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Thread summary:

Trump walks in a room.

1. Moshe123 shoots at him because he is pure evil, 2. ilherman+hachover jump in front of the bullets because Trump is our savior. 3. aygart tackles Moshe123 because Trump is better than HRC, 4. but Baruch can't stand Trump so he tells aygart he's crazy and Trump is a madman. 5. ExGingi would like to point out that who cares what he is, all that matters is the supreme court nominations. 6. Dan and others aren't really sure how this makes them feel plus they don't really want to drink poison. 7. Spoiler alert: Moshe123's gun was empty, it was just a blank.

And Freddie is in the back of the room just cooking his cholent. Until he announces that there are TWO menu choices, Pareve Cholent or Vegetable Lasagna. While etech0 figured out that they are both poisoned.


Repeat x100.

And then Hilary walks into the room with the most confidence a candidate has had in recent history. She is so confident that she eats both the Pareve Cholent and Vegetable Lasagna. Everyone is the room is aghast, they don't know how this happened, could it be Comey is behind this poisoning or was it that her Obamacare premiums were to high to get her the help she needed.

Everyone stared as she choked and was cast into oblivion on November, 8, 2016 the last day she was heard from in the public eye.

Moshe123, ilherman, hachover, Baruch, ExGingi, Dan, Freddie, etech0, and the rest of America are in total shock and hope that so long as Trump doesn't eat any Pareve Cholent and Vegetable Lasagna and stays true to his supreme court nominees this may be the greatest thing to happen since the CSR and GC's.

But remember this may be the beginning of the end...

P.S. Thanks to cognitive dissonance aygart, Michael Moore, and Scott Adams knew the whole time that Trump could win, unfortunately for JTZ he may be off DDF for the next 4 years due to his mandatory 3 times daily consumption of CROW!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub notes:

Nov 8 : Time to edit the wiki. Biggest upset in American History according to Michael Isikoff.


http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=57647.0

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5952.html
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump?lang=en
http://blog.dilbert.com/
http://fivethirtyeight.com/
All Political Ads - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvuOH0oJFwElBgRKz-eMlLw

As things turns out, the most prescient view on this election was that of Michael Moore! Though Scott Adams is also claiming a high view level of prescience.


Poll

Who are you voting for?

Clinton
12 (10.3%)
Trump
67 (57.3%)
Johnson
2 (1.7%)
Other (Write in)
8 (6.8%)
I don't vote in general and won't be voting this year
9 (7.7%)
I do vote in general, but won't be this year
19 (16.2%)

Total Members Voted: 117

Author Topic: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread  (Read 3770640 times)

Offline skyguy918

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15320 on: December 10, 2017, 02:37:59 PM »
Of course it benefits the rich mor ethan the middle class. How could any tax cut not benefit those who pay more taxes more than those who pay less?
Just catching up on this thread and came across this beauty. I really hope you don't actually believe this (insert your tired line about process arguments here).

Offline aygart

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15321 on: December 10, 2017, 02:45:35 PM »
Just catching up on this thread and came across this beauty. I really hope you don't actually believe this (insert your tired line about process arguments here).
That's a very coherent argument ::)

I only use that when it actually has to do with process. It is true whether you like it or not. Or are you one of those who feel one party is sincere and one not?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline skyguy918

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15322 on: December 10, 2017, 04:02:04 PM »
That's a very coherent argument ::)

I only use that when it actually has to do with process. It is true whether you like it or not. Or are you one of those who feel one party is sincere and one not?
I didn't make an argument yet. But it sounds like you do believe tax cuts by definition must benefit those that already pay higher taxes more than those who pay lower amounts of taxes. That's certainly false. A tax cut can be constructed in any way the legislators want to, targeting whatever segment they want to. The same is true in reverse when implementing or raising taxes.

Offline aygart

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15323 on: December 10, 2017, 04:19:14 PM »
I didn't make an argument yet. But it sounds like you do believe tax cuts by definition must benefit those that already pay higher taxes more than those who pay lower amounts of taxes. That's certainly false. A tax cut can be constructed in any way the legislators want to, targeting whatever segment they want to. The same is true in reverse when implementing or raising taxes.
Of course you can do whatever you want. You can confiscate all of the upper class's money and hand to the lower class too. That does not mean it is a rational tax argument. I am simply saying that the argument that the rich are getting a larger dollar amount of the tax cut is a disingenuous argument. If you cut every single person's taxes by the same percentage the bulk will be saved by the rich. You can make the middle class pay no tax at all and cut the rich's rate by a few percentage points and the rich will still get a larger dollar amount of the tax cuts.

