Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[aygart]

Of course. But they all said it.

That sounds like we should all only start from raw produce.

[henche]

I have way more confidence in the OU, than in the mom and pop chassidishe hechsher shops.

I don't doubt that they're ehrlich, or that they're talmidei chachomim. I do doubt that they have enough industry exposure.

[aygart]

I have way more confidence in the OU, than in the mom and pop chassidishe hechsher shops.

I don't doubt that they're ehrlich, or that they're talmidei chachomim. I do doubt that they have enough industry exposure.

Someone erlich would not give a hechsher on something he dues not have the prerequisite knowledge to supervise. Many of them share mashgichim with the national organizations but add their own standards.

[churnbabychurn]

+1000
also @churnbabychurn not withstanding the truth to what @aygart said above, there is a large interdependency. I've had the privilege of being at a meeting with the heads of every single NY based hashgocha, bar none. at the end of the day, for a specific raw ingredient, all of them, bar none, from MO to the chassidishe rebbes,  pointed to one guy, said we rely on him, and notwithstanding the significant issues with the product and his hashgocha on that product, it's his (and his organizations) achrayus, not ours.

Who is this "one guy"??

[churnbabychurn]

There is a difference between the political organization and the kashrus division though.

Who leads the kashruth division? Who does he answer too?

[churnbabychurn]

I have way more confidence in the OU, than in the mom and pop chassidishe hechsher shops.

I don't doubt that they're ehrlich, or that they're talmidei chachomim. I do doubt that they have enough industry exposure.

This is always the answer.

I disagree.. to be continued

[churnbabychurn]

Someone erlich would not give a hechsher on something he dues not have the prerequisite knowledge to supervise. Many of them share mashgichim with the national organizations but add their own standards.

I would hope this is true. If not we have a problem.. everyone is relying on basically nothing but a large prosperous non-profit...

[henche]

Who leads the kashruth division? Who does he answer too?

Used to be Rabbi Belsky z"tzl. You've heard of him?

I dunno who took over.

[Emkay]

Ask these guys.

That isn't due to standards for the most part but their leanings on the right/left scale.

[avromie7]

Used to be Rabbi Belsky z"tzl. You've heard of him?

I dunno who took over.

-1 he was a halachik opinion, they did not need to answer to him or listen to him.

[aygart]

Who leads the kashruth division? Who does he answer too?

There being a difference does not mean they have no connection or influence. Rabbi Genack is not quite chassidish either.

.

[churnbabychurn]

Used to be Rabbi Belsky z"tzl. You've heard of him?

I dunno who took over.

When he was alive it was a great marketing gimik. He never took responsibility for the kashrus, just answered sheilos. Now there is nothing.

[thaber]

When he was alive it was a great marketing gimik. He never took responsibility for the kashrus, just answered sheilos. Now there is nothing.

Meh. Their poskim were rabbi Belsky and rabbi Shechter. Their opinions held a lot of weight and policy followed them.
Politics aside, Rabbi genack is a serious scholar as well, and has been known to writes serious teshuvos to back up his psakim.

[skyguy918]

When he was alive it was a great marketing gimik. He never took responsibility for the kashrus, just answered sheilos. Now there is nothing.

I heard that they now ask shailos to at least 2 other. One is R' Osher Weiss, another is a Rov from Bnei Brak whose name escapes me at the moment.

[ExGingi]

The looks like you did not read what I wrote in its entirety. They may rely but not blindly.

I definitely did read what you wrote in it's entirety.

It is my understanding that once they are aware of the standards of the OU for a specific product, if they find it acceptable, they will rely on it.

I am a member of a Kashrus related whatsapp group, that has quite a few knowledgeable members, that have worked with or witnessed the Hashgochos of various organizations (including CRC, OK, OU, Rav Landa of Bnei Brak, as well as other "Chareidy" Hechsherim from EY).

There seems to be a consensus (no one discussing restaurants which is an entirely different animal) that the OU is reliable wherever one would find their standards (which they are quite transparent about) acceptable.

OTOH many "Chareidy" sounding Hashgochos lack the resources and/or knowledge/expertise.

[moko]

I definitely did read what you wrote in it's entirety.

It is my understanding that once they are aware of the standards of the OU for a specific product, if they find it acceptable, they will rely on it.

-1
Much of the research they conduct is not just "standard" related, plant specific including who the RC of the company and  mashgiach at a specific plant is.
There are weak links across the Kashrus industry from the smallest hechsherim to the largest (including mine). The first  step is to acknowledge that and develop a system to deal with it. A statement which requires the RC to review his plants annually is great. Having a dedicated review team is another method. The point is to actually make sure these things are happening. Unfortunately, finiances get in the way more often than not and reviews cost money.
Question is not if there are failings but rather how they are addressed. I can tell you first hand, there's no way for an RC to properly manage over 500 companies unless they are Group 1

[churnbabychurn]

 The fact that they are "professional", and "scholarly" (or ask the right scholars), is very well established. This is actually the reason everyone thinks they are amazing.
To me, the primary requirement as a kashrus organization is the reliability of it's leadership. We are litteraly relying on these people, we need to trust and respect them.
we hold them in some form of esteem. - in the rest of the world hechsherim are given by either rabbonim or botei din. Not political organizations.

Is everyone totally obvious to this  distinction?!?

The OU as an organization is driven by profits and reputation. I am looking for hechsherim that are driven by yiras shomayim or at least someone perceived as one is telling you it's OK.
Professionalism and expertise are also crucial. But secondary.

[sky121]

Does anyone have more info on the reasonings of why Elite left the badatz hechsher and if it's across ALL their products. Seems like it is.

[aygart]

The fact that they are "professional", and "scholarly" (or ask the right scholars), is very well established. This is actually the reason everyone thinks they are amazing.
To me, the primary requirement as a kashrus organization is the reliability of it's leadership. We are litteraly relying on these people, we need to trust and respect them.
we hold them in some form of esteem. - in the rest of the world hechsherim are given by either rabbonim or botei din. Not political organizations.

Is everyone totally obvious to this  distinction?!?

The OU as an organization is driven by profits and reputation. I am looking for hechsherim that are driven by yiras shomayim or at least someone perceived as one is telling you it's OK.
Professionalism and expertise are also crucial. But secondary.

And the Eida Chareidis?

[ExGingi]

The OU as an organization is driven by profits and reputation. I am looking for hechsherim that are driven by yiras shomayim or at least someone perceived as one is telling you it's OK.
Professionalism and expertise are also crucial. But secondary.

In today's complex and interdependent world of food production, professionalism and expertise are not secondary, but are equally necessary. With the best intentions and yiras shomayim, one might simply not have a clue as to where problems could occur.

That is why Eida Chareidis and Rav Landa of Bnei Brak are considered to be be at a different level than all others, due to the combination of these ingredients. I find it as no coincidence, that both of these (while Kashrus is a significant source of income) have served and will serve even without the Kashrus organization, something that can't be said about many (if not most) other (even "Chareidy") Hechsherim.

That being said, I once had a conversation with my nephew, who proudly announced that he will only eat Badatz (Eida Chareidis) and Landa, and couldn't understand why his grandfather (my FIL) had such disdain for such a statement. I explained to him that while no one refutes the fact that those two Kashrus organizations hold the highest (or strictest) standards, one shouldn't think for a second that if he decides to rely only on those two, he is in any way holier than one who would accept more lenient Hechsherim. If you decide that you want to be machmir for yourself, תבוא עליך ברכה, but once you make it public, it smells of "holier than thou" וכו׳ וד״ל.