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Author Topic: Shlichus Addiction?  (Read 15437 times)

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2014, 01:24:55 AM »
briefly, the definition of "limudei chol" is not lined up here.

1) It's quite possible to say that K-12 is not what the Rebbe was referring to in referencing Limudei Chol overall, but rather the secular classes post-high school.

2) The classes of "general studies" themselves may actually not be limdei chol:
       While perhaps Shakespeare is LC, most likely the maths, the sciences, spelling, and the Jewish histories are not LC.
     
:o

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2014, 01:30:37 AM »
Amazing how the Rebbe was so dead-set against english and yet countless mesivtas with english across the globe sprouted up during his leadership.
One sentence and they'd all have folded.
If there needed to be one for "those people", fine.
But multiples...

Equally amazing is that in zal the guys that learned in O.T. all day long were no more advanced in Judaic studies than the people from schools with secular studies.  They were great bullshovers though.
Better to learn limudei chol l'toeles than to battul away your time, no?




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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2014, 01:31:44 AM »
..." The meeting was scheduled for 11 PM. Prof. Rosenbloom realized that the Rebbe would be seeing many people before and after him. Feeling that the area in which he shared the greatest common interest with the Rebbe was chinuch (education), and to save the Rebbe time, he wrote some of his ideas down and gave them to one of the Rebbe's secretaries.

When he gave him the note, Prof. Rosenbloom told the secretary the general thrust of his thinking: that the programs of limudei kodesh (Torah studies) and limudei chol (secular studies) in Jewish day schools should be integrated.

The secretary reacted with shock. "There must be," he told the professor, "a distinction between the holy and the mundane! A child must know what is sacred and what is not."

When speaking to the Rebbe, however, Prof. Rosenbloom received a different picture. "Children should be taught to appreciate that everything is connected with the Torah," the Rebbe told him. "When they perform an experiment in a science lab, they should know that it is G-d's creative power that is causing the chemical reactions they observe.

"There are some," the Rebbe continued, "who have two sets of bookshelves, one for seforim [sacred texts] and another for secular books. That is the wrong approach. If a person thinks of secular wisdom as being unrelated to the Torah, he does not understand the Torah, nor does he truly understand the secular subject he is studying."...
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2014, 01:47:43 AM »
Equally amazing is that in zal the guys that learned in O.T. all day long were no more advanced in Judaic studies than the people from schools with secular studies.
I would have to disagree there, IME that was certainly not the case.

They were great bullshovers though.
Better to learn limudei chol l'toeles than to battul away your time, no?
One may argue that the guys who spent their time in seder bullshoving would likely put even less energy into limodei chol.




Either way, I think this is really all a side point. I disagree with your main premise that a proper education equals and is necessary for a decent parnossah.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2014, 01:59:17 AM »
Never said that it's necessary to have an education and a degree to make money.
There will always be exceptions to the rule.

But the vast majority of jobs require a degree, that's a fact.
And the highest paying jobs, like doctors, require a lot more than just a degree in hebrew letters.

Now you don't need to make $400K to have a good life, but the yeshivas would sure love to have your children.
But just look at the number of unemployed men in CH who don't know in which direction to turn.
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Offline Yungerman

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2014, 02:35:34 AM »
briefly, the definition of "limudei chol" is not lined up here.

1) It's quite possible to say that K-12 is not what the Rebbe was referring to in referencing Limudei Chol overall, but rather the secular classes post-high school.

2) The classes of "general studies" themselves may actually not be limdei chol:
       While perhaps Shakespeare is LC, most likely the maths, the sciences, spelling, and the Jewish histories are not LC.
     

1) Did you look up the Sichos I sourced, especially Simchas Torah 5715?

2) In the above-mentioned Sicha the Rebbe mentions grammar. The Rebbe's answer to R' Michoel Teitelbaum that I mentioned earlier was regarding math.
Amazing how the Rebbe was so dead-set against english and yet countless mesivtas with english across the globe sprouted up during his leadership.
One sentence and they'd all have folded.
If there needed to be one for "those people", fine.
But multiples...

Equally amazing is that in zal the guys that learned in O.T. all day long were no more advanced in Judaic studies than the people from schools with secular studies.  They were great bullshovers though.
Better to learn limudei chol l'toeles than to battul away your time, no?
Countless mesivtas? Maybe countless of "those people" getting a Yeshiva education they otherwise wouldn't have. Even then, English was always non-mandatory.

I happen to share whYME's experience. Chicago/Toronto/Staten Island/O.T. mesivta bochurim are on average more advanced in Nigleh/Chassidus/Hanhoga when entering zal than their PIT/MIA/LA counterparts who decided(or parents did) to take English. I don't mean to chv's bash any individual who went through those mesivtas. Just observing the average.

Bullshoving is a common symptom of laziness plaguing every type of bochur, not only the al-taharas-hakodesh-educated. 

Regarding bittul zman vs. limudei chol, the Rebbe answered Rav Hendel of Montreal that the latter is worse due to its faculty of being metamei children's brains. Although I must say, that for someone who's anyway at the stage of learning a trade, that would be different.

..." The meeting was scheduled for 11 PM. Prof. Rosenbloom realized that the Rebbe would be seeing many people before and after him. Feeling that the area in which he shared the greatest common interest with the Rebbe was chinuch (education), and to save the Rebbe time, he wrote some of his ideas down and gave them to one of the Rebbe's secretaries.

When he gave him the note, Prof. Rosenbloom told the secretary the general thrust of his thinking: that the programs of limudei kodesh (Torah studies) and limudei chol (secular studies) in Jewish day schools should be integrated.

