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« Last edited by jj1000 on April 20, 2017, 04:27:32 PM »

Author Topic: Shlichus Addiction?  (Read 89880 times)

Offline Freddie

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #100 on: April 16, 2017, 01:59:39 AM »
BTW I'm not saying that people who can't master English on their own SHOULD get a secular education, I'm just saying that those who master English without any secular education are exceptionally intelligent people.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #101 on: April 16, 2017, 04:32:59 AM »
Leaving aside the rest of the discussion, the link between shlichus and secular education is a false link.
Not a single one of the sichos against secular education mentions shlichus, though they do mention multiple other reasons which are universally applicable.
availability of shlichus got nothing to do with it...
[/rant]

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #102 on: April 16, 2017, 06:19:42 AM »
Some people read all day and still can't write well (or speak well) even in that same language. Like I said, it takes a certain amount of intelligence.

And yet other people are highly intelligent and well read, but still have poor spelling and poor written/spoken grammar.

So I'm with ExG on this one, there's more to it than intelligence, though I'm sure having higher intelligence helps.
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #103 on: April 16, 2017, 12:27:16 PM »
Oh man, also a late newcomer to this thread. There are many things going on which are being connected, when a connection is not necessarily there.

IMHO, let's break it down:

1) the second class status - e.g. calling Crown Heightsers "farmers" - of non Shluchim

This is absolutely an issue. It is not something derived from the Rebbe and is something that should be abolished and obliterated.

2) limudei chol for kids

The Rebbe clearly voiced his opposition (see sources upthread) yet the Rebbe didn't disband ULY, and continued to encourage other schools to open with limudei chol (albeit with conditions, such as beginning in the morning with the kodesh). To say the reasoning was only to attract outsiders is a stretch. There are many cities that 2 schools could have been opened. And the Rebbe doesn't seem to explicitly offer that "excuse" - to my knowledge. One might even conclude that OT is the exception, not the rule.

3) mesivta - high school education

I don't have much knowledge about the Rebbe's view about this as separate from kids Chinuch.

4) liberal arts College education

This was an unequivocal no from the Rebbe. The only exceptions I have heard, in this thread or any other place, were those who had already begun studying. Of those, there are dozens of people the Rebbe told to complete their studies, and even pursue further studies including PhDs, etc.

5) vocational studies

Studying a specific secular subject for the purpose of parnassah is entirely different to just "getting a degree" and something the Rebbe was more supportive of.

Incidentally, in "Rebbe," which I just read, Telushkin does a pretty good job detailing the Rebbe's nuanced view on college education.

Age and stage of life is also a factor.

6) the ability to earn a living without secular education.

I know of people who have become lawyers, accountants, and doctors after completing the system.

The numbers of people who work in fields entirely different to thesubject of their university degrees is huge.

I earn a living (in not exactly flush, but thank G-d, I get by) as a writer (in English) having learned English and math up until 7th grade. I know this comment isn't exactly the best advertisement, but I'm writing it on glass with a thumb, I'm not going to correct grammar and spelling.

Ime, there is no correlation of success of lack thereof between people who graduated the system without secular studies and those with diplomas and initials. Obviously I've never conducted a survey or study, but that's my feeling.

Regarding the Shluchim using bad English (my target market as a writer ☺️) - again there is no correlation between good English and success. One Shliach I know makes the most hilarious speeches, quotes of which have become part of Chabad urban legend (extinguished guests, for one. My personal favorite: on the phone with a customer service rep he said, "Y as on Wyoming").

His community is one of the most affluent in the country, he speaks before multi millionaire businessmen and professionals, and they couldn't give two hoots. He is as truthful and warm a person as there is, and that's all they care about. Good English they can get from their secretaries. I went to a funeral he lead, and I struggled to hold in my laughter at some points. The family couldn't stop thanking him for the beautiful job he did.

As an aside, my bona fides for the above:
1) My parents are Shluchim. My in laws are Shluchim. I never dreamed I'd do anything else but shlichus. I still hope to, but like Facebook says, it's complicated. There is no bitterness or jealousy behind my comment.

2) my father was one of the the first students in Oholei Torah. My grandparents were moser nefesh to send him there. The passion for chinuch al taharas hakodesh with zero limudei chol runs deep in my blood. Yet one cannot ignore the other facts on the ground.


4) one of the more famous sources of the Rebbe explaining his opposition despite his studies in university, (just because one person jumped into a fire and came out unscathed, doesn't mean anyone else should jump in) was told to my grandparents in a yechidus.

Anyway, where are you going for a chol hamoed trip?

