Sold miles, broker never used them, what's their status?

[Traveler718]

I have an unusual mileage question. About a year ago I sold a larger number of airline miles to a Jewish broker, who paid me at the time. I now noticed a year later that they're still in the account. I thought that maybe I didn't really sell them, and that if I did and he forgot about them, it's an issue of ta'us Yisrael, so I called to clarify. The Jewish broker said that I did sell the miles to them, and they resold them to a non-Jewish broker, who paid them in full.

I asked how long do I have to keep the miles and password intact for, and if at a certain point I can assume they were forgotten about, or that it's a ta'us akum. The Jewish broker doesn't want to jeopardize his relationship with either side, so he told me to wait another year and then call him back if they're still there.

I realize that ethically I could be nice and bring the mistake to their attention, but I first want to know what my obligations/rights are. What is the status of these miles, both legally and halachically? Who owns them now/1 year from now/10 years from now? Is there a point at which I can assume they were forgotten about and use them? If so, does that point depend on what I'm told by the Jewish broker I sold them to, meaning could they be mine now even though he didn't want me to use them, or could they not be mine in a year even if he tells me at that point I can have them? And does it make a difference if the Jewish broker said that the place he sold them to has since changed management?

Also, independent of the miles themselves, how long do I have to keep the temporary password on the account? Even if the miles aren't mine, is there a problem at this point to switch the password, and if the miles are remembered and they can't access the account, they can come to me at that point?

[sky121]

Unfortunately things aren't so black and white. On one hand you sold the points and put no time limit on them towards the buyer. On the other most brokers will tell you (IMO) that it's understood that they won't be holding the account for years.

I think at this point the miles are still not yours.

What miles are they? Will they expire ?

[Chapshnell]

Murphys law is that as soon as you use them the guy will log into your account looking for them

[Traveler718]

Miles are BA Avios, which expire within 3 years. Is it safe to say that after 3 years they're mine, because otherwise they'd be in zuto shel yam? And would the 3 years be from when I sold them, or from when they posted? It should be the latter, since the buyer has no idea when I got them and when they're going to expire.

[Mordyk]

i have only sold miles once. but whatever is a considerable amount of time for him to take the miles, afterwards you can keep them. remember that you gave this guy your account information. he shouldn't have access for such a long time. i had activity for 6 months and i told the guy to stop right away.

[Traveler718]

i have only sold miles once. but whatever is a considerable amount of time for him to take the miles, afterwards you can keep them. remember that you gave this guy your account information. he shouldn't have access for such a long time. i had activity for 6 months and i told the guy to stop right away.

I would love for you to be right. However, what's considered a "considerable" amount of time (I assume a year qualifies), and more importantly, by what right do you say that at that point I can keep them? I understand that I may be entitled to change the password to protect my account, but on what basis can I keep the points to use or resell?

[Mordyk]

I would love for you to be right. However, what's considered a "considerable" amount of time (I assume a year qualifies), and more importantly, by what right do you say that at that point I can keep them? I understand that I may be entitled to change the password to protect my account, but on what basis can I keep the points to use or resell?

I guess changing password and giving access at another time is also fair. But after a year I would keep the points. Or atleast call the broker and give 2 week notice
 
And considering this story that one broker sold to the next I wouldn't wait.  I  dont think when you sell points the broker can forward your acclunt information.

[Q274]

i dont understand your question, you sold the points, why is it your business what he does with them? Maybe he bought them and paid for them, so he can show his mother how many miles he can purchase. They are not yours period forever, yes id say this even if it was the day before they expire. If you have an issue with this, next time stipulate in your sale.

Just like when you go to a supermaket, the owner does not follow you home to make sure you use the item you bought from them.

[Name Changed]

You sold the account. Its not yours anymore.

Don't start making Yeshivisha cheshbonos, of when you could keep them.

For all you know this Non Jew that bought them off the broker re-sold them to a different Jew.

[Q274]

You sold the account. Its not yours anymore.

Don't start making Yeshivisha cheshbonos, of when you could keep them.

For all you know this Non Jew that bought them off the broker re-sold them to a different Jew.

but then that different jew could have sold them off to a non jew, so we are back to square one

[churnbabychurn]

You sold the account. Its not yours anymore.

Don't start making Yeshivisha cheshbonos, of when you could keep them.

For all you know this Non Jew that bought them off the broker re-sold them to a different Jew.

Although there is always the question of additional miles earned and posted after the sale.
Those are still owned by the moicher..

[sky121]

I've taken back an account after it expired.

[Traveler718]

I've taken back an account after it expired.

What do you mean? You sold miles, and then let all of the miles in the account expire and then took the empty account back? Wouldn't it seem reasonable to wait until an hour (or a minute) before they expire and then do something to extend them, and then keep them?

[sky121]

What do you mean? You sold miles, and then let all of the miles in the account expire and then took the empty account back? Wouldn't it seem reasonable to wait until an hour (or a minute) before they expire and then do something to extend them, and then keep them?

It was for accounts I was able to reinstate.

[Elibely]

I have the same thing, sold Avios miles almost 2 years ago and it's still in my account! I never contacted them, it's the same password I gave them back then.

[PlatinumGuy]

Might be hashavas avaida to remind the broker if he forgot about them

[12HRS]

Miles are BA Avios, which expire within 3 years. Is it safe to say that after 3 years they're mine, because otherwise they'd be in zuto shel yam? And would the 3 years be from when I sold them, or from when they posted? It should be the latter, since the buyer has no idea when I got them and when they're going to expire.

? buyer can clearly see when the account expires and there are ways to extend the expiration

[real-brisker]

You sold them.

They are not yours anymore.

End of story.

[how]

When you sell miles you sell the account. Its not yours anymore. PERIOD.

I sold my car 3 years ago but the buyer never uses it, he leaves it parked in a parking garage forgotten. Yesterday I found my spare key and off I went in "MY" car. After all for 3 years he didn't use it......

[sky121]

I agree he can't take the miles but I don't agree that you sell the account. Sometimes you don't sell all the miles in your account even. And most brokers I know assume you could switch password after miles are used.