Tanya Shiur

[Freddie]

So you start by saying- I have a need for fulfillment. But I know (even if I can't feel it) that my need for fulfillment doesn't really register is the big scheme of things. So I use my need to fulfill myself as a tool to effect change on the global (universal) and impersonal scale.

And now I see why the Alter Rebbe at first was going to start Tanya with Shaar HaYichud v'HaEmunah. First you need to understand (not just have faith but truly intellectually understand) that there is nothing but Hashem. Then you can start looking at yourself.

[churnbabychurn]

What makes someone a beinoni that precludes him from being perfect?
How does that shtim with כל אחד מישראל יכול להיות כמשה?
IIRC, it seems from the Mesilas Yesharim that it's possible to reach the level of not having taivos, although it's extremely hard.

Im thinking that those of us who are accustomed to the logical progression of Mesilas yeshorim etc just won't get Tanya...

I'm just reading this thread and my head is spinning from the complexity of the philosophy going on here.

 Is it even supposed to be a practical 'mussar' sefer or is it a mystical work about the world order?

[Achas Veachas]

Im thinking that those of us who are accustomed to the logical progression of Mesilas yeshorim etc just won't get Tanya...

I'm just reading this thread and my head is spinning from the complexity of the philosophy going on here. Is it even supposed to be a practical 'mussar' sefer or is it a mystical work about the world order?

To be honest, I do learn Tanya and my head is spinning...

[wayfe]

Well obviously this thread isn't following much of any kind of order- it's all over the place.

[wayfe]

Im thinking that those of us who are accustomed to the logical progression of Mesilas yeshorim etc just won't get Tanya...

I'm just reading this thread and my head is spinning from the complexity of the philosophy going on here.

 Is it even supposed to be a practical 'mussar' sefer or is it a mystical work about the world order?

Tanya is actually extremely logical. The way I see it (and I may be waaay off, as I'm not Lubavitch and have hardly learned Tanya at all) is that it's a practical way of life based on philosophy. The 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

[Freddie]

Im thinking that those of us who are accustomed to the logical progression of Mesilas yeshorim etc just won't get Tanya...

I'm just reading this thread and my head is spinning from the complexity of the philosophy going on here.

 Is it even supposed to be a practical 'mussar' sefer or is it a mystical work about the world order?

CBC, you are correct. It is not just a new limud. It is a totally new perspective or vantage point. It requires rethinking yesodos. My only question is whether to try to teach the yesodos before teaching the practical application or to use the practical application as a way of arriving experientially at the yesodos.

Anyway, you touched upon a real paradox when asking is it supposed to be a "pratical 'musar' sefer or a mystical work about the world order." It's a brilliant and sensitive question. The answer is, like I was getting at, you can't just plug it into the framework of a Mesilas Yesharim or Nefesh HaChayim. They're different operating systems. And yet, Tanya is practical. Mystical and practical? Yes, that is probably a good way to sum up Chabad chasidus in three words.

To be honest, I do learn Tanya and my head is spinning...

Cool! Then we've accomplished something already!

Well obviously this thread isn't following much of any kind of order- it's all over the place.

I'm keeping track. When it gets off topic, I'll speak up. So far, we're doing pretty good.

Tanya is actually extremely logical. The way I see it (and I may be waaay off, as I'm not Lubavitch and have hardly learned Tanya at all) is that it's a practical way of life based on philosophy. The 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

Correct, as I told CBC above.

[wayfe]

I'm keeping track. When it gets off topic, I'll speak up. So far, we're doing pretty good.

That's the problem with Jewish Philosophy- everything is interrelated and connected. There is no beginning and no end. You can simple take a stab at any philosophical issue and you'll end up having to cover every other major issue that has been debated for centuries.

We started with the idea of Perfection, then the Free Will/ Predestination debate was brought up, then we're talking about the mystic vs. physical and practical.

Maybe we start with a bit of text and go on from there?

[Vosizderneias]

A big yesond that was touched upon is perspective of tanya vs. mussar sfarim (which I've learned both of) that can answer a lot of questions,
while mussar sfarim as a whole are strategies of individuals to sharpening ones character to better serve hashem (sort of like hinduism and buddhas journey through the 49 levels of middos, friends with a monk from my thailand travels )
Tanya approaches from an entirely different angle, instead trying to perfect oneself, a person must arduously work to realize the oneness of hashem which will by default better the person
Then the question of failing and being turned off from serving automatically drops, once a person realizes that theres a purpose in creation way beyond achieving a status, a person will always look forward and stay inspired.
Make sense?