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #104 on: April 16, 2017, 01:03:23 PM »
I think it's unfair that the chabad baalei teshuva who already are doctors and chemists and whatever get to have a real education and profession and still be just as chabad, but if you grow up in it you can only sell miles. 

Same gripe in my own community,  but this thread isn't about me

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #105 on: April 16, 2017, 01:07:54 PM »

Leaving aside the rest of the discussion, the link between shlichus and secular education is a false link.
Not a single one of the sichos against secular education mentions shlichus, though they do mention multiple other reasons which are universally applicable.
availability of shlichus got nothing to do with it...
[/rant]
Another question to be asked, from all those espousing secular education as a preparation for life/parnossa, is whether the "Al Taharas Hakodesh" Lubavitch curriculum is optimized towards preparing for Shlichus?

I would not be surprised, if educational experts were to be invited to chime in, and be given the ultimate purpose of Shlichus (of which only a percentage of actual work is directly related to what's studied in Yeshiva), they would design an entirely different curriculum. Public speaking, language skills, communication skills, counseling skills, etc. would take center stage of such a curriculum. Yet, our yeshivas do not focus on any of those.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #106 on: April 16, 2017, 01:16:46 PM »

There were definitely people told to go and many told not to.
I'm sure you are aware that there are several methods of writing a question, even post gimmel tamuz.

To say point blank that the Rebbe was against all secular education is a farce.  It's no secret that the Rebbe himself was sorbonne educated and was knowledgable in all aspects of worldly matters.  Many have letters from the Rebbe that they should find their life's mission via secular studies.

Is that guidance to the masses? Is everyone up to that task? Perhaps not.

The key is not putting yourself in a compromising situation.  I went through the full Chabad system (3 years mesivta, 3 years zal, 1 year shlichus, 1 year smicha) and got a high school diploma from PIT and a BA from the rosh.  After that I got an MBA but I specifically did from a local college where I'd be able to go back to my parent's home every night.

To put yourself in an immersive situation like going away from home to a college is asking for trouble IMHO.
Of all people around, I am absolutely surprised at you taking the positions you are taking here.

A few questions to ponder:

1. How much did your secular studies contribute to your business success?

2. Would you have not received you BA from the Rosh without your high-school diploma? Were any of your secular studies a contributing factor in getting your BA?

3. When you enrolled in whatever MBA program you did, were you asked for your high-school diploma, or was your BA enough?

4. How did any of your education (limudei kodesh and/or limudei chol) contribute to your parnossa and/or business success?

5. Last time I checked, it is possible to get a GED if one doesn't posses a high school diploma and one is required. Is all the precious time in yeshiva, that could be spent on kodesh, really necessary?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #107 on: April 16, 2017, 01:20:29 PM »

I think it's unfair that the chabad baalei teshuva who already are doctors and chemists and whatever get to have a real education and profession and still be just as chabad, but if you grow up in it you can only sell miles. 

Same gripe in my own community,  but this thread isn't about me
Answering Yehuda57's final question, I'm about to go with my kids to LSC. He is much more eloquent than I am, so I hope he responds to your misguided question, but if he doesn't I will bl"n address as soon as time permits.
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Offline lubaby

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #108 on: April 16, 2017, 01:35:49 PM »
I think it's unfair that the chabad baalei teshuva who already are doctors and chemists and whatever get to have a real education and profession and still be just as chabad, but if you grow up in it you can only sell miles.

Same gripe in my own community,  but this thread isn't about me
Meh, go open an Amazon business (probably FBA).

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #109 on: April 16, 2017, 01:58:01 PM »
BTW I'm not saying that people who can't master English on their own SHOULD get a secular education, I'm just saying that those who master English without any secular education are exceptionally intelligent people.
just by learning in yeshiva for a thru zall would put %99.99 in that category.
even the not "chassidish" ones(who usually have a lot of lachluches in them for that matter  ;))

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #110 on: April 16, 2017, 02:55:23 PM »
Answering Yehuda57's final question, I'm about to go with my kids to LSC. He is much more eloquent than I am, so I hope he responds to your misguided question, but if he doesn't I will bl"n address as soon as time permits.

Shkoyach

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #111 on: April 16, 2017, 04:39:48 PM »
Of all people around, I am absolutely surprised at you taking the positions you are taking here.

A few questions to ponder:

1. How much did your secular studies contribute to your business success?

2. Would you have not received you BA from the Rosh without your high-school diploma? Were any of your secular studies a contributing factor in getting your BA?

3. When you enrolled in whatever MBA program you did, were you asked for your high-school diploma, or was your BA enough?

