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ExGingi: Good morning Dan, how's you day going?

Dan: It's going well, thanks for asking.

ExGingi: Wrong. Bh you woke up, thanks to Hashem as explained in modeh ani and even more in depth in inyanei shel toras hachasidus. If you would understand that sicha properly you would know that one doesn't simply wake up, it's not us who wake up, but rather thanks to the brachas of the rebbe and Hashem's help we wake up.
« Last edited by jj1000 on April 20, 2017, 04:27:32 PM »

Author Topic: Shlichus Addiction?  (Read 12195 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #90 on: March 06, 2014, 02:29:29 PM »
Was at a levaya earlier this week and the shliach's vocab from right out of OT.

Miriam led the jewish women playing on their trampolines, etc. And the cringing went on and on from there.
Who are we kidding :(
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Offline Drago

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #91 on: March 06, 2014, 02:41:04 PM »
Miriam led the jewish women playing on their trampolines,
Wow, sounds much more exciting than the way I learnt it.
:)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #92 on: March 06, 2014, 04:27:12 PM »
Wow, sounds much more exciting than the way I learnt it.
:)
lol

Offline eliteflyer

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #93 on: March 17, 2014, 01:03:35 PM »
..." The meeting was scheduled for 11 PM. Prof. Rosenbloom realized that the Rebbe would be seeing many people before and after him. Feeling that the area in which he shared the greatest common interest with the Rebbe was chinuch (education), and to save the Rebbe time, he wrote some of his ideas down and gave them to one of the Rebbe's secretaries.

When he gave him the note, Prof. Rosenbloom told the secretary the general thrust of his thinking: that the programs of limudei kodesh (Torah studies) and limudei chol (secular studies) in Jewish day schools should be integrated.

The secretary reacted with shock. "There must be," he told the professor, "a distinction between the holy and the mundane! A child must know what is sacred and what is not."

When speaking to the Rebbe, however, Prof. Rosenbloom received a different picture. "Children should be taught to appreciate that everything is connected with the Torah," the Rebbe told him. "When they perform an experiment in a science lab, they should know that it is G-d's creative power that is causing the chemical reactions they observe.

"There are some," the Rebbe continued, "who have two sets of bookshelves, one for seforim [sacred texts] and another for secular books. That is the wrong approach. If a person thinks of secular wisdom as being unrelated to the Torah, he does not understand the Torah, nor does he truly understand the secular subject he is studying."...
Towards the end of his life, I used to visit  with Professor Rosenbloom at his Baycrest residence in Toronto and recall him personally sharing this story with me.

Offline Dan

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Online ExGingi

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #95 on: April 16, 2017, 01:08:37 AM »
This is why we need secular education:
http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/41634/comment-page-1#comment-566127
I know this is dated, but I just came across this thread (which predates my join date) while searching for something else.

IME yours truly, who doesn't have a high school diploma, and didn't learn English in school, could spell better than many people that learned English and got a high school diploma, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the quoted commenter posses a high school diploma.

Missing from this entire discussion is the place or need of vocational schools/training. Back in the day, the Rebbe established such a school in Kfar Chabad with very specific instructions. As far as I understand it was meant for bochurim that had a hard time THEN (before the digital age with all the distractions, that probably require a different approach) being in a full day learning program.

Offline Freddie

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #96 on: April 16, 2017, 01:18:04 AM »
Not trying to stroke your ego, but for the exceptionally intelligent, you're 100% right. A brilliant person with zero secular education and any degree of motivation will read and write English far better than most of the college graduates that the American system churns out today.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #97 on: April 16, 2017, 01:30:45 AM »
Not trying to stroke your ego, but for the exceptionally intelligent, you're 100% right. A brilliant person with zero secular education and any degree of motivation will read and write English far better than most of the college graduates that the American system churns out today.
I don't think it has much to do with intelligence. The absolute best way for a person to improve their spelling in any language is to read (obviously referring to items written in proper language). My son who had any formal language education (I don't consider whatever was taught in OT a form of language education - our kids are actually taught to be illiterate in 3 languages) is a book worm (and also likes to listen to old time recordings). He taught himself English by just reading whatever was available. I don't recall seeing him write in English, so I can't comment on that (though I wouldn't be surprised if it would be intentionally OT style), but his Hebrew and Yiddish writing is a something to be envious of.

Offline Freddie

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #98 on: April 16, 2017, 01:33:52 AM »
I don't think it has much to do with intelligence. The absolute best way for a person to improve their spelling in any language is to read (obviously referring to items written in proper language). My son who had any formal language education (I don't consider whatever was taught in OT a form of language education - our kids are actually taught to be illiterate in 3 languages) is a book worm (and also likes to listen to old time recordings). He taught himself English by just reading whatever was available. I don't recall seeing him write in English, so I can't comment on that (though I wouldn't be surprised if it would be intentionally OT style), but his Hebrew and Yiddish writing is a something to be envious of.

Some people read all day and still can't write well (or speak well) even in that same language. Like I said, it takes a certain amount of intelligence.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #99 on: April 16, 2017, 01:44:35 AM »
Some people read all day and still can't write well (or speak well) even in that same language. Like I said, it takes a certain amount of intelligence.
That certain amount of intelligence required is probably not more than average, though there might be other issues at play.

