Author Topic: Davening on a Plane  (Read 4390 times)

Offline elikay

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Davening on a Plane
« on: July 20, 2010, 05:12:04 PM »
No! I'm not getting into the pros and cons, rather the Zmanim issue. Anyone here use the chai tables? I am noticing that they are not terribly accurate (I would guess +- 30 minutes), just wondering what do you do when you are stuck davening on a plane?

Offline steve2

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Re: Davening on a Plane
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2010, 05:27:02 PM »
 depends on which Carrier and to or from where Im flying. If its say CO or US or DL or LY no problem standing up and even having a minyan just make sure you wont be in the way of the FAs , so ask them beforehand.

If its say a flight where there wont be a minyan you can daven in your seat. Tefillin again depends on the Carrier and when you will be landing. So if I will be landing say way before Sunset I can put them on when I arrive at the Airport if need be, so I can simply remain seated if I feel thats the best option and put my tefillin on once back on teh ground. Now if I will have a tight connection and it will be after dark when I get to my final destination.I would speak with the FAs explain everything and the put them on so that way if any passenger gets restless with what Im doing the FAs are already keyed in about it

Offline Chaikel

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Re: Davening on a Plane
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2010, 05:39:44 PM »
depends on which Carrier and to or from where Im flying. If its say CO or US or DL or LY no problem standing up and even having a minyan just make sure you wont be in the way of the FAs , so ask them beforehand.
ManyPoskim Assur davening with a minyan on a plane, or even standing up (during davening).

Besides FA CH (which i realize is solved by asking) there are many other issues
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 05:44:02 PM by Chaikel »

Online A3

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Re: Davening on a Plane
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2010, 06:02:05 PM »
The OP to my understanding, was not asking correct or incorrect, one has to daven, he must daven by himself. to sit in ones seat and maybe get a few stares w/t bothering anyone, is not an excuse to miss a teffilah.
To answer the original Q. Look at the route b4 hand try in ur head to figure out the times a little bit, and try out a site like zmanim or something to see if the timing seems about rite, then if you r flying internationally, chances are the airplane is equipped with a movie channel that is a map of where the plane is at, so when u r say over Europe somewhere, check out wat ur calculations were and decide if that's correct, davening is something that should not be taken lightly, if you want to be machmir on the zmanin then sometimes it takes a lot of research. Good Luck

Offline elikay

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Re: Davening on a Plane
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2010, 10:42:18 PM »
The OP to my understanding, was not asking correct or incorrect, one has to daven, he must daven by himself. to sit in ones seat and maybe get a few stares w/t bothering anyone, is not an excuse to miss a teffilah.
To answer the original Q. Look at the route b4 hand try in ur head to figure out the times a little bit, and try out a site like zmanim or something to see if the timing seems about rite, then if you r flying internationally, chances are the airplane is equipped with a movie channel that is a map of where the plane is at, so when u r say over Europe somewhere, check out wat ur calculations were and decide if that's correct, davening is something that should not be taken lightly, if you want to be machmir on the zmanin then sometimes it takes a lot of research. Good Luck
Personally, I'd find it quite hard to guess, but what I find funny is when someone on the flight davens shachris about an hour before landing (when it says 7:00 on his EST watch) and arrival time is 4:30 Israeli time.

Offline YOSEF

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Re: Davening on a Plane
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2010, 10:50:13 PM »
I did a bit of research on the issue previously, and there are three things to take into account: what time zone you are in (in relation to the sun, not hours), the alt. of the plane, the flight plan.
The alt. isn't so hard, and using a quick calculation of flight time should give you a pretty good estimate of time zone, except that international flight plans very often go north, thus messing up ones easy calculation.  the websites that have zmanim usually do tell you thzt you should be machmir by at least 30 min, which when on a plane is not usually so hard to do, unless you are in the middle of a really great movie  ;)...

Offline elikay

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Re: Davening on a Plane
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2010, 11:14:46 PM »
Another problem seems to be, the fact that airlines tack on lots of time on either end to compensate for delays. So your 10:30 hour flight can be delayed for40 minutes and stil arrive early.....This affects the calculations (although the site mentioned points it out, I'm not convinced that its taken care of, all he says is that the difference in speed usually makes up for this difference).