4. How did any of your education (limudei kodesh and/or limudei chol) contribute to your parnossa and/or business success?

5. Last time I checked, it is possible to get a GED if one doesn't posses a high school diploma and one is required. Is all the precious time in yeshiva, that could be spent on kodesh, really necessary?

1. I am definitely a better writer due to receiving some level of secular education. I have friends who went to high schools without English who simply can't write.

2. Shochet required shochad, not a GED. Other places to as well. Whole system is pretty sick, they don't make it easy to get.

3. BA.

4. I'd say they both did, feel free to ask someone who attended my hour long DD history speech over YT. People have told me it was the most inspirational thing they've ever heard!

5. Good Enough Degree doesn't give any of the tools that may be necessary in life. I graduated number one in my MBA class, I don't think that happens without previous secular education.

Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #112 on: April 16, 2017, 04:40:51 PM »
Another question to be asked, from all those espousing secular education as a preparation for life/parnossa, is whether the "Al Taharas Hakodesh" Lubavitch curriculum is optimized towards preparing for Shlichus?

I would not be surprised, if educational experts were to be invited to chime in, and be given the ultimate purpose of Shlichus (of which only a percentage of actual work is directly related to what's studied in Yeshiva), they would design an entirely different curriculum. Public speaking, language skills, communication skills, counseling skills, etc. would take center stage of such a curriculum. Yet, our yeshivas do not focus on any of those.
So our yeshivas don't properly prepare kids for jobs or shlichus. Cool.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #113 on: April 16, 2017, 04:46:17 PM »
Oh man, also a late newcomer to this thread. There are many things going on which are being connected, when a connection is not necessarily there.

IMHO, let's break it down:

1) the second class status - e.g. calling Crown Heightsers "farmers" - of non Shluchim

This is absolutely an issue. It is not something derived from the Rebbe and is something that should be abolished and obliterated.

2) limudei chol for kids

The Rebbe clearly voiced his opposition (see sources upthread) yet the Rebbe didn't disband ULY, and continued to encourage other schools to open with limudei chol (albeit with conditions, such as beginning in the morning with the kodesh). To say the reasoning was only to attract outsiders is a stretch. There are many cities that 2 schools could have been opened. And the Rebbe doesn't seem to explicitly offer that "excuse" - to my knowledge. One might even conclude that OT is the exception, not the rule.

3) mesivta - high school education

I don't have much knowledge about the Rebbe's view about this as separate from kids Chinuch.

4) liberal arts College education

This was an unequivocal no from the Rebbe. The only exceptions I have heard, in this thread or any other place, were those who had already begun studying. Of those, there are dozens of people the Rebbe told to complete their studies, and even pursue further studies including PhDs, etc.

5) vocational studies

Studying a specific secular subject for the purpose of parnassah is entirely different to just "getting a degree" and something the Rebbe was more supportive of.

Incidentally, in "Rebbe," which I just read, Telushkin does a pretty good job detailing the Rebbe's nuanced view on college education.

Age and stage of life is also a factor.

6) the ability to earn a living without secular education.

I know of people who have become lawyers, accountants, and doctors after completing the system.

The numbers of people who work in fields entirely different to thesubject of their university degrees is huge.

I earn a living (in not exactly flush, but thank G-d, I get by) as a writer (in English) having learned English and math up until 7th grade. I know this comment isn't exactly the best advertisement, but I'm writing it on glass with a thumb, I'm not going to correct grammar and spelling.

Ime, there is no correlation of success of lack thereof between people who graduated the system without secular studies and those with diplomas and initials. Obviously I've never conducted a survey or study, but that's my feeling.

Regarding the Shluchim using bad English (my target market as a writer ☺️) - again there is no correlation between good English and success. One Shliach I know makes the most hilarious speeches, quotes of which have become part of Chabad urban legend (extinguished guests, for one. My personal favorite: on the phone with a customer service rep he said, "Y as on Wyoming").

His community is one of the most affluent in the country, he speaks before multi millionaire businessmen and professionals, and they couldn't give two hoots. He is as truthful and warm a person as there is, and that's all they care about. Good English they can get from their secretaries. I went to a funeral he lead, and I struggled to hold in my laughter at some points. The family couldn't stop thanking him for the beautiful job he did.

As an aside, my bona fides for the above:
1) My parents are Shluchim. My in laws are Shluchim. I never dreamed I'd do anything else but shlichus. I still hope to, but like Facebook says, it's complicated. There is no bitterness or jealousy behind my comment.

2) my father was one of the the first students in Oholei Torah. My grandparents were moser nefesh to send him there. The passion for chinuch al taharas hakodesh with zero limudei chol runs deep in my blood. Yet one cannot ignore the other facts on the ground.


