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The wiki is divided into groups for "fact" and "opinion." Please feel free to add whichever facts you know and opinions you have. Please try to avoid cluttering the wiki with unnecessary information such as outside links.

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Facts
The flu vaccine causes more deaths per year than chicken pox.
The direct injection of RSV immunoglobulin, commonly known as the "RSV vaccine" would prevent 16x more deaths than the flu vaccine does, but is too expensive.
There is a vaccine for the plague, and that is why it is no longer an epidemic.
Ebola is caused by vaccines.
There is a vaccine for autism, but it causes mumps.


Opinions
Vaccines do not contain thimerosal, a known toxin.
If you snuck up on your neighbor's kid and cut open his skull, you would be arrested.  But when brain surgeons do it, and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars, it considered "medicine."
99% of vaccines do not cause autism (HT JJ1000).
Every pedi has seen healthy kids become sick physically & mentally hours after a vax (HT Baryochai)
Vaccines cause cancer, infertility, astma, adhd etc (HT Baryochai)

Poll

Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?

Yes (Shot)
121 (37.6%)
Yes (Nasal Spray)
5 (1.6%)
No
196 (60.9%)

Total Members Voted: 320

Author Topic: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread  (Read 544889 times)

Online aygart

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1660 on: September 01, 2015, 06:05:52 PM »
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/03/03/effective_messages_in_vaccine_promotion_when_it_comes_to_anti_vaxxers_there.html
Quote
According to a New Study, Nothing Can Change an Anti-Vaxxer’s Mind
Nothing, Not Even Hard Facts, Can Make Anti-Vaxxers Change Their Minds

Researchers found a backlash effect when presented with scientific evidence that vaccines don't cause autism

In other words, it is CULT!

http://healthland.time.com/2014/03/04/nothing-not-even-hard-facts-can-make-anti-vaxxers-change-their-minds/

Here is to 226 page report,  http://www.unicef.org/immunization/files/EN-ImmSumm-2013.pdf

Sweden page 94  DTaPHibIPV & Pneumo_conj other vaccines are only given to high risk groups

6 vaccines @ 3 & 5 months total of 12 in 1st 1/2 year  2 deaths per 1000 in 1st year 3 deaths total until age 5

DTaP 2, 4, 6, HepB birth 1-2, 6- Hib 2, 4, 6, Flu 6 months IPV 2, 4, 6- Pneumo_conj 2, 4, 6, Rotavirus 2, 4, 6  Total 26 in 1st 6 months 6  deaths in 1st year 3x 2more deaths to age 5 thats double

Same story with Japan Norway Singapore low vax low death USA Canada Australia high vax high death rate

reduce the us vax sched to the Swedish  schedule & save 16.000 American innocent lives  5 September 11s by the pharmaceutical Mafia

Sorry 16.000 case of coincidence

Regarding Sweden:
Barryg, it seems that you have some honest concerns about the flu vaccine. I understand that and respect your right to be thorough in understanding what goes into your body.

az, below is a chart of pertussis cases in Sweden between the years 1992 and 1998.



Sweden did not give the pertussis vaccine during the 1992-1995 years. Due to the epidemic they began giving it again in 1996. By 1998 one can easily see the effectiveness of the vaccine. You can make charts say whatever you want them to say, the question is who are you going to believe the entire scientific community or a small number of (generally medically uneducated) conspiracy theorists?
For the entire scientific article (not random graphs with little or no explanation) http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=84


In reply to an earlier version of that study here
Is it the schedule that "makes problems" or the vaccine? You are looking at the wrong numbers. A much higher percentage in Japan are vaccinated than in Canada notwithstanding the schedule. That is, of course, besides the miniscule sample size of 4 countries. Arvach arva tzarich.
In reply to this
Quote
Quote from: ThinkTwice on April 28, 2014, 10:05:40 AMhttp://www.betternaturalhealing.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/vaccine-and-infant-mortality-article.pdf

usa gov data showing infant death rate drastically  higher when babies get more vaccines
you didn't read the article. It is not a government article and again is based on vaccination schedules not coverage. Can you give any coherent explanation as to why the schedule makes a difference? They brush it of saying that all are above 90% coverage anyhow and therefore should not make a difference. Isn't coverage the only thing which makes a difference?
See here