Whichever way that discussion might go, I am in steadfast agreement with the views espoused by whYME (though I wasn't triggered into this position the same way he was) and yungerman upthread. The Rebbe's (well documented and grounded) position is unequivocal: a child (and bochur) should be learning Limmudei Kodesh exclusively, year round (no 2 month summer break).

Offline Freddie

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #100 on: April 16, 2017, 01:59:39 AM »
BTW I'm not saying that people who can't master English on their own SHOULD get a secular education, I'm just saying that those who master English without any secular education are exceptionally intelligent people.

Offline gozalim

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #101 on: April 16, 2017, 04:32:59 AM »
Leaving aside the rest of the discussion, the link between shlichus and secular education is a false link.
Not a single one of the sichos against secular education mentions shlichus, though they do mention multiple other reasons which are universally applicable.
availability of shlichus got nothing to do with it...
[/rant]

Offline AsherO

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #102 on: April 16, 2017, 06:19:42 AM »
Some people read all day and still can't write well (or speak well) even in that same language. Like I said, it takes a certain amount of intelligence.

And yet other people are highly intelligent and well read, but still have poor spelling and poor written/spoken grammar.

So I'm with ExG on this one, there's more to it than intelligence, though I'm sure having higher intelligence helps.
לא נתנה שישי אלא לאוכלי הקראו

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #103 on: April 16, 2017, 12:27:16 PM »
Oh man, also a late newcomer to this thread. There are many things going on which are being connected, when a connection is not necessarily there.

IMHO, let's break it down:

1) the second class status - e.g. calling Crown Heightsers "farmers" - of non Shluchim

This is absolutely an issue. It is not something derived from the Rebbe and is something that should be abolished and obliterated.

2) limudei chol for kids

The Rebbe clearly voiced his opposition (see sources upthread) yet the Rebbe didn't disband ULY, and continued to encourage other schools to open with limudei chol (albeit with conditions, such as beginning in the morning with the kodesh). To say the reasoning was only to attract outsiders is a stretch. There are many cities that 2 schools could have been opened. And the Rebbe doesn't seem to explicitly offer that "excuse" - to my knowledge. One might even conclude that OT is the exception, not the rule.

3) mesivta - high school education

I don't have much knowledge about the Rebbe's view about this as separate from kids Chinuch.

4) liberal arts College education

This was an unequivocal no from the Rebbe. The only exceptions I have heard, in this thread or any other place, were those who had already begun studying. Of those, there are dozens of people the Rebbe told to complete their studies, and even pursue further studies including PhDs, etc.

5) vocational studies

Studying a specific secular subject for the purpose of parnassah is entirely different to just "getting a degree" and something the Rebbe was more supportive of.

Incidentally, in "Rebbe," which I just read, Telushkin does a pretty good job detailing the Rebbe's nuanced view on college education.

Age and stage of life is also a factor.

6) the ability to earn a living without secular education.

I know of people who have become lawyers, accountants, and doctors after completing the system.

The numbers of people who work in fields entirely different to thesubject of their university degrees is huge.

I earn a living (in not exactly flush, but thank G-d, I get by) as a writer (in English) having learned English and math up until 7th grade. I know this comment isn't exactly the best advertisement, but I'm writing it on glass with a thumb, I'm not going to correct grammar and spelling.

Ime, there is no correlation of success of lack thereof between people who graduated the system without secular studies and those with diplomas and initials. Obviously I've never conducted a survey or study, but that's my feeling.

Regarding the Shluchim using bad English (my target market as a writer ☺️) - again there is no correlation between good English and success. One Shliach I know makes the most hilarious speeches, quotes of which have become part of Chabad urban legend (extinguished guests, for one. My personal favorite: on the phone with a customer service rep he said, "Y as on Wyoming").

His community is one of the most affluent in the country, he speaks before multi millionaire businessmen and professionals, and they couldn't give two hoots. He is as truthful and warm a person as there is, and that's all they care about. Good English they can get from their secretaries. I went to a funeral he lead, and I struggled to hold in my laughter at some points. The family couldn't stop thanking him for the beautiful job he did.

As an aside, my bona fides for the above:
1) My parents are Shluchim. My in laws are Shluchim. I never dreamed I'd do anything else but shlichus. I still hope to, but like Facebook says, it's complicated. There is no bitterness or jealousy behind my comment.

2) my father was one of the the first students in Oholei Torah. My grandparents were moser nefesh to send him there. The passion for chinuch al taharas hakodesh with zero limudei chol runs deep in my blood. Yet one cannot ignore the other facts on the ground.


4) one of the more famous sources of the Rebbe explaining his opposition despite his studies in university, (just because one person jumped into a fire and came out unscathed, doesn't mean anyone else should jump in) was told to my grandparents in a yechidus.

Anyway, where are you going for a chol hamoed trip?
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@Yehuda57, that is the best post ever.

Offline henche

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #104 on: April 16, 2017, 01:03:23 PM »
I think it's unfair that the chabad baalei teshuva who already are doctors and chemists and whatever get to have a real education and profession and still be just as chabad, but if you grow up in it you can only sell miles. 

Same gripe in my own community,  but this thread isn't about me