4) one of the more famous sources of the Rebbe explaining his opposition despite his studies in university, (just because one person jumped into a fire and came out unscathed, doesn't mean anyone else should jump in) was told to my grandparents in a yechidus.

Anyway, where are you going for a chol hamoed trip?
1. It's so ingrained into the system that shichus is the only way to reach your full potential that I don't see how it can be abolished.

2. Well said.

4. I don't advocate a traditional college education.
FWIW I got into MBA school, my brother into MD school, and another brother into law school without a traditional college education.
Does that happen without a high school education? I don't know.

5. Sounds like the approach of getting a BA from yeshiva and taking courses to get an MBA/MD/JD...I just don't know why yeshivas make it so hard to get a BA.

6. Make a real survey. I'd definitely posit that my friends who went to PIT have more professional jobs than to mesivtas without english.
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #114 on: April 16, 2017, 04:57:20 PM »

So our yeshivas don't properly prepare kids for jobs or shlichus. Cool.
Exactly.

Wasn't it you who quoted upthread that חב״ד מאנט פנימיות? Yeshiva is not about preparation for a career. I cringe when I hear the expression "going through the system".

Up until a stage when a child begins learning גמרא, it could be argued that there's a dual purpose, learning and preparing for the next level. Once a child has reached the mental capacity of לימוד הגמרא, it's all about learning, not about preparing for a next level.

Obviously, once a person learns at a certain level, one can go deeper and deeper and develop further, but the learning in and of itself is the purpose.

And while there's a lot to improve in our Yeshivos, and introducing some skills (not as a direct learning subject, but as a skill that can be acquired while focusing on something else - case in point: חזרת דא״ח, having bochurim actually say over a מאמר as if they are teaching it to the crowd, rather than reciting something that no-one can follow. My most memorable experience was when I was forced to do it in English, it was the most meaningful one I've done.)
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #115 on: April 16, 2017, 05:07:24 PM »
if this was in hebrew we would be able to get all the mashpi'im to chime in.
what a shame ;)

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #116 on: April 16, 2017, 07:20:30 PM »
if this was in hebrew we would be able to get all the mashpi'im to chime in.
what a shame ;)

DDF (and Lubavitch at large) has qualified Mashpiim who can answer questions in coherent English.
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #117 on: April 16, 2017, 07:48:04 PM »
Motti Lipsker had a great (but of course very controversial) article in the N'shei Chabad Journal earlier this year, I just happened to have read it for the first time a couple of days ago.

http://chabadinfo.com/opinions/training-the-second-brigade/

(He's talking about dealing with the current realities of shlichus opportunities, not about secular education, so it's not really so relevant to the current discussion here.)

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #118 on: April 16, 2017, 08:28:29 PM »
I think it's unfair that the chabad baalei teshuva who already are doctors and chemists and whatever get to have a real education and profession and still be just as chabad, but if you grow up in it you can only sell miles. 
1. That's simply not true. I have several friends/classmates who've become lawyers and one who's a doctor. The one Lubavitch chemist I know happens to be a BT but became frum as a teen and only became a chemist long after becoming frum and years of yeshiva. (I won't even talk about things like tech which don't usually require 4+ years of school)

2. "real education," seriously? that's the real education, not the torah they learn?

3.
Growing up I quickly realized that all the "rich" kids were those whose fathers went to OT, none of the  BT parents with their  college degrees were raking it in. Ever since then I haven't been a believer in the whole "college is the answer" thing.
I know highly educated people who are dirt poor and completely uneducated guys who are quite well off.
Is everyone shayich to running their own business? No.
In the same vein, is everyone shayich to these high paying jobs that you absolutely need a degree for? Also no.
Would some people be making more money than they are now if they had a degree? Probably. (at least al pi derech hatevah)
Would those educated people who "make it" with the really good jobs manage just fine without their degrees? I believe yes.

Will a degree help some people? probably yes, but I don't believe a proper secular education is the solution to the "shlichus addiction" problem.

Bottom line I'm sure many (most?) of these "lucky" BT's would gladly trade in their pre-college education for a chassidishe upbringing and education.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #119 on: April 16, 2017, 08:35:51 PM »
Loved him to pieces when I was there.  But the second you're gone he doesn't remember you.  Heard the same from many others.
Interesting.
I just saw him at a wedding in L.A. last year for the first time in at least 10, maybe 15 years.  He recognized me and came over to say hello...

Now the Rosh was another story. I went to daven at yeshiva maybe 5-6 years after I learnt there and he had no idea who I was.