Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 43902 times)

Offline dbel23

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #90 on: January 03, 2014, 02:03:17 PM »
@txtmx4 if you do find that source for the heterei iska, please share!

Online skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #91 on: January 03, 2014, 02:13:32 PM »
@txtmx4 if you do find that source for the heterei iska, please share!
There are 5 examples in section 2 of this page, though txtmax's example is not one of them.

Offline Dan

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #92 on: January 03, 2014, 02:15:46 PM »
I would call up the bank notifying them that someone stole my credit card and charged $100k
Most cards verify that the charge is legit at that spending level.
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Online churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #93 on: January 03, 2014, 02:17:18 PM »
Since when do vendors accept CC at that level anyway?

Offline meshugener

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #94 on: January 03, 2014, 02:21:21 PM »
Most cards verify that the charge is legit at that spending level.
Not all of them charge 100k in one shot. Its like $5-10k in one transaction, which doesnt raise any flags IME.
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Offline whYME

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #95 on: January 03, 2014, 02:34:56 PM »
Not necessarily are the charges legit even if the AH agreed to them.
For example, there was a story (with a DDFer) where he allowed the scammer to by goods with the card but the scammer used it to get cash instead.

Offline dans fan

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #96 on: January 03, 2014, 03:01:37 PM »
a wise man once advised me, "only lend money that you can afford to give as tzedakah". although for scammers or biz that goes sour the tzedakah angel wont help
i heard that the satmar rav (rabainu yoel i think not very familiar with the dynasty) used to say when a minhag is against halacha what do you do " a minhag is stronger than halacha" , look around the halacha is if you borrow money you must pay back and the minhag is not to
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 03:15:05 PM by dans fan »

Offline dans fan

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #97 on: January 03, 2014, 03:11:02 PM »
maybe a little off topic, two points on above discussion
as far as being repayed by scammers or risky/wild transactions, some (only some) cases fall into the klal of heniach maosav al keren hatzvi, most cases dont but being that you are the motzi it can be difficult to get your money back in bais din (its another reason not to lend s/o money you cant evan win in b'd)
borrowing from a credit card many would say he never actually borrowed from you but directly from the bank (this does have ribis ramifications ) and therefore he owes them money and not you , the fact that you are left with the bill, bad credit, interest, ect would be grama or garmi. just another reason why you may never see your money back

Offline Yungerman

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #98 on: January 03, 2014, 04:32:42 PM »
maybe a little off topic, two points on above discussion
as far as being repayed by scammers or risky/wild transactions, some (only some) cases fall into the klal of heniach maosav al keren hatzvi, most cases dont but being that you are the motzi it can be difficult to get your money back in bais din (its another reason not to lend s/o money you cant evan win in b'd)
borrowing from a credit card many would say he never actually borrowed from you but directly from the bank (this does have ribis ramifications ) and therefore he owes them money and not you , the fact that you are left with the bill, bad credit, interest, ect would be grama or garmi. just another reason why you may never see your money back

Who holds like that?!? All the modern poskim learn that borrowing someone's cc is like borrowing directly from the lender, not the bank, hence Ribbis accrued cannot be paid.

Online skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #99 on: January 04, 2014, 08:44:43 PM »
Who holds like that?!? All the modern poskim learn that borrowing someone's cc is like borrowing directly from the lender, not the bank, hence Ribbis accrued cannot be paid.
And the more important ramification is that since the borrower has a chov to the lender and not the bank, there's no grama or garmi, it's a direct chov that should be collectible in beis din (assuming you can prove that the chov exists).

Online churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #100 on: January 04, 2014, 11:38:25 PM »
Who holds like that?!? All the modern poskim learn that borrowing someone's cc is like borrowing directly from the lender, not the bank, hence Ribbis accrued cannot be paid.
Not true. See relevant discussion here: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24911.msg407377#msg407377

Offline Yungerman

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #101 on: January 05, 2014, 12:38:25 AM »
Not true. See relevant discussion here: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24911.msg407377#msg407377

You're bringing a page of forum discussion with hardly any sources to disprove the consensus of poskim who hold that using someone's credit card is defined as borrowing from them with all its halachic ramifications?!

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #102 on: January 05, 2014, 01:03:57 AM »
You're bringing a page of forum discussion with hardly any sources to disprove the consensus of poskim who hold that using someone's credit card is defined as borrowing from them with all its halachic ramifications?!
On the other hand, you're bringing a "consensus" out of arguably thin air.

Read the discussion, it has a pretty thorough analysis of the technical differences between a CC and a check/dc in halacha.
You check the current "modern" sources. Look in seforim on hilchos ribis, kidushin, tzedaka, mishloach Monos etc. Let us know what you find!

(In a Beis din for sure your consensus wouldn't hold up. Its neged hasvara vehametzius imho)

Offline Yungerman

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #103 on: January 05, 2014, 01:49:04 AM »
On the other hand, you're bringing a "consensus" out of arguably thin air.

Read the discussion, it has a pretty thorough analysis of the technical differences between a CC and a check/dc in halacha.
You check the current "modern" sources. Look in seforim on hilchos ribis, kidushin, tzedaka, mishloach Monos etc. Let us know what you find!

(In a Beis din for sure your consensus wouldn't hold up. Its neged hasvara vehametzius imho)
By "modern" I obviously was referring to rabbonim moirei hoiro'o who wrote about the subject of credit cards since their relatively recent reception into society.  Regarding ribbis, the consensus of those seforim are indeed that only the account holder is borrowing directly from the card issuer, not one who's borrowing it from the account holder. In that case, halacha views it that the lender/account-holder borrows from bank and then subsequently gives the money to the borrower. If the borrower doesn't pay on time or only pays the minimum payment, thereby causing interest to accrue, he isn't even allowed to pay directly to the bank the interest.

Regarding bais din, most rabbonim sitting on one would pasken as above.


Offline Ergel

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #104 on: January 05, 2014, 01:52:29 AM »
On the other hand, you're bringing a "consensus" out of arguably thin air.

Read the discussion, it has a pretty thorough analysis of the technical differences between a CC and a check/dc in halacha.
You check the current "modern" sources. Look in seforim on hilchos ribis, kidushin, tzedaka, mishloach Monos etc. Let us know what you find!

(In a Beis din for sure your consensus wouldn't hold up. Its neged hasvara vehametzius imho)
Do you have a single posek who corroborates what you said in that thread?
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