The secretary reacted with shock. "There must be," he told the professor, "a distinction between the holy and the mundane! A child must know what is sacred and what is not."

When speaking to the Rebbe, however, Prof. Rosenbloom received a different picture. "Children should be taught to appreciate that everything is connected with the Torah," the Rebbe told him. "When they perform an experiment in a science lab, they should know that it is G-d's creative power that is causing the chemical reactions they observe.

"There are some," the Rebbe continued, "who have two sets of bookshelves, one for seforim [sacred texts] and another for secular books. That is the wrong approach. If a person thinks of secular wisdom as being unrelated to the Torah, he does not understand the Torah, nor does he truly understand the secular subject he is studying."...

Once limudei chol is already there, it might as well be utilized for as holy a purpose as possible. It doesn't contradict the optimal scenario. Similarly, the Rebbe was displeased that cheder/yeshiva doesn't run the whole year and wrote that if it was in his power, he would nullify summer vacation. However, once kids are off from yeshiva, they might as well be enrolled in a camp being run al-taharas-hakodesh. The Rebbe even pointed out certain advantages in camp over yeshiva, such as no limudei chol(for those that have it due to federal requirements etc). The Rebbe took every situation, even the non-optimal ones, and attempted to make the best out of it.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 03:08:42 AM by Yungerman »

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #81 on: February 24, 2014, 02:48:44 AM »
Never said that it's necessary to have an education and a degree to make money.
There will always be exceptions to the rule.
I'm saying the rule is wrong, not just that there are exceptions.

But the vast majority of jobs require a degree, that's a fact.
And the highest paying jobs, like doctors, require a lot more than just a degree in hebrew letters.
Believe it or not, you can actually become a doctor after going through O.T. Granted, there will be extra work in the beginning, but for someone motivated it's entirely doable.

But just look at the number of unemployed men in CH who don't know in which direction to turn.
I'm thinking about this, and I can only think of one guy who I would call unemployed, and I'm sure he'd be just as unemployed if his high school had limudei chol. Maybe I'm just hanging out in the wrong parts of CH but I just don't see these hordes of unemployed men.
In fact, those I know who are making the most money had no formal education at all.


Growing up I quickly realized that all the "rich" kids were from those whose fathers went to OT, none of the  BT parents with their  college degrees were raking it in. Ever since then I haven't been a believer in the whole "college is the answer" thing.
I know highly educated people who are dirt poor and completely uneducated guys who are quite well off.
Is everyone shayich to running their own business? No.
In the same vein, is everyone shayich to these high paying jobs that you absolutely need a degree for? Also no.
Would some people be making more money than they are now if they had a degree? Probably. (at least al pi derech hatevah)
Would those educated people who "make it" with the really good jobs manage just fine without their degrees? I believe yes.

Will a degree help some people? probably yes, but I don't believe a proper secular education is the solution to the "shlichus addiction" problem.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2014, 08:00:57 AM »
Math is metamei children's brains?
Science (when tought properly) is metamei children's brains?
Isn't all chachmas haboreh?

How does all this shtim with shaar habechina in chovos halevavos?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2014, 11:10:21 AM »
It can be kedusha itself, it just depends on what your intentions are with the learning.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15950&st=&pgnum=161

וממנ״פ: אם לומד חכמות ע״ז שלא ע״מ...
להורות - מטמא בחי׳ חב״ד שבנפשו בטומאת ג״ק הטמאות לגמרי,
וכמו בשאר איסורים. ואם לומד ע״מ להבין ולהורות - ה״ז נכלל
בקדושה, במכש״כ וק״ו ממי לתא דבדיחותא שבתניא פ״ז שאינו אלא
לפקח דעתו וכאן הוא הקדמה וחלק מלימוד התורה.
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2014, 11:16:41 AM »
I've gotta say, this thread has really surprised me. I never thought that (seemingly many authorotative parts of) Chabad was so extreme about secular studies.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2014, 11:18:08 AM »
Math is metamei children's brains?
Science (when tought properly) is metamei children's brains?
Isn't all chachmas haboreh?

How does all this shtim with shaar habechina in chovos halevavos?
Clearly, that's only for a generation which is on a high level. Our lowly generation is unable to study secular studies until we finish yeshiva and kollel at age 31.
(do I need to add in a sarc symbol?)

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2014, 11:20:40 AM »
Clearly, that's only for a generation which is on a high level. Our lowly generation is unable to study secular studies until we finish yeshiva and kollel at age 31.
(do I need to add in a sarc symbol?)

You're confusing secular studies with secular schools
Purpose > Pleasure

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #87 on: February 24, 2014, 11:23:58 AM »
You're confusing secular studies with secular schools
Seemed to me that Yungerman was referring to secular studies in the context of a religious school.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #88 on: February 24, 2014, 11:38:27 AM »
Seemed to me that Yungerman was referring to secular studies in the context of a religious school.
+1
Yes, but even there, the difference between a K-12 school teaching the "times tables", biology, and long division
is a different issue than learning and delving into Shakespeare and Huckleberry Finn.

Also, the post-high school degree, and the intent of the pursuit matters, as well.
i.e. the goal of being a millionaire as an 'end in itself' vs. the goal of using talents to support family, make a Kiddish Hashem, and elevate aspects of the world to bring Moshiach...

There are people who are experts in certain areas, so the Rebbe would make exceptions for them.
Generally, I've never seen an issue of the Rebbe not supporting a high-school diploma,
however, the support for a college degree was usually very dependent on the student's talents, abilities, age, gender, if living at home, if single/married, what types of classes, campus environment, the mindset of the teacher in regard to belief in G-d, etc...


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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #89 on: March 06, 2014, 02:28:08 PM »
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