Doing so would be to make the tax code more progressive. It is ridiculous to be expecting the Rs to do that.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline skyguy918

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15324 on: December 10, 2017, 08:10:29 PM »
Of course you can do whatever you want. You can confiscate all of the upper class's money and hand to the lower class too. That does not mean it is a rational tax argument. I am simply saying that the argument that the rich are getting a larger dollar amount of the tax cut is a disingenuous argument. If you cut every single person's taxes by the same percentage the bulk will be saved by the rich. You can make the middle class pay no tax at all and cut the rich's rate by a few percentage points and the rich will still get a larger dollar amount of the tax cuts.

Doing so would be to make the tax code more progressive. It is ridiculous to be expecting the Rs to do that.
Lol, perhaps you're saying that now, but you'll have a tough time twisting the statement I replied to into anything resembling the statement above.

But once we're on the topic - it's not disingenuous to point out the dollar amounts of the cuts for different ranges of wealth/income. Perhaps it's disingenuous to assume everyone agrees that the current proposal is bad for that reason, but no more than the opposite assumption.

Also, your argument at best holds water with the changes to the individual income brackets and tax rates. When you factor in all the other things in the bill (estate tax repeal, changes to the AMT, and many others), it becomes pretty clear that even on a percentage basis, the top few percent gain more from the bill than anyone else. You could of course argue that this brings us closer to how it should be, but it would still be disingenuous to call the bill a tax cut for the middle class when it does so much more for the upper class and beyond.

Offline aygart

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15325 on: December 10, 2017, 08:21:38 PM »
Lol, perhaps you're saying that now, but you'll have a tough time twisting the statement I replied to into anything resembling the statement above.

But once we're on the topic - it's not disingenuous to point out the dollar amounts of the cuts for different ranges of wealth/income. Perhaps it's disingenuous to assume everyone agrees that the current proposal is bad for that reason, but no more than the opposite assumption.

Also, your argument at best holds water with the changes to the individual income brackets and tax rates. When you factor in all the other things in the bill (estate tax repeal, changes to the AMT, and many others), it becomes pretty clear that even on a percentage basis, the top few percent gain more from the bill than anyone else. You could of course argue that this brings us closer to how it should be, but it would still be disingenuous to call the bill a tax cut for the middle class when it does so much more for the upper class and beyond.
Each of those items was a campaign promise of his. His tax promises can't be compared to Obama's keep your plan promise just because those items which he also campaigned on are also included in the same bill.

I don't consider Trump to be an honest person. His current profession is a professional liar aka a politician. I don't expect him to keep all of his campaign promises any more than any other politician and considering the way he overpromised, but that is the nature of campaign promises.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 09:09:35 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline henche

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15326 on: December 10, 2017, 09:11:47 PM »
Are we working with some analysis of the effects?

I've been assuming it is going to be a tax cut for most ppl, maybe 60 or 80 percent, mostly the bottom 60 out 80 percent. And then also a tax cut for the very top. 


Offline Yammer

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15327 on: December 10, 2017, 09:37:02 PM »
You're attempting to say that large corporations are not going to benefit that much, but that's laughable. Are there some companies that already pay closer to an effective rate of 20% that benefit less? Sure. But on the whole large corporations will see a huge reduction in effective rate.
What I meant is that it's being over played.
But I decided to give a quick check:

"Last summer, the IRS released data on taxpayer incomes that offers intriguing insight into the taxes rich Americans pay.

The information suggests that the average person with an income north of $1 million per year pays 25% or more of adjusted gross income in taxes"

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/31/how-much-do-rich-americans-pay-in-taxes.aspx


Let’s look at the numbers. Using data from the Internal Revenue Service in 2009, the top 1% of earners, including individuals with incomes of $343,927 or greater, represented 16.9% of all income and paid 36.7% of all federal taxes. Their average tax rate was 24.01%. The top 0.1% who had incomes of $1,432,890 or greater represented 7.8% of all income and paid 17.11% of all taxes. Their average rate was 24.3%.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2012/01/31/the-facts-on-tax-rates-who-pays-what/



Offline henche

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15328 on: December 10, 2017, 10:15:09 PM »
What I meant is that it's being over played.
But I decided to give a quick check:

"Last summer, the IRS released data on taxpayer incomes that offers intriguing insight into the taxes rich Americans pay.

The information suggests that the average person with an income north of $1 million per year pays 25% or more of adjusted gross income in taxes"

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/31/how-much-do-rich-americans-pay-in-taxes.aspx


Let’s look at the numbers. Using data from the Internal Revenue Service in 2009, the top 1% of earners, including individuals with incomes of $343,927 or greater, represented 16.9% of all income and paid 36.7% of all federal taxes. Their average tax rate was 24.01%. The top 0.1% who had incomes of $1,432,890 or greater represented 7.8% of all income and paid 17.11% of all taxes. Their average rate was 24.3%.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2012/01/31/the-facts-on-tax-rates-who-pays-what/

Should compare rates on gross income.  Ha gufa part off the question is what deductions should be allowed to get to agi

Offline skyguy918

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15329 on: December 10, 2017, 10:18:34 PM »
What I meant is that it's being over played.
But I decided to give a quick check:

"Last summer, the IRS released data on taxpayer incomes that offers intriguing insight into the taxes rich Americans pay.

