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ExGingi: Good morning Dan, how's you day going?

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ExGingi: Wrong. Bh you woke up, thanks to Hashem as explained in modeh ani and even more in depth in inyanei shel toras hachasidus. If you would understand that sicha properly you would know that one doesn't simply wake up, it's not us who wake up, but rather thanks to the brachas of the rebbe and Hashem's help we wake up.
« Last edited by jj1000 on April 20, 2017, 04:27:32 PM »

Author Topic: Shlichus Addiction?  (Read 19322 times)

Offline Yungerman

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2014, 02:27:15 AM »
Learning 9 hours and having 3 hours for english for 3 years isn't going to be the end of the world.  Especially if you're able to have more career options than relying on fickle real estate and other freelance jobs.

And there's zal afterward for 3 more years where you can learn (or waste away as many guys do) 14 hours a day.

If you really look at a standard mesivta/zal seder, those hours are way off.

Just real estate and software engineering alone are vast oceans of opportunity.

The Rebbe's stance had NOTHING to do whether or not the bulk of Lubavitch bochurim were going out on shlichus or not.

Offline Yungerman

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2014, 02:30:46 AM »
-1
the Rebbe set up several schools specifically for Chabad and non-Chabad students to attend
as a place for ALL students to learn and to learn Chassidus, Tanya, Gemara, along with both Limudei Kodesh and Chol (with proper perspectives).

The Rebbe specifically planned this and consulted with certain schools along the way.

Students can be encouraged to attend Chicago, Toronto, and NY to learn only Kodesh,
however, Florida, Pittsburgh, and Los Angeles, I believe offer both (with the Rebbe's approval).

The only reason the Frierdiker Rebbe and the Rebbe approved of such schools was to draw students from homes where Limudei Chol was nonnegotiable. 

Offline CS1

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2014, 02:34:38 AM »
The only reason the Frierdiker Rebbe and the Rebbe approved of such schools was to draw students from homes where Limudei Chol was nonnegotiable.
The only reason???
In addition to the local students, the Rebbe also felt that it was important for the Chabad students, as well..
(at least until a certain age -- after that, you ask your Mashpia.
However, it was encouraged for many students from Chabad families, too, when these school were established and for the decades afterwards... 
Both in the boys dept. and the girls dept.)
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Offline Yungerman

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2014, 02:44:31 AM »
The only reason???
In addition to the local students, the Rebbe also felt that it was important for the Chabad students, as well..
(at least until a certain age -- after that, you ask your Mashpia.
However, it was encouraged for many students from Chabad families, too, when these school were established and for the decades afterwards... 
Both in the boys dept. and the girls dept.)

Please provide sources. Regarding 'until a certain age', from Simchas Torah 5715 it's clear that if it's introduced, it's from a certain age, not earlier than 9, if possible 12, and preferably not at all. Oholei Torah was born shortly thereafter. So a Mashpia would have to be asked not 'after that', rather 'before that'.

I understand there were exceptions and people got rare answers from the Rebbe to continue or pursue various secular studies. However, the Rebbe's Shitoh is clear that for most boys it should be avoided during their time in cheder/yeshiva, in which they should be totally immersed in Torah and Avodas haTefila.

Offline CS1

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2014, 03:11:28 AM »
Please provide sources. Regarding 'until a certain age', from Simchas Torah 5715 it's clear that if it's introduced, it's from a certain age, not earlier than 9, if possible 12, and preferably not at all. Oholei Torah was born shortly thereafter. So a Mashpia would have to be asked not 'after that', rather 'before that'.

I understand there were exceptions and people got rare answers from the Rebbe to continue or pursue various secular studies. However, the Rebbe's Shitoh is clear that for most boys it should be avoided during their time in cheder/yeshiva, in which they should be totally immersed in Torah and Avodas haTefila.
I believe that the Rebbe would give different answers to different people.
Just as different schools were set up in different ways. There were a few bochurim who received a brocha
to go to medical school or law school whilst the majority dwelled in Limudie Kodesh throughout their 25+ years.
Some would continue, and/or go on Shlichus, and a few (rare) others would receive a brocha to attend schooling after marriage.

Otherwise, the definition of success is not in our careers,
it's who, how, and what we elevate when we are there. Whether in a Yeshiva, a Mesivta, in an ER, an OR, or in a courtroom..

Which brings me to the next topic -- the above "title"...
We are all shluchim in all aspects of our lives -- and that's even more apparent in today's day and age --
so, it's not an addiction (maybe an obsession? Daily way to live our life to bring Moshiach?) and it's not exclusive. It's everyone.
It's in every area of land, time, location, flight, vacation, etc...

(speaking of being "Jewish" on vacation - we had a funny St. Thomas response during an outing ---
The native island kids see someone in December with a beard - of any color - and they shout out, "Santa Claus!")    ::)
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Offline avremie

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2014, 11:32:07 AM »
Do you know anyone that the rebbe told to go to university or only after they asked some were allowed to go. how can I decide if I'm an exception?
(only Some people who were already there were told to continue).

Offline Ergel

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2014, 12:13:15 PM »
I have no idea, but I would get the answer from somewhere other than DDF
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline robbie

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2014, 12:47:42 PM »
Do you know anyone that the rebbe told to go to university or only after they asked some were allowed to go. how can I decide if I'm an exception?
(only Some people who were already there were told to continue).
the rebbe told dr. yaacov hanoka to stay in university, google him for details.

