Author Topic: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?  (Read 29520 times)

Offline chuchem

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2014, 07:41:26 AM »
Okay everyone just get a handle. No one sold miles, no one bought miles. The miles are non transferable as per BA's legally binding T&C, and most if not all other mileage currencies.  You don't even own your own miles as per the same.  You may have certain rights as the accountholder but that's about it. If, in a mileage sale one side decides to screw over the other, the injured party would have no remedy by courts.

So everyone stop hocking with קנין, מקח טעות, אונאה,  זוטו של ים, אוא"ו.  Clearly you want to keep your word and as you got $ you won't just run off with the miles, but this should definitely be subject to the norms of the industry.

One more thing - if your wife had the account before marriage it would be נכסי מלוג and you'd own a קנין פירות


Your location explains it all

Offline sky121

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2014, 07:52:36 AM »
Even if the miles aren't his, he should be able to take back the account according to the buyers "terms"- change the password etc.
It's your job to contact your buyer.
He should contact his buyer- he has to be able to tell you that you can once again take hold of your account and not wait another year in addition to the time you've waited already.

I don't think that is a fair request on his part.
Honestly I think it's his problem to have to deal with it when the time comes. The problem is that it wasn't his business to tell you what he did with the miles. He bought them, he said they would be used within 2 months or  a bit longer and they weren't.  It shouldn't be the consumers problem.
If someone bought your car from you and then resold it and you left your garage open so they would come pick it up within the time discussed... would you feel it wrong to then start locking your garage after you've waited more than the time discussed already for it to be picked up? And after contacting the guy you sold your car to?
Some of you might answer yes, others no. Again, just a thought.


Again I'm not saying you should change the password and I am definitely not saying you should use the miles. Just sharing some thoughts.

And there is nothing wrong with just trying to help your buyer out and wait so that no problem arises. But I don't know that he is obligated to not change the password etc.

If you do end up going to a Rav please share his response.



« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 08:04:08 AM by sky121 »
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Offline Ergel

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2014, 08:23:00 AM »
I don't get why not just email the buyer and tell him he forgot to use his miles?
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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2014, 08:43:39 AM »
Your location explains it all
:o After your whole self righteous rant you just go take a backhanded swipe at what is, with all its possible chesronos, unquestionably the biggest makom torah in America, probably without even really reading what he wrote? Speaks volumes about you.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Name Changed

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2014, 09:02:53 AM »
I don't get why not just email the buyer and tell him he forgot to use his miles?
OP want to keep them.

I want to point out that anyone that was saying expiring miles are like Zuta Shel Yam, I believe it is not comparable. Miles could be reinstated (for a fee, or possible for free) therefore they can not be rendered useless a moment before they expire. If anyone asks a Rav this point has to be made clear.

I still believe that there is no Question at all, and the miles do not belong to account holder once sold.

For all those that are saying that a moment before expiring account holder could use them, what would you say in the reverse case of a broker using your miles (that wasn't sold to him) a moment before they expire??
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 09:13:19 AM by Name Changed »

Offline doodley

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2014, 09:11:33 AM »
there is ways to reinstate accounts    and being that its  his points because you sold it to him!(assuming you sold him all the points in account) and whenever he realizes he may know how to reinstate it  so you may as well be a nice guy and tell him about them

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2014, 09:15:22 AM »
Does he have a right to do things to your account to reinstate the points?
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Offline chuchem

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2014, 09:27:51 AM »
:o After your whole self righteous rant you just go take a backhanded swipe at what is, with all its possible chesronos, unquestionably the biggest makom torah in America, probably without even really reading what he wrote? Speaks volumes about you.
By the way I was joking....

Offline chuchem

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2014, 09:28:42 AM »
Anyway, why just not be honest and returning it, without going through lomdus why you might be able to keep it. Do you also use all this lomdus to find chumres?!

Offline alpicone

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2014, 09:47:07 AM »
Amazing how people can rationalize anything...

If it bothers you so much that someone else's miles are so easy for you to take, then call the broker and ask him to use it before you lose your self control.

Offline Alexsei

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2014, 09:55:09 AM »
IMHO when i sell i wouldn't want the broker selling to a 2nd broker at all..... if i have trust in this broker does not mean i trust the 2nd broker.

And maybe its i good idea for those selling to explicitly state in the communication by when the miles should be used
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2014, 10:01:04 AM »
For everyone stating that there is no question (in either direction), please state who you have yadin yadin smicha from. If you want to say that you personally have strong ethical feelings one way or another on this, that's one thing. But if you want to say it's not even a question halachically, you should probably explain why.

I have no idea what the actual psak would be, and I think it's a very interesting shaila. Personally, I would probably change the password but not use the account at all. Tell the Jewish broker to inform the non-Jewish broker that the points are still there and he (the non-Jewish broker) should contact you for your info if he's ready to use the miles, or at least give you a reasonable timeframe by which they'll be used.

Offline HolyNyc

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2014, 10:05:52 AM »
Okay everyone just get a handle. No one sold miles, no one bought miles. The miles are non transferable as per BA's legally binding T&C, and most if not all other mileage currencies. 

If, in a mileage sale one side decides to screw over the other, the injured party would have no remedy by courts
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Offline Dan

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2014, 10:07:09 AM »
In general these things should have terms set up at the time of sale.

-How much time to use the miles?
-Is the AH cc included?
-Can the broker resell the account?
-Can the broker add miles?
-Is the account being sold or just some of the miles?
Etc.
Make these things clear and these issues won't come up.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2014, 10:15:07 AM »
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Offline Alexsei

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #75 on: November 11, 2014, 10:15:52 AM »
In general these things should have terms set up at the time of sale.

-How much time to use the miles?
-Is the AH cc included?
-Can the broker resell the account?
-Can the broker add miles?
-Is the account being sold or just some of the miles?
Etc.
Make these things clear and these issues won't come up.
These weren't lasting 6 pages until recently....
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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #76 on: November 11, 2014, 10:23:28 AM »
Talk about


Numbers are numbers. Do have any candidates which come close? Don't see anything self righteous about that.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline sb5917

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #77 on: November 11, 2014, 10:36:36 AM »
i once sold miles to ff***** he booked a ticket and then canceled and never rebooked so when he closed down and owed me money i changed passward to recover some of my money
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 10:55:25 AM by sb5917 »

Offline DoGo

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #78 on: November 11, 2014, 09:09:56 PM »
Did it strike anyone to ask, who gave a right for the broker to resell it??

For all you brokers (or brothers of brokers) out there, we can smell you out from your curt "for sure the buyers" "period" answers...

Offline MEIR613

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Re: Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?
« Reply #79 on: November 11, 2014, 09:29:36 PM »
Did it strike anyone to ask, who gave a right for the broker to resell it??

For all you brokers (or brothers of brokers) out there, we can smell you out from your curt "for sure the buyers" "period" answers...
When I buy your car, I can't resell it to whoever I want :P