Author Topic: Obamacare Master thread  (Read 18496 times)

Offline Matovu

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2016, 06:08:06 AM »
There's a lot to respond and debunk @Matovu's statements, but right now I see as the most interesting development the fact that there's a county in Arizona that will have a grand total of 0 (that's a ZERO) plans available on the exchange for 2017!

I am wondering if this can go back to SCOTUS and point out that they simply erred when they approved the individual mandate by saying it is a tax.

This situation sounds worse than Bolshevism - the government taxing you unless you purchase something that is simply not available for purchase, and the government can't do anything about it.

It took a little long to unravel, but the writing was on the wall from day 1. There was absolutely NO WAY in the world that Obamacare could work!

There's so much that can be responded to ?

At least when the talking points are about the tax, the supreme court, and not the high costs of premiums I know I'm not even going to start winning any argument.

You say, There's no way in the world it could work ? You have to agree that if more healthy people are in the pool then it would work out. The Auto Insurance industry have made it well for themselves.

Give it a few more years, stop rooting and cheering for it to fail. Let's get more people to enroll instead of opting out, and it'll be a success. (Despite preexisting conditions there's room for it to work)

Lastly, i'm assuming you've heard of this little piece of news ? Aetna was blocked by the anti trust laws to merge with another big healthcare provider ? They wrote a memo warning that they'll drop out ? Aetna has reportedly said recently in April,  thay were making money being in the exchange. Revenge anyone ? I'm not making this up, read up on this. In a half year Aetna will be right back in.

This news is a bad setback but not going to win by having people not acknowledge any success at all.

Offline JTZ

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #76 on: August 18, 2016, 06:36:23 AM »
Lastly, i'm assuming you've heard of this little piece of news ? Aetna was blocked by the anti trust laws to merge with another big healthcare provider ? They wrote a memo warning that they'll drop out ? Aetna has reportedly said recently in April,  thay were making money being in the exchange. Revenge anyone ? I'm not making this up, read up on this.
OK I read up on it and here is what I found.

"Aetna said earlier this month that it was halting its exchange expansion plans for 2017 and reviewing its participation in President Obama's signature health reform program. The company noted Monday that it has lost $430 million in its individual policies unit since the exchanges opened in January 2014."

"UnitedHealthcare (UNH), the nation's largest insurer that is expecting to lose about $1 billion on Obamacare policies in 2015 and 2016, is exiting most Obamacare exchanges in 2017."

Should I keep reading up on it?  :)
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Online ExGingi

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #77 on: August 18, 2016, 07:39:07 AM »
At least when the talking points are about the tax, the supreme court, and not the high costs of premiums I know I'm not even going to start winning any argument.

You say, There's no way in the world it could work ? You have to agree that if more healthy people are in the pool then it would work out. The Auto Insurance industry have made it well for themselves.

Give it a few more years, stop rooting and cheering for it to fail. Let's get more people to enroll instead of opting out, and it'll be a success. (Despite preexisting conditions there's room for it to work)

My initial thought was: could you please let us know where you get the kool-aid you are drinking, but on second thought I realized it has nothing to do with kool-aid. That would have been true had you tried to employ the slightest amount of logic to your arguments, yet you were skewed by the kool-aid.

However it seems obvious that there's is no attempt whatsoever on your behalf to use logic. Your arguments are 100% based on your feelings.

Do you know anything about risk management, actuarial science, or for that matter simple arithmetic (not even talking math)?

Did you ever read the law? (Side note - I would vote for any candidate that would push for a constitutional amendment to require lawmakers to pass a test on the contents of a bill before being allowed to vote on it, or alternatively limiting the length of bills to no longer than a reasonable number of words, number to be determined when I have some time to think this through).

What experience do you have either in the insurance business or the Healthcare business?

Your analogy to auto insurance is meaningless. No one is obligated to own a car and hence buy insurance. There's competition out there, there's individualized underwriting, and there is an assigned risk pool where high risk drivers can go and get insurance IF NO COMPANY WILL OTHERWISE ACCEPT THEM, where they will pay exorbitant rates. And there's no law assigning a mandated loss ratio on car insurance.

Do you see the differences? Please explain us the differences to show that you can objectively apply logic.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 07:50:36 AM by ExGingi »

Offline Matovu

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #78 on: August 18, 2016, 09:25:22 AM »
I read the reply.
And you're right I have no response.
Spent a big paragraph telling me talking point no. 99 that the bill is too big to read. Keep stuffing in the memos of the right wing. That's what you meant when you used the word logic over 10 times ? Sorry but I just cannot respond.

