PSA: New Pyramyid scheme circulating the jewish community

[simchatravel]

It's just against my principles to make money off the loss of others. Especially people I know.I don't know about any other programs, I was just commenting on this particular one. The 2 questions to ask to sniff out any PS are:
1. Do I have to pay money to "get in"
2. Do I make money by getting others to pay to "get in"

That usually cuts through all the smoke and mirrors they try to put up. They will always follow up with a "but...". By that time I'm long gone.

So I guess Dans Deals is a "pyramid scheme" because for specific credits their is annual fee to get in, and Dan's Deals gets people to sign up for credit cards through their website and they make money and get miles for doing so.What a great Ponzi scheme, right?!

Multiple Level Marketing/Network Marketing is spoken about very highly by Robert Kiyosaki "Rich Dad Poor Dad", numerous other authors, and is the reason why Warren Buffet bought the direct sales/network marketing company "Pampered Chef".
People unfortunately have all sorts of negative connotations because in many cases, the product is simply not one of value. In the case of WorldVentures - the product is amazing, the deals are exceptional, the training is stellar, the comp plan is quite impressive....and people who speak ill of it don't have the right info.

One could say that it's also a scam to travel the world for free using miles and upgrades and selling people credit cards on this site to fuel your free travel. That's why it's important to speak to intelligent people with the right info.

[moish]

btw what are any trave deals that are good? from the video it looked mostly like cruises

[Chaikel]

So I guess Dans Deals is a "pyramid scheme" because for specific credits their is annual fee to get in, and Dan's Deals gets people to sign up for credit cards through their website and they make money and get miles for doing so.What a great Ponzi scheme, right?!

Multiple Level Marketing/Network Marketing is spoken about very highly by Robert Kiyosaki "Rich Dad Poor Dad", numerous other authors, and is the reason why Warren Buffet bought the direct sales/network marketing company "Pampered Chef".
People unfortunately have all sorts of negative connotations because in many cases, the product is simply not one of value. In the case of WorldVentures - the product is amazing, the deals are exceptional, the training is stellar, the comp plan is quite impressive....and people who speak ill of it don't have the right info.

One could say that it's also a scam to travel the world for free using miles and upgrades and selling people credit cards on this site to fuel your free travel. That's why it's important to speak to intelligent people with the right info.

Thank you so much for clearly expressing your complete ignorance of Pyramid Schemes. Your post will certainly dissuade more people than I ever could. I'm tired of dissecting every point that one of you make (not to mention each one has already been answered), but you comparison to miles and CCs is priceless, and will surely speak for itself

[Dan]

Thank you so much for clearly expressing your complete ignorance of Pyramid Schemes. Your post will certainly dissuade more people than I ever could. I'm tired of dissecting every point that one of you make (not to mention each one has already been answered), but you comparison to miles and CCs is priceless, and will surely speak for itself

+1.
The only people that have more circular logic than MLM folk (and I do know that they are the most despised folk in the jewish communities here in CLE and PIT) are J for J's.

There's just no point in arguing.

[Chaikel]

Yup, I'm done.

You should seriously consider my PM. It's killing me that I didn't do more earlier on.

[Chaikel]

In honor of Erev 9Bav I just want to say, I have nothing against these people, just what they're doing

[ash]

i have friends that went into tens of MLM that (tried to recruit me ) and failed every single one ! not even one helped them

its a fast way for the guy on top to make easy cash including WB

[txtmax4]

Funny. I just got an email from a friend with a link to a video about ambit energy... yah....

[simchatravel]

The issur of lifnei eiver, isn't not to push a blind man

I love how frum you are, that somehow you don't consider it lifneir iver when you sign up people for credit cards that they can put an unlimited amount of debt onto and bring financial crises into their lives and the lives of their families. There are numerous Rabbanim that feel it's assur to even have a credit card because it's money that one doesn't have most of the time, and very often people lose their lives in credit card debt. Kol hakavod to you guys for the lifnei iver you do when it comes to credit cards but the high road you take of righteousness when it comes to network marketing with good products. I love your hypocrisy. IT's comical.

[aussiebochur]

I love how frum you are, that somehow you don't consider it lifneir iver when you sign up people for credit cards.

Who is the "you" that you refer too?
I believe people sign up themselves.

[yitzyle]

btw what are any trave deals that are good? from the video it looked mostly like cruises

Here's a sampling:
2 nights in a 5 star hotel in brussels for $140 for a couple (that's $70 pp).
3 nights in a 4 star hotel in prague for $200 for a couple (that's $100 pp).
3 nights in a 5 star in prague for $240 for a couple (that's $120 pp).