Offline Vosizderneias

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2014, 01:03:09 PM »
there has to be new rule for this thread; gimmel tammuz sucks, however, if everyone goes around misquoting and distorting the holy words of the Rebbe- itll suck even more.
the Hanoka story is great. but, what the rebbe said to one person doesnt have to apply to the next! do you think the rebbe would say that to any bochur, or to someone that was already three quarters through med school...

Offline robbie

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2014, 01:07:50 PM »
there has to be new rule for this thread; gimmel tammuz sucks, however, if everyone goes around misquoting and distorting the holy words of the Rebbe- itll suck even more.
the Hanoka story is great. but, what the rebbe said to one person doesnt have to apply to the next! do you think the rebbe would say that to any bochur, or to someone that was already three quarters through med school...
I did not want to get involved in this conversation at all, I simply answered the question avremie asked. good luck people :)

Offline Dan

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2014, 01:34:45 PM »
If you really look at a standard mesivta/zal seder, those hours are way off.

Just real estate and software engineering alone are vast oceans of opportunity.

The Rebbe's stance had NOTHING to do whether or not the bulk of Lubavitch bochurim were going out on shlichus or not.
It PIT our day was 7:30-9 with 160 minutes of secular studies.
In LA zal it was 7:30-10.
Sure there are some breaks, but still.

And real estate, really?  80% of them are broke or barely scraping by and only the top few make a good living.
Software engineering for everyone else without any prep for that?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2014, 01:35:51 PM »
The only reason the Frierdiker Rebbe and the Rebbe approved of such schools was to draw students from homes where Limudei Chol was nonnegotiable. 
Pass the good stuff please.
LA was set up with limudei chol with the Rebbe's brochos in the 70s.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline avremie

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2014, 01:37:27 PM »
the rebbe told dr. yaacov hanoka to stay in university, google him for details.
was he in college from before? I never hears of any ffb who was in yeshiva full time that was told to go

Offline Dan

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2014, 01:41:15 PM »
Do you know anyone that the rebbe told to go to university or only after they asked some were allowed to go. how can I decide if I'm an exception?
(only Some people who were already there were told to continue).
There were definitely people told to go and many told not to.
I'm sure you are aware that there are several methods of writing a question, even post gimmel tamuz.

To say point blank that the Rebbe was against all secular education is a farce.  It's no secret that the Rebbe himself was sorbonne educated and was knowledgable in all aspects of worldly matters.  Many have letters from the Rebbe that they should find their life's mission via secular studies.

Is that guidance to the masses? Is everyone up to that task? Perhaps not.

The key is not putting yourself in a compromising situation.  I went through the full Chabad system (3 years mesivta, 3 years zal, 1 year shlichus, 1 year smicha) and got a high school diploma from PIT and a BA from the rosh.  After that I got an MBA but I specifically did from a local college where I'd be able to go back to my parent's home every night.

To put yourself in an immersive situation like going away from home to a college is asking for trouble IMHO.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Yungerman

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2014, 03:57:31 PM »
It PIT our day was 7:30-9 with 160 minutes of secular studies.
In LA zal it was 7:30-10.
Sure there are some breaks, but still.

And real estate, really?  80% of them are broke or barely scraping by and only the top few make a good living.
Software engineering for everyone else without any prep for that?

Actual learning time in most mesivtas doesn't exceed 7-7.5 hours. Removing 3 hours from that and replacing it with limudei chol is stealing from their lives(to paraphrase the Rebbe regarding elementary kids{http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=4584&st=&pgnum=75}).

Zal learning time is 9-10 hours.

Your allegations about those working in RE are backed up? I would like to see sources. Programming: A few months of tutorials and textbooks can land a 35/h job. That figure jumps through experience.


Pass the good stuff please.
LA was set up with limudei chol with the Rebbe's brochos in the 70s.

Dan, that's barely a refutation. All I'm saying was that it was with the Rebbe's approval for the sake of not alienating kids with parents with nonnegotiable English preferences. Countless children were brought under the winds of the Shechina and raised frum families due to the option of English.

There were definitely people told to go and many told not to.
I'm sure you are aware that there are several methods of writing a question, even post gimmel tamuz.

To say point blank that the Rebbe was against all secular education is a farce.  It's no secret that the Rebbe himself was sorbonne educated and was knowledgable in all aspects of worldly matters.  Many have letters from the Rebbe that they should find their life's mission via secular studies.

Is that guidance to the masses? Is everyone up to that task? Perhaps not.


Dan, you make it sound as if there was a 1:1 ratio of approvals and disapprovals by the Rebbe regarding College. There were double-digit approvals with 5-digit disapprovals. All of the approvals NEVER involved a ffb bochur asking the Rebbe for permission to learn regularly secular subjects in mesivta or zal. It was either a baal teshuva who started with the Rebbe encouraging him to continue or a married yungerman whom the Rebbe encouraged to go to college(I happen to know a very ehrliche, yerei shomayim and lomdish Lubavitcher living in Boro Park whom the Rebbe encouraged to be a doctor after his wedding. He later on was part of the team of doctors caring for the Rebbe in '92-94. He's currently a head of department in Maimonides in NY.). There was never a general guidance to pursue secular education. On the contrary. Let's not take rare exceptions that didn't even apply to bochurim in yeshiva and make out of it the rule. It's similar to stating that Rabbi so-and-so condones abortions because in a few cases of rape/situations in which a fatal risk was posed to the mother he allowed the procedure.

The Rebbe already answered those who asked regarding his own education in Sorbonne and Berlin and its contradiction to the Rebbe's popular rejection of secular studies. The answers were usually "First learn Shas, Poskim, Rishonim, and Acharonim and then we'll talk" and "Just because I jumped off a bridge/cliff doesn't mean you should".