 :-\ ??? ??? ??? You think going over it a second time will make me think twice? How about think once, but THINK. ::)
Quote
Quote from: ThinkTwice on April 29, 2014, 11:20:53 AMHow come the infant death rates in us are 3 times as high as Japan Singopore Iceland Sweden were they give under 1/2 the vaccines

Do you need an MD licence just to do some simple math  http://www.betternaturalhealing.com/?cat=198
We already debunked that one.
Quote
Quote from: ThinkTwice on April 29, 2014, 11:53:50 AMUN report clearly shows USA infant deaths 7 in 1,000 Jam packed vax schedule  & over 90% compliance

Japan Singapore  Iceland Sweden etc close 1/4  recommended vaccines infant deaths 2 in 1,000
Maybe I am missing something, but ALL of those have coverage rates quite a bit higher than the US with Japan at 99% compared to US 92%. Just being over 90% doesn't mean equivalency. You are again looking at the schedule as the primary factor while the ONLY thing that really matters is coverage ::) . This seems to show that in order to get the US mortality rates down we need better compliance and that those who resist vaccines should start taking them. :P
In response to this
http://www.vaclib.org/intro/present/measlesdeathchart.gif
Again with the name calling ::) ....Your charts are not the same. His is of incidence while yours is mortality. It seems that the mortality rate of measles dropped significantly prior to the introduction of vaccines. That in no way reflects upon whether or not vaccines affect incidence, which is what they are intended to do. Incidence most certainly did drop significantly with the introduction of vaccines. Also, even the mortality chart is a ראי' לסתור as it shows that deaths remained steady from the early 50s until they virtually disappeared with the introduction of the vaccine.

With a bit of thought even a layman can see gaping holes in such "logic" as I had done earlier upthread with other similarly shaky stats.
This one you will need to go to the link to get what is going on
Since we are having memory issues (were you vaccinated :P )Even your chart shows the advantages of vaccines.Thsuvasam bitzidam :o Even if true, if that is the whole issue....Oh the innocent babies :'( ...25% still exists. :o Who is more qualified to understand these studies?Your kitchen chairs or couch or other stuff have similar warnings. Grow up!Do you have a double blind study on this? Do they have the same aversion to AAA treatments as they do to vaccines? That would answer it-the issue is diagnosis.Sound familiar? ::)
 Now that it is quite clear that we are going in circles there is less reason to worry that someone who reads this may make a mistake and think there is substance in what you write. I am likely not to continue.
I've had this question of reading comprehension each time someone pops in with these quotes against vaccines. The two seem correlated.
So now NOT vaccinating causes reading comprehension issues? :P
well, I guess after all the horrible things they try to sneak into you they must have done unintentionally good side effects.

BTW, are you ThinkTwice? You english is about as incomprehensible.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1661 on: September 01, 2015, 06:06:47 PM »
Every single thing you mentioned was debunked earlier in this thread.
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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1662 on: September 01, 2015, 06:27:56 PM »

Offline jackofall

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1663 on: September 01, 2015, 06:35:59 PM »
You don't see why? You sound honest but do you really not see the connection? When do you trust the government and when don't you? About what kinds of things do you resist conventional wisdom and about which kinds of things do you not ask questions?
I got you. Honestly I didn't see where you were going with that.
Furthermore I would add that should any anti vaxxer ch"v need an emergency room or a hospital visit, I hope they don't have the chutzpah to go to a conventional medical establishment. Although not sure exactly what their options are.
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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1664 on: September 01, 2015, 07:55:41 PM »
Please provide the name and phone number of the neurologist that said their is a known connection between chicken pox vaccine and not being able to walk.
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Offline elit

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1665 on: September 01, 2015, 08:25:29 PM »
I must admit this is entertaining but why do you guys waste your time you are literally screaming at a brick wall

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1666 on: September 01, 2015, 08:28:53 PM »
BTW, are you ThinkTwice? You english is about as incomprehensible.
My thoughts exactly, same grammar, save style posts with meaningless links...

