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« Last edited by jj1000 on April 20, 2017, 04:27:32 PM »

Author Topic: Shlichus Addiction?  (Read 17474 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2014, 04:01:23 PM »
Your allegations about those working in RE are backed up? I would like to see sources.

Dan, that's barely a refutation. All I'm saying was that it was with the Rebbe's approval for the sake of not alienating kids with parents with nonnegotiable English preferences.
1. Read it in the WSJ a short while ago. Feel free to search.
2. Source?
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Offline menachem_m

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2014, 04:29:29 PM »
Do you know anyone that the rebbe told to go to university or only after they asked some were allowed to go. how can I decide if I'm an exception?
(only Some people who were already there were told to continue).
The Rebbe in the will he delivered publicly after מײח, was pretty clear that after ג' תמוז, you are supposed to ask 3 chassidisher Rabbonim.

People running around quoting a הוראה פרטית the Rebbe gave to someone and trying to apply it to the masses/themselves is pretty silly IMHO, and you are just fooling yourself/trying to justify yourself.

Offline Yungerman

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2014, 04:38:17 PM »
People running around quoting a הוראה פרטית the Rebbe gave to someone and trying to apply it to the masses/themselves is pretty silly IMHO, and you are just fooling yourself/trying to justify yourself.

+100

Offline menachem_m

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2014, 04:38:22 PM »
Pass the good stuff please.
LA was set up with limudei chol with the Rebbe's brochos in the 70s.
Happen to agree with you about limudei chol, but IMHO bringing a ראיה from a brocho is pretty lame. I can't say for sure, but I can imagine the Rebbe blessed alot of shidduchim, which ended up divorcing.

Passive≠Active.

Someone coming to the Rebbe informing him of a project and the Rebbe saying "הצלחה" can obviously not be compared to the Rebbe going out and actively promoting/endorsing a concept.

Offline Drago

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Re: Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2014, 04:14:17 AM »
Because in case you didn't realize there ain't no more shlichus spots open.

On a side note, how are shlichus divvied up? Is there a central org that does placements?
How do they decide whether to send an Israeli or American?
Do turf battles ever break out?

Offline Drago

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2014, 04:29:33 AM »
Maybe this is beyond the scope of this thread, but what did Chazal (meaning Rabbanim who lived many many years b/f the Rebbe) say about learning secular topics to help with having a parnassa? Shouldn't their opinion (yay or nay) enter into this conversation at some point, or did the Rebbe's psak's eclipse e/t else?

How about prior Rebbe's? Did they voice an opinion on this matter?

Offline Dan

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2014, 11:19:43 AM »
The Rebbe didn't issue a "psak" and none of this is as clear cut as anyone would have you believe.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2014, 11:29:17 AM »
That works both ways.

Offline Dan

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2014, 11:34:23 AM »
That works both ways.
No argument.
And that's exactly why we have mesivtas both ways.

My beef is that Chabad mont penimous. 
When you're doing something, be focused and give it all you got.
And if we're going to expend time and energy to learn secular studies it shouldn't be with teachers that can't teach and are willing to work for slave wages, it should be done right.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline htg123

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2014, 12:37:03 PM »
The rebbe gave Brochos both ways. Its pretty clear the rebbe still favored against limudei chol. One could argue that the rebbe would give different instructions these days because of the Shlichus situation... But there's nobody who we will respect to make such radical change

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2014, 02:30:43 PM »
The rebbe gave Brochos both ways. Its pretty clear the rebbe still favored against limudei chol. One could argue that the rebbe would give different instructions these days because of the Shlichus situation... But there's nobody who we will respect to make such radical change

What's radical change? No one is saying that every Lubavitch yeshiva should have mandatory secular studies. It would just be nice if we could try not to stigmatize a yeshiva (and its students) which does provide a secular education.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2014, 02:34:22 PM »
What's radical change? No one is saying that every Lubavitch yeshiva should have mandatory secular studies. It would just be nice if we could try not to stigmatize a yeshiva (and its students) which does provide a secular education.
+1
This ^  ^
And, When done for the authentic purpose of L'Shem Shomayim, to make a Kiddush Hashem B'Chol D'rochechah, and to elevate the world for Moshiach,
then also
+1, That  v   v   
No argument.
And that's exactly why we have mesivtas both ways.

