Footsteps - Friend or Foe?

[aygart]

Guys nice arguing but I got things to do now. Anyways I'm not needed here to be the lone voice of reason as others get it as well. 
So take care.

How did I know that as soon as inconsistencies in your arguments are pointed out you would either ignore posts or just leave the discussion. I think I have seen that from you before.

[Moshe123]

Is there no org that encourages people to stay in the fold but teaches life skills and secular studies to be able to get regular jobs?

Ever heard of Aguda's COPE?

[ual902]

Why would anyone say keep smoking on shabbos??
And why wouldn't you love your fellow Jew as yourself??

The inherent question here is do you push OTD people further out the door or do you shoe them love (for who they are-not what they do) and work with them to return?

If you believe that making an example of troublemakers to show your kids that you mean business in the way to go, then I don't see what you have against footsteps. They're not making truly torah committed Jews frei out, they're getting "rid of the weeds" as you would look at them and those who smoke on shabbos.

If you believe you should love every Jew and ought to find the right individual path to make them feel loved and return to the fold, then both the LW rally and Footsteps are unconscionable IMHO.

@Dan the same thing should be said for footsteps, they don't accept everyone, say somone would like to get his GED with some help, if your not an athiest or agnostic or leaning towards athiesm, you will be considerd an outcast in footsteps.

Why is there a need to have trief on side and kosher on another side @ footsteps events?!

[DovDov]

Dan, while I don't necessarily disagree with your equation, you are nevertheless watering down any clear and necessary response to the OP's question. Footsteps is no friend!!

[Dan]

@Dan the same thing should be said for footsteps, they don't accept everyone, say somone would like to get his GED with some help, if your not an athiest or agnostic or leaning towards athiesm, you will be considerd an outcast in footsteps.

In that case AJ should like them even more, they'll only take the people he has already said we need to show pure contempt to and that deserve no ahavas yisroel whatsoever.

[Moshe123]

Why would anyone say keep smoking on shabbos??
And why wouldn't you love your fellow Jew as yourself??

The inherent question here is do you push OTD people further out the door or do you shoe them love (for who they are-not what they do) and work with them to return?

If you believe that making an example of troublemakers to show your kids that you mean business in the way to go, then I don't see what you have against footsteps. They're not making truly torah committed Jews frei out, they're getting "rid of the weeds" as you would look at them and those who smoke on shabbos.

If you believe you should love every Jew and ought to find the right individual path to make them feel loved and return to the fold, then both the LW rally and Footsteps are unconscionable IMHO.

If you learn through various poskim from throughout many eras, there were cases when they said to cut someone loose, so to save certain people/things.

[Dan]

Dan, while I don't necessarily disagree with your equation, you are nevertheless watering down any clear and necessary response to the OP's question. Footsteps is no friend!!

I think they're horrible, but I don't see why people that are so ready to chase away sinners think they're awful. They're doing the dirty work that they want done for them! They're keeping the sinners away from their own kids that they feel the need to protect via rallying against the sinners.

[Dan]

If you learn through various poskim from throughout many eras, there were cases when they said to cut someone loose, so to save certain people/things.

That's an extreme situation. I'd say that only applies to a "missionizing" agnostic.
If every sin deserves that then there won't be many of us left...

[Achas Veachas]

That's an extreme situation. I'd say that only applies to a "missionizing" agnostic.
If every sin deserves that then there won't be many of us left...

I'd say Footsteps is borderline "missionizing".

[DovDov]

I think they're horrible, but I don't see why people that are so ready to chase away sinners think they're awful. They're doing the dirty work that they want done for them! They're keeping the sinners away from their own kids that they feel the need to protect via rallying against the sinners.

Very well, you may be right but conflating the two in this discussion is a mistake IMO

ושננתם לבניך. שיהו מסודרים לתוך פיך, שכשאדם  שואלך דבר - אל תגמגם בם, אלא אמור לו מיד.

[Dan]

Very well, you may be right but conflating the two in this discussion is a mistake IMO

ושננתם לבניך. שיהו מסודרים לתוך פיך, שכשאדם
שואל שואלך דבר - אל תגמגם בם, אלא אמור לו מיד.

I don't see why. AJ said the goal of the Lakewood rally was to A. Embarrass the sinners/get them to leave town. B. Protect your kids from sinners and show them that such behavior won't be tolerated.

AKA the opposite of the kiruv approach.

My personal objective would be to invite them in for a shabbos meal and some nigunim, to try and find a spark. To put tefilin on them. All things that personally I do as I find the pushing away to be a copout and contemptible.

But if that's not your objective and if footsteps is drawing the sinners away then does that not accomplish the objective of the LW rally?

What am I missing? Especially in light of UAL902 saying that they don't even want you if you don't have agnostic beliefs?