[Sport]

A big yesond that was touched upon is perspective of tanya vs. mussar sfarim (which I've learned both of) that can answer a lot of questions,
while mussar sfarim as a whole are strategies of individuals to sharpening ones character to better serve hashem (sort of like hinduism and buddhas journey through the 49 levels of middos, friends with a monk from my thailand travels )
Tanya approaches from an entirely different angle, instead trying to perfect oneself, a person must arduously work to realize the oneness of hashem which will by default better the person
Then the question of failing and being turned off from serving automatically drops, once a person realizes that theres a purpose in creation way beyond achieving a status, a person will always look forward and stay inspired.
Make sense?

Sorry not really, first of all mussar seforim are not just self help guides: they too are founded on recognizing the oneness of hashem. Though some more than others.
Also, I don't fully understand how just comprehending the oneness of hashem helps one become a Better person. It doesn't even provide a definition of what a better person is, let alone how to become one. I'm not referring to a step by step guide, just conceptually. Unless comprehending hashems oneness means chapping that hashem encompasses all that is good so if you want to learn what is "good" try to understand he's ways. Which in that case is no different than mussar.

[ganizzy]

There Alot of different concepts in tanya.
To go back to the discussion of achieving perfection.  In perek alef it discusses that there is 2 meaning to the word tzaddik.  There is the term that everyone uses,  and then the literal meaning - someone who absolutely conquered their yetzer hara. It doesn't even have a voice.  The beinoni has a bit of an internal struggle with the yetzer hora but never in actions.  Halevai we can attain the level of the beinoni.  It is so high,  that's why Rabba thought he was a beinoni and not a tzaddik.

In chapter 32 the alter Rebbe discusses ahavas yisrael. If we think of the body as secondary and the soul as the ikkar. And we realize that everyone has a soul,  everyone is equal,  we can live them based on that.

Getting upset is yeshus

Then off course the discussions on the 2 souls and on the 10 sefiros and the 4 levels of the world,  how Hashem allowed hos shechina to descend.  About kelipos and what can be elevated

[Freddie]

Great comments, everyone!!!

[Vosizderneias]

Sorry not really, first of all mussar seforim are not just self help guides: they too are founded on recognizing the oneness of hashem. Though some more than others.
Also, I don't fully understand how just comprehending the oneness of hashem helps one become a Better person. It doesn't even provide a definition of what a better person is, let alone how to become one. I'm not referring to a step by step guide, just conceptually. Unless comprehending hashems oneness means chapping that hashem encompasses all that is good so if you want to learn what is "good" try to understand he's ways. Which in that case is no different than mussar.

a person is divided between his animalistic inclination and g-dly inclination. the goal is to direct the animal to yearn for hashem by showing that all of their natural tendencies pail in comparison to the greatness of hashem, ta'amu urau, ki tov hashem.

[AnonymousUser]

Bump. @Freddie, what happened to this thread, it seems to have died down.

[Sport]

Bump. @Freddie, what happened to this thread, it seems to have died down.

it takes us Tanya noobs a few weeks to digest all this .

[Pesach]

That's a great do meetup how much real connection could we have with each other based solely on cc points?  A dial in phone conference would be great and no cc points ques should be asked

[yitrap]

Similar idea has discussed before. TimT?

[TimT]

Similar idea has discussed before. TimT?

Tanya Shiur

Or perhaps you mean this

[Mikeoracle]

I'm sort of replying to the original thread discussion below.
I have had an interest for a while in understanding Chassidus and what The Tanya teaches, (although I never learned Tanya) and I recently found a 5 part series on Youtube given by R' YY Jacobson that I felt was very informative and mind opening. Especially for a "non-Chabad" outsider like myself.
Here are the links for anyone who is interested;

Part 1-

&t=1s
Part 2-

&t=12s
Part 3-

&t=3565s
Part 4-

&t=250s
Part 5-

&t=7s

[wayfe]

To me, one of the most intriguing parts of Chassidus is the way we look at the physical- objects and actions. That the deepest truths can be found in the lowliest of places. That source of the body is higher than the soul.

What is the fine line between understanding the meaning of this and not reveling in the body and the physical over the spiritual?