[yitzyle]

Who is the "you" that you refer too?
I believe people sign up themselves.

What I think Simchatravel meant, though I don't want to put words in his mouth, is that nobody is forced to join worldventures, not the dreamtrips membership and not to become a rep. Chaikel was saying that even presenting it to them is "lifnei eiver". So Simcha was asking what the difference is between that and DD, who presents credit card offers to people some of whom get into debt and Dan benefits from the referral.

Nice point SimchaTravel

[yitzyle]

And again. Just for the record, does anybody have any negative information about this MLM, or just MLMs in general. Because, so far, the only thing I have seen is that MLMs is a tool which can (and maybe even often) is used fraudulently.

But that does not mean that they are all bad.

Just ask Warren Buffet who owns three of them.

[aussiebochur]

What I think Simchatravel meant, though I don't want to put words in his mouth, is that nobody is forced to join worldventures, not the dreamtrips membership and not to become a rep. Chaikel was saying that even presenting it to them is "lifnei eiver". So Simcha was asking what the difference is between that and DD, who presents credit card offers to people some of whom get into debt and Dan benefits from the referral.

Nice point SimchaTravel

When you see a credit card, it is exactly that, a credit card. You borrow money and you have to pay back. If you can't afford it, don't get one.
Its not, get this card, make money, sign more people up, make more money.
I'm surprised you can't see the difference. Would you say a gamach is also oiver on lefnei eiver? Plenty of people borrow and can't pay back.

[Chaikel]

And again. Just for the record, does anybody have any negative information about this MLM, or just MLMs in general.

http://www.sao.mt.gov/news/20081117ButtePyramid.html

[yitzyle]

Its not, get this card, make money, sign more people up, make more money.

No. Instead Dan makes all the money for all the people who sign up through this site.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea and I think that Dan has done an amazing job creating this site. And he deserves to be rewarded for it. Just don't be naive enough to think that only people who can afford a credit card get one. Ultimately people are responsible for their own actions.

[aussiebochur]

No. Instead Dan makes all the money for all the people who sign up through this site.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea and I think that Dan has done an amazing job creating this site. And he deserves to be rewarded for it. Just don't be naive enough to think that only people who can afford a credit card get one. Ultimately people are responsible for their own actions.

Every single one of the cards on this site, the person signing up gains more then Dan does. I doubt you can say the same with any MLM.
Besides the fact that you don't need to use the links on this site, although I think its ill mannered for someone not too.
So, sorry, DD is not a pyramid of any type.

[Chaikel]

I really don't wanna post on this topic any more, but...
Frankly I wouldn't do business with a company that was investigated for fraud, even if insufficient proof was found, or the case was settled out of court.

Also I would think that you would have a moral and halachic obligation to notify all of you prospective recruits, that there was an investigation opened.

And another point. The way of a frum jew is to ask one's rabbi when one comes in contact with questionable business opportunities. Being that the overwhelming majority of these schemes are fraudulent, I would think that a well intending jew would ask his rav before, or at least before continuing, with a business like this one.

[moish]

Here's a sampling:
2 nights in a 5 star hotel in brussels for $140 for a couple (that's $70 pp).
3 nights in a 4 star hotel in prague for $200 for a couple (that's $100 pp).
3 nights in a 5 star in prague for $240 for a couple (that's $120 pp).

can you pick your own dates?

[yitzyle]

I really don't wanna post on this topic any more, but...
Frankly I wouldn't do business with a company that was investigated for fraud, even if insufficient proof was found, or the case was settled out of court.

So I guess you don't visit Israel because it has been accused of much worse than fraud...

Also I would think that you would have a moral and halachic obligation to notify all of you prospective recruits, that there was an investigation opened.

I'll do you one better. If there actually is any evidence of fraud I will cancel my membership.

But, to be honest, since the only thing you could find was an older than 1 and a half year old news update with inaccurate information in it, my guess is that, like the peace flotilla, snap judgments are harmful.

And another point. The way of a frum jew is to ask one's rabbi when one comes in contact with qhttp://www.dansdeals.com/forums/Smileys/default/embarrassed.gifuestionable business opportunities. Being that the overwhelming majority of these schemes are fraudulent, I would think that a well intending jew would ask his rav before, or at least before continuing, with a business like this one.

We can discuss hashkafic issues of how and when one is supposed to ask "daas torah" in person, if you like. But, suffice it to say, that I have consulted my rabbonim as to when I am to consult, and my rabbi doesn't seem to agree with you.