Offline AsherO

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Re: Davening on a Plane
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2010, 11:15:28 PM »
No! I'm not getting into the pros and cons, rather the Zmanim issue. Anyone here use the chai tables? I am noticing that they are not terribly accurate (I would guess +- 30 minutes), just wondering what do you do when you are stuck davening on a plane?

It would be very hard for an algorithm calculating zmanim for flights to be thoroughly accurate, especially if it factors in altitude. The bigger problem is that you don't usually take off exactly on schedule, and simply adding the amount of time your flight was delayed by, won't be accurate (since you won't be at the same long./lat./alt. as you'd have been had you taken off on time).
Quote from: עירובין לד בשינוי
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Davening on a Plane
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2010, 11:15:49 PM »
That's funny, we just posted the same idea at the same time.
Quote from: עירובין לד בשינוי
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Offline elikay

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Re: Davening on a Plane
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2010, 01:18:21 AM »
That's funny, we just posted the same idea at the same time.
:)

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Davening on a Plane
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2010, 04:36:51 AM »
The last 100 longhaul flights I took, all had a screen with a map and current position.

You can ask a FA to ask the pilot, they usually do it gladly.

Flying say from HEL to HKG will be over the northpole, where in the winter you don't have a day, and in the summer no night.

You might want to have very strong sunglasses, to look from the window to the sun, and catch a maariv, for the 10 minutes or so where the sun is under (not dark), and start shacharis after that.

Once again, a pilot might be able to help with it.

Problematic are also the dateline* as there is a machloikes on where it it. 

* the halachic dateline hasn't got anything to do with the regular dateline, which got decided that it start at '0' from Greenwich, UK. A while ago it was in Paris.

Some hold it to be on the east coast of China, meaning stepping into the sea in China puts you in another day.
Others hold that the dateline is on american samoa.

Someone leaving early afternoon on sunday to fly to australia, (or late afternoon/evening to japan), have according to some poskim been flying a while on shabbos.
That would require you to make havdolo.

There are other poskim that hold that you can have maximum one shabbos per 7 days.

Another problem would be that if NOT flying leDvar mitsve, you cannot commence a travel after wednesday which won't arrive before shabbos.

Pretty complicated.

Offline Shlomi

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Re: Davening on a Plane
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2010, 06:30:53 AM »

* the halachic dateline hasn't got anything to do with the regular dateline, which got decided that it start at '0' from Greenwich, UK. A while ago it was in Paris.

Some hold it to be on the east coast of China, meaning stepping into the sea in China puts you in another day.
Others hold that the dateline is on american samoa.

Someone leaving early afternoon on sunday to fly to australia, (or late afternoon/evening to japan), have according to some poskim been flying a while on shabbos.
That would require you to make havdolo.

There are other poskim that hold that you can have maximum one shabbos per 7 days.

Another problem would be that if NOT flying leDvar mitsve, you cannot commence a travel after wednesday which won't arrive before shabbos.

Pretty complicated.

According to Chabad - the Halachic dateline IS the international one.

Just making clear.

Offline steve2

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Re: Davening on a Plane
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2010, 07:47:02 AM »
According to Chabad - the Halachic dateline IS the international one.

Just making clear.

 which is OK if a person is Chabad but doesnt help if a person isnt I understand from a shiur I attened in LA where they have worse problems headingto TLV since most of the flights from the WC goes North of the Artic Circle, which brings up many aproblem one doesnt get hit with out of NY except to Asia at times

Offline steve2

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Re: Davening on a Plane
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2010, 07:48:50 AM »
 also planes dont always follow the routing they were originally going to due to weather and traffic. So numerous times the map had us over 1 Country while we werent there at all and the times being shown as to how much longer were also way off

 Ive been on flights that were still in the air although the screen showed we landed, and we landed with the screen still showing we still have time to our destination. But neither was more than an hour off from what I recall. Just not an exact science.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 08:29:53 AM by steve2 »

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Davening on a Plane
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2010, 08:08:06 AM »
According to Chabad - the Halachic dateline IS the international one.

Just making clear.

an additional benefit for those who are (becoming) chabad.

I guess its to make it easier for the shluchim.  ;D