The information suggests that the average person with an income north of $1 million per year pays 25% or more of adjusted gross income in taxes"

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/31/how-much-do-rich-americans-pay-in-taxes.aspx


Let’s look at the numbers. Using data from the Internal Revenue Service in 2009, the top 1% of earners, including individuals with incomes of $343,927 or greater, represented 16.9% of all income and paid 36.7% of all federal taxes. Their average tax rate was 24.01%. The top 0.1% who had incomes of $1,432,890 or greater represented 7.8% of all income and paid 17.11% of all taxes. Their average rate was 24.3%.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2012/01/31/the-facts-on-tax-rates-who-pays-what/
What does that have to do with the corporate rate, and large and small corporations?

Offline Yammer

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15330 on: December 10, 2017, 10:24:26 PM »
What does that have to do with the corporate rate, and large and small corporations?
Have it your way....

After accounting for tax breaks and loopholes, U.S. corporate rates are well below the 35 percent top statutory rate and are in line with corporate rates in similar countries.  The Treasury Office of Tax Analysis estimates:

The average corporate tax rate on profits from new investments made in the U.S. is 24 percent

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/actual-us-corporate-tax-rates-are-in-line-with-comparable-countries#_edn1

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15331 on: December 10, 2017, 10:47:38 PM »
Have it your way....

After accounting for tax breaks and loopholes, U.S. corporate rates are well below the 35 percent top statutory rate and are in line with corporate rates in similar countries.  The Treasury Office of Tax Analysis estimates:

The average corporate tax rate on profits from new investments made in the U.S. is 24 percent

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/actual-us-corporate-tax-rates-are-in-line-with-comparable-countries#_edn1
This is a very narrow point of comparison.

Offline henche

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15332 on: December 10, 2017, 10:54:32 PM »
Have it your way....

After accounting for tax breaks and loopholes, U.S. corporate rates are well below the 35 percent top statutory rate and are in line with corporate rates in similar countries.  The Treasury Office of Tax Analysis estimates:

The average corporate tax rate on profits from new investments made in the U.S. is 24 percent

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/actual-us-corporate-tax-rates-are-in-line-with-comparable-countries#_edn1


Do other countries not have tax breaks and loopholes?  I bet they do

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15333 on: December 10, 2017, 11:25:00 PM »

Do other countries not have tax breaks and loopholes?  I bet they do
The average corporate tax rate on profits from new investments made in the U.S. is 24 percent; the average corporate rate on profits from new investments made by companies in other “Group of Seven” (G-7) industrialized, democratic countries, weighted by the size of their economies, is 21 percent.  This measure of tax rates is useful when considering how corporate taxes affect companies’ decisions about where to make new investments.

Offline aygart

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15334 on: December 11, 2017, 09:35:04 AM »
But it is what our source told us........


Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15335 on: December 11, 2017, 10:53:34 AM »
The average corporate tax rate on profits from new investments made in the U.S. is 24 percent; the average corporate rate on profits from new investments made by companies in other “Group of Seven” (G-7) industrialized, democratic countries, weighted by the size of their economies, is 21 percent.  This measure of tax rates is useful when considering how corporate taxes affect companies’ decisions about where to make new investments.

Ok, in that context, it probably makes sense to lower the rate to 20, and close the tricks

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15336 on: December 11, 2017, 11:02:13 AM »
Ok, in that context, it probably makes sense to lower the rate to 20, and close the tricks
That is exactly what the Rs have been saying for many years. We should simplify the tax code. Of course when it comes to their pet issues they still want to use the tax code to incentive them.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15337 on: December 11, 2017, 11:16:39 AM »
Ok, in that context, it probably makes sense to lower the rate to 20, and close the tricks
That's my point, smoke aside it seems to benefit everyone. And while there is no way to prove it, based on personal income we can assume the top 1% are the ones not paying the current 35% rate.

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15338 on: December 11, 2017, 11:17:49 AM »
Ok, in that context, it probably makes sense to lower the rate to 20, and close the tricks
That's my point, smoke aside it seems to benefit everyone. And while there is no way to prove it, based on personal income loopholes that the 1% are using I'm assuming the top 1% are the ones not paying the current 35% rate.

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Re: US Politics/2016 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread
« Reply #15339 on: December 11, 2017, 02:55:27 PM »
Another campaign promise to the coal workers kept?  :P



Feelings don't care about your facts