallacy, assuming someone that has an education can explain things.

@aygart has a specialty in explaining logical fallacies. I think he rather enjoys it  ;)
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #317 on: June 28, 2017, 11:38:30 AM »
Another fallacy, assuming someone that has an education can explain things.
Hey, how should I know that? I don't even have a high school diploma. ;)

Quote
@aygart has a specialty in explaining logical fallacies. I think he rather enjoys it  ;)
Except when they are his own.  ;)
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #318 on: June 28, 2017, 11:56:02 AM »
@aygart Can you explain the logical fallacy for me?

In short you said a conclusion based on one case and say that's the rule. And you don't know how different that one case would be if he was in PIT etc...
Sorry, I am not going to get involved in this one other than  hit and run I will post below.
Another fallacy, assuming someone that has an education can explain things.

@aygart has a specialty in explaining logical fallacies. I think he rather enjoys it  ;)
I most definitely do

Except when they are his own.  ;)
You have no idea how many things I have corrected due to seeing my own fallacious logic.

I, of course, suffer from cognitive dissonance like everyone else in the world. How would you know when disagreeing with me whether it is you or I (or both) who is affected by it in that case?
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #319 on: June 28, 2017, 12:04:32 PM »
One thing many who do not have a LC education are missing (some with an education as well) is basic language skills. Many of them are simply unable to express themselve better than a mumble jumble of vague pronouns. I have seen some very bright people unable to ask simple questions without needing to explain themselves 4-5 times. I come across this issue not only with business and practicle questions but also when people ask halachic shaylos and I have a very difficult time giving them an accurate psak. I need to pry the real question out from them. The same happens when they are learning with a chavrusa.

This has nothing to do with the English language, but with any language. Someone who can express themselves in yiddish can them adapt to english. It does not make a difference which language it is. Teach english, teach yiddish, teach ivrit, teach lashon kodesh, teach aramaic. Something.
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