[DovDov]

I don't see why. AJ said the goal of the Lakewood rally was to A. Embarrass the sinners/get them to leave town. B. Protect your kids from sinners and show them that such behavior won't be tolerated.

AKA the opposite of the kiruv approach.

My personal objective would be to invite them in for a shabbos meal and some nigunim, to try and find a spark. To put tefilin on them. All things that personally I do.

But if that's not your objective and if footsteps is drawing the sinners away then does that not accomplish the objective of the LW rally?

What am I missing?

I fail to see how tying in the Lakewood story, which was not mentioned, makes your answer to the OP's any clearer or stronger.

The Lakewood story is a worthy debate to be had... Just not in response to this question!

[Dan]

It has nothing to do with OP and everything to do with AJ making an ironic take.

[gozalim]

Is there no org that encourages people to stay in the fold but teaches life skills and secular studies to be able to get regular jobs?

http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=36861&alias=tech-giant-idt-opens-a-kollel

[Aj3042]

It has nothing to do with OP and everything to do with AJ making an ironic take.

If you don't get the difference between
   A. Protecting yourself, your family, your community, and the sanctity of Shabbos by not allowing public chillul shabbos in your face done to provoke you and
   B. A group that helps and encourages people within the fold to leave instead pf solving their problems and staying observant
then it is most unfortunate.

Others have been trying to explain it you over the last few pages so I'll leave the job to them.

[zale]

While I am a shomer torah umitzvos Orthodox Jew, I've always been a financial supporter of footsteps because I understood that they provided a safety net for people who left the orthodox world.  I thought that's a great cause, ie helping a Jew in their time of need even if I personally disagree with that persons decision to leave. 

People in a separate thread and via PM told me that they view Footsteps in a negative light. Since I'm an outsider to the communities that these people are leaving I genuinely don't understand the objections to the organization. 

I consider myself relatively open minded (don't we all) so can someone please tell me what this organization does wrong? Are there instances of them trying to convince people to leave the derech as opposed to just supporting them if they do? I think that would be inappropriate if it happens.

I don't know enough about the organization to weigh in, but I would like to chime in with a few points:

• Not every Orthodox sect treats OTD the same. Chabad is generally very kind to those who are OTD, and I find that Litvish and Belz are very reasonable as well. Satmar and Skver come down very hard on those who are OTD, and from what I have read, it appears that the vast majority of Footsteps clients are from those sects that treat OTD harshly.
• Those same sects are usually the ones who leave young men and women completely sheltered from the outside world, which makes leaving the fold impossible without help. (See "The Village" from M. Night Shyamalan).
• FFB's take religious observance for granted. Most Frum Jews cannot begin to understand the challenges of an individual who is OTD. Every FFB should ask him or herself, if they were born C"V to a non-observant family, would they WANT to become religious?

Now that we got this out of the way, let's understand what happens:

A Satmar Chossid wants to leave the fold. He immediately becomes excommunicated by the entire Satmar community, including his own parents and siblings. They have zero tolerance for dissenters. He is now alone in the world with no family, no friends and probably no money. Now, as I stated before, I don't know enough about Footsteps to know if they encourage leaving the fold, but my understanding has always been that they merely help this individual cope with the outside world.

If they actively discourage their clients from trying to reconnect with their family and religion, then I have to agree with those who believe that you should not give them money.

[Achas Veachas]

I don't see why. AJ said the goal of the Lakewood rally was to A. Embarrass the sinners/get them to leave town. B. Protect your kids from sinners and show them that such behavior won't be tolerated...

But if that's not your objective and if footsteps is drawing the sinners away then does that not accomplish the objective of the LW rally?

What am I missing? Especially in light of UAL902 saying that they don't even want you if you don't have agnostic beliefs?

Footsteps only accomplishes one of those goals, it protects Frum kids from having to interact with someone who faces different challenges than they do, what it doesn't accomplish is the first goal you mentioned...

[Dan]

Footsteps only accomplishes one of those goals, it protects Frum kids from having to interact with someone who faces different challenges than they do, what it doesn't accomplish is the first goal you mentioned...

Do the agnostics continue to live in Willi or do they move elsewhere?

[Dan]

If you don't get the difference between
   A. Protecting yourself, your family, your community, and the sanctity of Shabbos by not allowing public chillul shabbos in your face done to provoke you and
   B. A group that helps and encourages people within the fold to leave instead pf solving their problems and staying observant
then it is most unfortunate.

Others have been trying to explain it you over the last few pages so I'll leave the job to them.

Do you know for a fact that they encourage believers to go OTD?
Because others have said firsthand here that they're only after the agnostics...the type of people you'd say you need to protect against and that I'd say is still working with.

[grodnoking]

I fail to see how tying in the Lakewood story, which was not mentioned, makes your answer to the OP's any clearer or stronger.

The Lakewood story is a worthy debate to be had... Just not in response to this question!

There is a thread a few hundred long on that