Actuary science ? Risk management ? Experience in the industry ? (I actually have) but good night. You won this.

Online aygart

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #79 on: August 18, 2016, 10:51:32 AM »
Canadian medicine is fine.(My spouce experienced it. Do i have credibility? )
Have any idea how many Americans were dying every year by not having any coverage ? I'm talking middle class americans. Canadians don't suffer this, and this goes for most of the world.
Maybe you lucked out or something like that. I, my wife, my children and my wifes entire family have had extensive experience with Canadian healthcare. My wife's grandfather needed to wait in a Canadian hospital for over a week for an emergency heart diagnostic test which my mother got within hours in a similar situation in NY. The delay could have killed him. That is called Canadians not suffering this? This statement is wishful thinking and has nothing to do with reality.

Most middle class employees get coverage from their employer.
The current law is straight out of republican textbooks. Forcing us to buy into the free marletplace is somthing yiu should applaud. As I said above your lawmakers in both houses comittees practically wrote the law.

The current law is straight out of republican textbooks.
Who cares whether it from Republicans or not? THAT is nothing more that a talking point with ZERO substantive application. Do you realize that Forcing and free marketplace is an oxymoron? All the lore so when the sellers are also mandated with certain coverages.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Online ExGingi

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #80 on: August 18, 2016, 11:01:34 AM »
Spent a big paragraph telling me talking point no. 99 that the bill is too big to read. Keep stuffing in the memos of the right wing. That's what you meant when you used the word logic over 10 times ? Sorry but I just cannot respond.
Wow. I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt, thinking that you honestly mean (and think what you wrote). You've just exposed yourself as a political hack.

I have no idea what the "talking points" are nor have I read any "memos of the right wing".

I have no political agenda here whatsoever. I simply understand how insurance and business work, coupled with a little understanding of human behavior (which ties into the understanding of the insurance) and saw from the outset that there was absolutely no way this could work in the real world. (And if I recall correctly there was a news story a while ago about some professor that admitted that lying to the American public about the realities of the law was necessary in order to get it passed - but let's not go there, as that is political).

And since you say you have experience (not clear from your response as to whether it is in Risk Management, Actuarial Science or the Healthcare or Insurance industry), why don't you share the specifics of your experience with us.

As I said before, it's simple arithmetic, but you seem to even have a problem telling whether it is day or night ;) so the only point in responding seems to be for the purpose of others, as you have your opinion (notice I didn't say mind) set.

Offline sguitarist18

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #81 on: August 18, 2016, 11:11:21 AM »

I rather you say it more clearly, no lawsuits for malpractice at all.
come on how do you differenciate outrageous from others ? won't work.
(this reminds me from the old republican "taxes are to high" argument. What they really want is pay Zero. say it so0

1) Most people will agree that there needs to be the option of lawsuits for malpractice. However, the system in america is ridiculous, where people can bring frivolous lawsuits of all kinds, with no risk to themselves. In many other countries, if you bring a lawsuit without a strong basis, you automatically have to pay the other sides legal fees.

2) While it would be nice to not have to pay taxes at all, I don't think anyone genuinely believes that. We understand that taxes are needed to help run things. People protest taxes that are higher than they should be, or having to shoulder an unfair burden (i.e., pushing for a voucher system for schools, which would cost the city less, and relieve the tuition burden on parents who send their kids to private schools).

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #82 on: August 18, 2016, 01:08:33 PM »
Wow. I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt, thinking that you honestly mean (and think what you wrote). You've just exposed yourself as a political hack.

I have no idea what the "talking points" are nor have I read any "memos of the right wing".

I have no political agenda here whatsoever. I simply understand how insurance and business work, coupled with a little understanding of human behavior (which ties into the understanding of the insurance) and saw from the outset that there was absolutely no way this could work in the real world. (And if I recall correctly there was a news story a while ago about some professor that admitted that lying to the American public about the realities of the law was necessary in order to get it passed - but let's not go there, as that is political).

And since you say you have experience (not clear from your response as to whether it is in Risk Management, Actuarial Science or the Healthcare or Insurance industry), why don't you share the specifics of your experience with us.

As I said before, it's simple arithmetic, but you seem to even have a problem telling whether it is day or night ;) so the only point in responding seems to be for the purpose of others, as you have your opinion (notice I didn't say mind) set.

Don't feed the troll
Live forever or die trying.

