Author Topic: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues  (Read 8751 times)

Offline shauly

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Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« on: March 25, 2014, 06:28:49 AM »
I'm dealing with a crooked landlord. We signed a one year lease about 7 months ago, and we are now leaving Israel for a few months. I notified my landlord, and found new tenants to take over the lease. After the new tenant signed the lease, the landlord tells me that there is a 900 shekel fee to turn over the apartment to a new tenant. I was never informed of this fee, and it's nowhere in the contract. I'm young, and this is my first apartment, so he is trying to squeeze as much money out of me as he is able to. At first I wasn't sure, but after speaking to some people everyone told me that he is a thief and that I should not pay him.

The problem is that he has my deposit, 2 months rent (8400 shekel) in cash. My neighbor recently had someone take over his lease, the landlord tried the same shtick, my neighbor refused, and the landlord is now withholding his deposit. Additionally, he went around his apartment, found a thousand things "wrong", and is demanding payment for them. My neighbor is taking him to court to settle the issue.

I'm leaving the country in two weeks. I have no time to deal with a court case, or to fight with him. Here are my options, as I see them:

I've considered just paying him the money, because as uncomfortable as it will be to lose 900 shekel, I'd much prefer that to losing the whole 8400.

Someone suggested that I get a letter from a lawyer saying that it's theft and that I am not obligated to pay him. I think that would just start a whole legal process, that I want to avoid.

Another person suggested something far sneakier. My landlord told me that he will just take the 900 out of the deposit before he gives it back to me. For some reason, he told me that I could also just give him a check for the amount. Assuming he still will take a check, I could give him a check and then cancel it before he can cash it. That way I'd have my deposit, and he will leave thinking he has my money. When he calls me to find out what the deal is, I can stall until I'm out of the country. The issue with that is that in addition to the 900, there is another 900 shekel that I legitimately owe him for a prepaid electric bill and vaad habayit fees. The check would have to include that amount to avoid his suspicion, but I have no right to not pay him that money. I asked my rabbi, and he told me that I need to ask someone more experienced in this area than him, so if I decide I want to take this route then I need to ask a shaila first.

The landlord is coming tomorrow. He is chiloni, so beis din isn't an option.

Any advice?

Offline satturn

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2014, 10:49:21 AM »
its not so simple to stop a Israeli check. Dont give him anything until you have those 2 months rent back in hand, I would not trust him about that either.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2014, 10:52:49 AM »
You're being very optimistic about getting those 8400 back.

I think you have to hire a lawyer and threaten criminal complaint. It will cost you more than 900 but you'll make sure to get the 8400.

I'm sure if you PM Bispro he'll have a good lawyer for you.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline shauly

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2014, 11:24:33 AM »
its not so simple to stop a Israeli check. Dont give him anything until you have those 2 months rent back in hand, I would not trust him about that either.

I only use the account to pay my rent. I put money in it the day before the rent is due, and that's the only time it has money. I could always just let the check bounce, the bounce fees have got to be less than 900 shekel.

The problem is that he won't give me back the full 8400 unless I give him a check. Otherwise he is just going to deduct it.

 
You're being very optimistic about getting those 8400 back.

I think you have to hire a lawyer and threaten criminal complaint. It will cost you more than 900 but you'll make sure to get the 8400.

I'm sure if you PM Bispro he'll have a good lawyer for you.

I feel like as long as he thinks I'm complying with him and paying the 900 he will give me back the deposit.. I could be wrong. If the only option to get out of it is hiring a lawyer, I'd rather just pay him I think.

Thanks so much for the input guys.

Offline shauly

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2014, 06:33:44 AM »
Update:

This morning, I checked the bank and saw that he hadn't cashed the check for my last month's rent. So when he came, I didn't put up a fight, I let him take out the money I "owed" him, smiled, and shook his hand. The second he left, I went to the bank and withdrew the rent. So hopefully I have a few days until he cashes it and sees that it bounced. When he does I will kindly tell him that I am more than happy to pay my rent minus the 900 shekel that he stole, and nothing more.

All in all I think it turned out pretty well.

Thanks for the advice.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2014, 08:02:32 AM »
He gave you the 8400 back?