My beef is that Chabad mont penimous. 
When you're doing something, be focused and give it all you got.
And if we're going to expend time and energy to learn secular studies it shouldn't be with teachers that can't teach and are willing to work for slave wages,
it should be done right.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2014, 02:44:03 PM »
The Rebbe in the will he delivered publicly after מײח, was pretty clear that after ג' תמוז, you are supposed to ask 3 chassidisher Rabbonim.

People running around quoting a הוראה פרטית the Rebbe gave to someone and trying to apply it to the masses/themselves is pretty silly IMHO, and you are just fooling yourself/trying to justify yourself.
thank you

Offline Yungerman

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2014, 10:24:48 PM »
1. Read it in the WSJ a short while ago. Feel free to search.
2. Source?

1. Couldn't find it. In major cities, real estate produces a good living.
2. Although I wasn't able to contact the Rosh, one of my friends just told me that he heard from him that the Rebbe
approved the English program in LA to attract kids that otherwise wouldn't go to Yeshiva. Which echoes the Rebbe's
sicha in 12 Tammuz 5717, in which the Rebbe stresses that it was only in order to save kids that schools were allowed
to have limudei chol and that it's ridiculous to draw conclusions for other places. The Rebbe likens it to telling a healthy person
to take medicine. http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=25052&st=&pgnum=145

Here(http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14934&st=&pgnum=160), the Rebbe gives a clear ho'roah to teach
kids strictly al taharas hakodesh without mixing in any limudei chol. I previously mentioned Simchas Torah 5715(http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=4584&st=&pgnum=74). In
it the Rebbe states his unambiguous position that limudei chol is metamei the brain of a child and should be avoided as much as possible. In Purim 5722(http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=4589&st=&pgnum=359), the Rebbe ridicules limudei chol as well.

I spoke tonight with R' Leibel Groner(a decades-long personal secretary of the Rebbe), who told me that the only exception to the Rebbe's fierce opposition to limudei chol was when he answered college students who became frum and were finishing their degree.. He relayed to me that when parents were pressuring R' Michoel Teitelbaum to include basic mathematics in the Oholei Torah curriculim, he wrote to the Rebbe. The Rebbe answered him "b'shum oifen nisht"(not under any circumstances).

Again, the Rebbe's ho'roah lerabim during all public addresses and 99.99 of letters was to shun limudei chol. There were rare exceptions. The Rebbe publicly appealed in 12 Tammuz 5717(mentioned above) not to extrapolate to other cases/situations.

Maybe this is beyond the scope of this thread, but what did Chazal (meaning Rabbanim who lived many many years b/f the Rebbe) say about learning secular topics to help with having a parnassa? Shouldn't their opinion (yay or nay) enter into this conversation at some point, or did the Rebbe's psak's eclipse e/t else?

How about prior Rebbe's? Did they voice an opinion on this matter?
The chiyuv to teach ones son a trade (learned by many Rishonim and Acharonim[including the Alter Rebbe{Ba'al haTanya}]) is after one teaches(or sends to melamed/yeshiva) him Torah. The Rebbeim of Chabad, along with most old-school Gedolei Yisroel during the past several generations, took that approach. The Rebbe wasn't against learning a trade after a bochur's formal yeshiva years, rather during them.

The Rebbe didn't issue a "psak" and none of this is as clear cut as anyone would have you believe.

If "psak" is synonymous with "ho'roah" in Chabad vernacular, then yes, the Rebbe did issue a psak(the Alter Rebbe already did in Hilchos Talmud Torah{which the Rebbe quoted regarding this}) to avoid limudei chol as much as possible. Countless sichos, letters, and yechidusen point to that. Just like the Rebbe 'paskened' not to drink more than 4 l'chaims equaling a revi'is, notwithstanding the famous exception in the Deutch's Sukkah or to native Russians.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 10:58:28 PM by Yungerman »

Offline CS1

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #74 on: February 24, 2014, 01:00:47 AM »
briefly, the definition of "limudei chol" is not lined up here.

1) It's quite possible to say that K-12 is not what the Rebbe was referring to in referencing Limudei Chol overall, but rather the secular classes post-high school.

2) The classes of "general studies" themselves may actually not be limdei chol:
       While perhaps Shakespeare is LC, most likely the maths, the sciences, spelling, and the Jewish histories are not LC.
     
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