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1667 on: September 01, 2015, 08:38:13 PM »
What is the reason for the uptick in asthma? I have coached soccer for many years. I don't recall when I started any kids using inhalers or having a hard time breathing during the game. Now it is all to common to see one or more kids per team using them or stopping the game for a child that has a breathing problem.
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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1668 on: September 01, 2015, 08:41:43 PM »
2. Last time i checked Mississippi was still part of USA. highest vax  rate in America Highest infant mortality
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/INFANT_MORTALITY_RATES_STATE_2010.pdf

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6230a3.htm?s_cid=mm6230a3_e#Tab1
As has been the case throughout this thread the "proofs" have been a raaya listor and once the data is looked at with thought it shows that there is no correlation. Here is a chart of the ranks of states in the 2 data sets linked. It shows how there is little to no correlation at all. It happens to be that numbers 1 and 50 are the same, but everything between is all over the place.

ETA: Another note is that the data sets he gave are from different years. The mortality rates are from 2010 while the vaccination rates are for kindergarteners starting school in 2011 or 2012. I used 2011. This may skew the data slightly, but a shown when comparing 2011 to 2012 does not change greatly.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 09:08:35 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1669 on: September 01, 2015, 08:49:46 PM »
I must admit this is entertaining but why do you guys waste your time you are literally screaming at a brick wall
I point out the stupidity of his numbers so that no one should think he is correct.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1670 on: September 01, 2015, 08:51:36 PM »
What is the reason for the uptick in asthma? I have coached soccer for many years. I don't recall when I started any kids using inhalers or having a hard time breathing during the game. Now it is all to common to see one or more kids per team using them or stopping the game for a child that has a breathing problem.
A possibility is that part of is it due to children with asthma not having joined sports teams until recently. I remember there being children in my class who had asthma but they did not really play sports.
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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1671 on: September 01, 2015, 09:13:05 PM »
What is the reason for the uptick in asthma? I have coached soccer for many years. I don't recall when I started any kids using inhalers or having a hard time breathing during the game. Now it is all to common to see one or more kids per team using them or stopping the game for a child that has a breathing problem.
Same question I have with peanut allergies. They seem much more prevalent.

Must be...

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1672 on: September 01, 2015, 09:29:58 PM »
That's an undisputed established fact
LOL again a reading comprehension issue

These are uncommon:
Uncommon (0.1% to 1%): Headache, somnolence, fatigue
These are rare:
Rare (less than 0.1%): Febrile seizures, hypersomnia, gait abnormality, tremor
Rare as you wrote means
less than .1% , = less than 4,000 cases per year 4 million anual
How much less? you tell me since you claim to have knowledge about the numbers ::)

Guillain-Barre does not fit into either of those categories. This means that in the clinical trials it was not reported at all. Instead it is in this category:
Postmarketing reports: Encephalitis, cerebrovascular accident, transverse myelitis, Guillain-Barré syndrome, Bell's palsy, ataxia, non-febrile seizures, aseptic meningitis, dizziness, paresthesia
What does that mean? It means that in tracking numbers reported by doctors (can't trust those) there have been cases reported and were rare enough to not have even shown up in the trials. It happens to be that the connection does make sense since varicella infection is a known cause of GB. In that case, by preventing cases of varicella the vaccine is causing there to be fewer cases of GB
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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1673 on: September 01, 2015, 09:54:02 PM »
What is the reason for the uptick in asthma? I have coached soccer for many years. I don't recall when I started any kids using inhalers or having a hard time breathing during the game. Now it is all to common to see one or more kids per team using them or stopping the game for a child that has a breathing problem.