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline shauly

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2014, 08:54:06 AM »
He gave you the 8400 back?

He took out the 900, and then 940 that I actually owed him for electricity and vaad habayit. So now I'm up 3300 shek on him, so he can choose to either take that or nothing.

My neighbor is actually suing him, and it turns out that he used a fake teudat zehut number on the contracts. It's pretty clear by now that we aren't dealing with someone yashar.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2014, 09:01:00 AM »
You again didnt say wether or not he gave you the 8400 back...

I'm guessing he did

My neighbor is actually suing him, and it turns out that he used a fake teudat zehut number on the contracts. It's pretty clear by now that we aren't dealing with someone yashar.
Check the tabu and make sure the guy actually owns the place (yes I know first hand of impersonator cases). If he doesn't, you probably don't have to pay him the rent at all.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Drago

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2014, 09:07:08 AM »
You can also report him to the tax authority on suspicion of his not properly paying taxes on the rental income...

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2014, 09:08:06 AM »
You can also report him to the tax authority on suspicion of his not properly paying taxes on the rental income...
He should consult with a posek though, that sounds like Mesirah to me
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline rots5

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2014, 09:12:50 AM »
He took out the 900, and then 940 that I actually owed him for electricity and vaad habayit. So now I'm up 3300 shek on him, so he can choose to either take that or nothing.

My neighbor is actually suing him, and it turns out that he used a fake teudat zehut number on the contracts. It's pretty clear by now that we aren't dealing with someone yashar.
What neighborhood

Did you tell the next guy?
If you have any questions please search and then ask. PM me for detailed help.

Offline satturn

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2014, 12:06:26 PM »
As a help to the public, maybe spread the word that this guy is a thief so people don't take his apartment in the future.

Offline shalomh

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2014, 08:10:44 PM »
Update:

This morning, I checked the bank and saw that he hadn't cashed the check for my last month's rent. So when he came, I didn't put up a fight, I let him take out the money I "owed" him, smiled, and shook his hand. The second he left, I went to the bank and withdrew the rent. So hopefully I have a few days until he cashes it and sees that it bounced. When he does I will kindly tell him that I am more than happy to pay my rent minus the 900 shekel that he stole, and nothing more.

All in all I think it turned out pretty well.

Thanks for the advice.

please make sure you dont have "minus" on your account. most israeli accts can go into overdraft to cover a check and that will ruin everything, also make sure that him having a check of yours made out to his name does not entitle him to that cash from you in a court of law no matter if you claim he stole it

Online TimT

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2014, 01:23:01 AM »
Your rabbi told you to ask someone more experienced ? Isn't it his job to be " more experienced " ? At least you've come to the right place.

Offline AnonymousUser

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2014, 01:26:42 AM »
Your rabbi told you to ask someone more experienced ? Isn't it his job to be " more experienced " ? At least you've come to the right place.
??? Not every Rabbi is an expert in Choshen Mishpat.

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2014, 01:35:07 AM »
??? Not every Rabbi is an expert in Choshen Mishpat.
well, they should be. The most common day to day problems involve choshen mishpat.

Offline notanonymous

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2014, 04:32:04 AM »
well, they should be. The most common day to day problems involve choshen mishpat.
Call a Bais Din.

A local Rav typically knows yoreh dayah and orach chaim.  There are chosen mishpat chaburas that learn for 10+ years for smicha.  It is just not practical.

Offline notanonymous

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2014, 04:33:20 AM »
well, they should be. The most common day to day problems involve choshen mishpat.
Although they are very important shailos, go sit in while a rav hears shailos, I think you will find that is not the case.

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2014, 10:14:33 AM »
Although they are very important shailos, go sit in while a rav hears shailos, I think you will find that is not the case.
Maybe not for everyone. But for working men it definitely is the most common.

Offline Saver2000

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Re: Need Advice: Israeli Landlord Issues
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2014, 10:20:58 AM »
well, they should be. The most common day to day problems involve choshen mishpat.
-1
Not for the average household.

Maybe not for everyone. But for working men it definitely is the most common.
And there are specific rabbonim that deal with that.  Like notanonymous said,  the average rov has simcha for yoreh dayah,  and orach chaim.  Not choshen mishpat.