Offline Dan

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #83 on: August 18, 2016, 01:11:20 PM »
My increases were very minor before Obamacare.
Now it's massive every single year.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Online ExGingi

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #84 on: August 18, 2016, 01:46:24 PM »
My increases were very minor before Obamacare.
Now it's massive every single year.
The playbook was written in advance:

Mathematically speaking there is no way this could have worked without high premiums.

I suspect that premiums might have been artificially suppressed in the first couple of years by plugging in flawed assumptions (this is food for conspiracy theorists) which is why even established carriers are experiencing high premium increases and heavy losses. After all, the big carriers have experience and shouldn't be mispricing that badly.

Offline Dan

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #85 on: August 18, 2016, 01:53:04 PM »
I don't have Obamacare, but its regulations have significantly raised the annual increases on my plan.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Online ExGingi

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #86 on: August 18, 2016, 02:35:42 PM »
I don't have Obamacare, but its regulations have significantly raised the annual increases on my plan.
I guess you mean to say that you didn't purchase your plan on the exchange.

One of the big lies of Obamacare was "if you like your plan you can keep it". Other than large corporations and unions (the cronies of the Ds) and Medicaid recipients, no one that I know was able to keep their plans.  The other big lie was "if you like your Doctor, you can stay with him/her", in order to adjust costs, insurers are reshaping their networks, and many people find that their old carrier is no longer accepted at their doctor.

ALL health insurance in the US is currently subject to Obamacare (officially named the un"Affordable Care Act") mandates!

I don't know much about Health Insurance outside of NY, but know a lot about it in NY. Prior to Obamacare there was practically no individual health insurance in NY. You either had employer based coverage or you had government sponsored coverage (Medicaid, Child HealthPlus, Family HealthPlus, or Healthy NY).

Once Obamacare was enacted, individual plans became available in NY (on- and off-exchange, though it is my understanding that the off-exchange plans are carbon copies of the on-exchange plans, and I don't know of anyone who bought individual coverage off-exchange).

A few things went out the window in NY once Obamacare was enacted: Family HealthPlus, Healthy NY for individuals (still available for qualifying businesses, gives Gold level coverage for the equivalent of Bronze rates), and the ability to set up group coverage where the employer group consisted solely of Husband and Wife (which was how many entrepreneurs got coverage). Additionally Medical FSA contributions are now limited to $2,500 (instead of $5,000) and OTC drugs need a prescription order to qualify as an expense for FSA or HSA.

So bottom line - everyone is affected regardless of which policy you have!

Offline Matovu

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #87 on: August 18, 2016, 08:25:02 PM »
Don't feed the troll
Why the need to say this ?
It's a pretty civil conversation.

If anything, that's a hurtful comment and it's out of left field, I would consider that to be trolling.

Online ExGingi

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #88 on: August 18, 2016, 09:43:14 PM »
Why the need to say this ?
It's a pretty civil conversation.

If anything, that's a hurtful comment and it's out of left field, I would consider that to be trolling.
Your responses throughout this thread could be used in a textbook about left wing argument methods.

Maybe someone with more time and expertise than I posses could gather each and every one of your posts in this thread, and show how you consistently ignore facts, avoid substantive arguments but present plenty of emotional arguments which are founded on wishful thinking at best, occasionally attack the form of the argument using exaggerations ("you used the word logic over 10 times"), quote assumptions as facts, etc etc.

Yet when accused of trolling you take it personally, rather than prove it wrong by changing course and reverting to fact based and logic tested arguments.

Offline elit

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Re: Obamacare Master thread
« Reply #89 on: August 18, 2016, 10:03:24 PM »
Your responses throughout this thread could be used in a textbook about left wing argument methods.

Maybe someone with more time and expertise than I posses could gather each and every one of your posts in this thread, and show how you consistently ignore facts, avoid substantive arguments but present plenty of emotional arguments which are founded on wishful thinking at best, occasionally attack the form of the argument using exaggerations ("you used the word logic over 10 times"), quote assumptions as facts, etc etc.

Yet when accused of trolling you take it personally, rather than prove it wrong by changing course and reverting to fact based and logic tested arguments.
I am in the same side of this argument as you but whenever one resorts to you are drinking the Kool aid (see election thread) or you're using the text book arguments of the (insert left or right here)  or you really buy everything (insert "main stream media" or "talk radio" here) says.  It just brings the argument down  to a child's level. if you have a response to the person's point respond if you don't think it deserves a response don't respond.
/rant