Same question I have with peanut allergies. They seem much more prevalent.

On both of these things I have not found stats that go back many years. The available stats show some growth in these areas but not by that much. I would have to agree with this:

 
A possibility is that part of is it due to children with asthma not having joined sports teams until recently. I remember there being children in my class who had asthma but they did not really play sports.

People simply aren't ashamed of these things the way they used to be. The stigma around these things has been lifted.

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1674 on: September 01, 2015, 10:52:45 PM »
I point out the stupidity of his numbers so that no one should think he is correct.
Not worth wasting your time on anyone who will briefs anything he says, either

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1675 on: September 01, 2015, 11:18:44 PM »
LOL again a reading comprehension issue

These are uncommon:These are rare:Rare as you wrote meansHow much less? you tell me since you claim to have knowledge about the numbers ::)

Guillain-Barre does not fit into either of those categories. This means that in the clinical trials it was not reported at all. Instead it is in this category:What does that mean? It means that in tracking numbers reported by doctors (can't trust those) there have been cases reported and were rare enough to not have even shown up in the trials. It happens to be that the connection does make sense since varicella infection is a known cause of GB. In that case, by preventing cases of varicella the vaccine is causing there to be fewer cases of GB
Don't expect a reply, what you wrote makes a lot of sense, and shows how the anti-vax argument was in fact a great proof to vaccinate.

And I still didn't get the neurologist number because if I called him he would tell me people should vaccinate. Yet twisting his words is ok, as long as we don't verify them.
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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1676 on: September 01, 2015, 11:33:35 PM »
Not worth wasting your time on anyone who will briefs anything he says, either
I disagree. Not everyone is as turned off by his poor language skills as I am. They may see someone quoting things which at a glance look legitimate and be convinced. It does not take any more than simple reading comprehension to debunk everything he wrote under this name and under the name Thnik Twice. What he wrote about Mississippi is a great example. At first one may say that it is conclusive, but once you compare the complete data set you see that if anything it is conclusive that they are unrelated.
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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1677 on: September 02, 2015, 12:38:54 AM »
I read four pages of this thread to see if anyone mentioned the recent cases of chicken pox with the KC Royals.
1) Nothing mentioned.
2) Glad to see myself quoted at least once (even though it was a quote that happened to have a relevant chart that had nothing to do with what I said)
3) To Baryochai: I'm always looking for more info on both sides on this discussion, but it's not right to answer some of the things asked to you and not other Qs. What you may want to do when you aren't answering something is either to write that you're answering later, can't answer or don't want to answer. Being part of a discussion and ignoring some Q's can make one think that you have no answer, which I'm sure that you do.
4) Back to those Royal's. It's interesting that so far the only link to how the players were exposed was someone on the team getting the chicken pox vaccine.
5) Regardless, it's funny how chicken pox may end up having an impact on the 2015 season. If it ends up spreading through the team it could throw them a bit out of sync...

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1678 on: September 02, 2015, 12:40:55 AM »
Reb Moshe did NOT recommend cholov akum for bnei torah
No one holds cholov akum is kosher
If R' Moshe did not  recommend Cholov Stam for bnei torah why did his sons drink it?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1679 on: September 02, 2015, 01:13:44 AM »
4) Back to those Royal's. It's interesting that so far the only link to how the players were exposed was someone on the team getting the chicken pox vaccine.
Where did you get that from? I see they say that Escobar was vaccinated recently, but I haven't seen the suggestion that the other 2 contracted it because of him. At least one article suggests a different theory:
Quote from: http://www.kansascity.com/sports/mlb/kansas-city-royals/article33222444.html
The team’s general theory is Rios caught the infection from a child. Several members of the team have brought their children on the road with them during the summer.
I get the sense that you think this story might in some way show that you shouldn't vaccinate for chickenpox. Yet if the 2 players who have contracted chickenpox had been vaccinated, there'd be no story at all - no chicken pox. And it's likely that if Escobar hadn't vaccinated, he'd be out with chickenpox too.