Author Topic: Parsonage  (Read 21023 times)

Online Dawie

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2018, 03:33:27 PM »
my gut feeling tells me that claiming 90-100% of your income as parsonage makes you more likely to be audited.
if it's all valid housing expenses, why would it

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #61 on: April 24, 2018, 04:14:39 PM »
if it's all valid housing expenses, why would it
I can be all valid but if it's over 50% it's likely to be audited because it's suspicious. Doesn't mean you can't beat the audit if it's all legit.

Offline whYME

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #62 on: April 24, 2018, 04:17:46 PM »
if it's all valid housing expenses, why would it
I'm not saying it can't be legit. That doesn't mean it doesn't look suspicious.

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #63 on: April 24, 2018, 04:22:05 PM »
I'm not saying it can't be legit. That doesn't mean it doesn't look suspicious.
if it's 70k it's suspicious if it's 35 it isn;t even if it's 100%

Offline whYME

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #64 on: April 24, 2018, 04:26:30 PM »
if it's 70k it's suspicious if it's 35 it isn;t even if it's 100%
Is that a fact or your opinion?

I imagine it might depend on whether you have other income to declare besides this parsonage.

Offline Yehuda25

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #65 on: April 24, 2018, 04:37:07 PM »
reviving an old but very relevant topic...

I'm wondering why all rabbeim that receive parsonage dont file for the 4361 exemption.
back to this...

why doesnt everyone do this?
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


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Offline whYME

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #66 on: April 24, 2018, 04:39:59 PM »
Is that a fact or your opinion?
rereading this I see it might come across kinda snarky, not how I meant it.
It was a legit question if that was based on any real information/data or just what seems non-suspicious to you.

Offline whYME

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #67 on: April 24, 2018, 04:41:13 PM »
back to this...

why doesnt everyone do this?
If someone isn't disciplined enough to actually save for retirement properly on their own is it worth it for them?

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #68 on: April 24, 2018, 05:16:11 PM »
back to this...

why doesnt everyone do this?

From the instructions (emphasis added):
Quote
This application must be based on your religious or conscientious opposition to the acceptance (for services performed as a minister, member of a religious order not under a vow of poverty,  or Christian Science practitioner) of any public insurance that makes payments for death, disability, old age, or retirement; or that makes payments for the cost of, or provides services for, medical care, including any insurance benefits established by the Social Security Act.
Is one opposed to acceptance, or just to payments? Would they be opposed to acceptance if they knew that ten years after they paid into it they would accept something from it for many years?

Can one attest to that and still be on Medicaid?

I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Yehuda25

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #69 on: April 24, 2018, 05:27:39 PM »
From the instructions (emphasis added):Is one opposed to acceptance, or just to payments? Would they be opposed to acceptance if they knew that ten years after they paid into it they would accept something from it for many years?

Can one attest to that and still be on Medicaid?
Ethically or practically?
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


― Aristotle

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #70 on: April 24, 2018, 05:36:10 PM »
Ethically or practically?
Ethically.

The Medicaid question could in theory become a practical challenge. Need a lawyer to chime in on this.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Yehuda25

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #71 on: April 24, 2018, 06:42:27 PM »
Ethically.

The Medicaid question could in theory become a practical challenge. Need a lawyer to chime in on this.
So, let me just throw out a few thoughts. As an FYI I heard that the Agudah mentions what you are saying (your practical reason) as a reason not to go ahead and file. Though I don't really understand it.

Lets say "Yankel" makes 10k a year as a rabbi, additionally he owns a furniture store and makes 100k a year from that. Let's say he filed the 4361.

Now, on the 100k of self employed income he is paying the 15.3, and on the 10k paying nothing.

It's very clear that he gets the SS and other benefits from what he is paying/payed into the system.

So, on the income that he was allowed to opt out based on his own beliefs - he choose to do so. But he is not swearing that if needed he wouldn't take the benefits.
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


― Aristotle

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #72 on: April 25, 2018, 10:35:13 AM »
rereading this I see it might come across kinda snarky, not how I meant it.
It was a legit question if that was based on any real information/data or just what seems non-suspicious to you.
can it be opinion based on fact?  (we can get CM to chime in if need be)
Experience

Offline efflpetzel

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Offline Yehuda25

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“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


― Aristotle

Offline joey89

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #75 on: May 07, 2018, 07:51:52 PM »
Ethically or practically?
My accountant told me that it is not worth opting out, being that you will not be eligible for any social security benefits including unemployment etc. (do not recall if we discussed Medicaid, being that my salary makes me ineligible, so it was not so pertinent for me)

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #76 on: May 07, 2018, 09:17:14 PM »
My accountant told me that it is not worth opting out, being that you will not be eligible for any social security benefits including unemployment etc. (do not recall if we discussed Medicaid, being that my salary makes me ineligible, so it was not so pertinent for me)

I don't know your age, but I would venture to say that replacing social security benefits (disability and retirement) using private market options (individual non-cancellable disability insurance, Whole Life insurance, and a private guaranteed pension) might cost less than 15.3% of income. Though I am not sure what might be done to replace Medicare (not medicaid).

That being said, I once heard from R' Chaim Sholom Deutsch from Yerushalaim, that for quite a few years he refused to be a member of "Kupat Cholim". At his wife's urging, he once asked the Rebbe about it during a yechidus. The Rebbe's response was that he should join משום אל תפרוש מן הציבור.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #77 on: May 08, 2018, 11:38:02 AM »
I don't know your age, but I would venture to say that replacing social security benefits (disability and retirement) using private market options (individual non-cancellable disability insurance, Whole Life insurance, and a private guaranteed pension) might cost less than 15.3% of income. Though I am not sure what might be done to replace Medicare (not medicaid).

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-08/annuities-are-the-retirement-solution-everyone-loves-to-hate

Not that all Annuities can be termed "guaranteed pension", though all do have certain guarantees. If you know what you're getting (and have an honest agent) they can be an excellent tool.

I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #78 on: May 08, 2018, 03:26:11 PM »
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-08/annuities-are-the-retirement-solution-everyone-loves-to-hate

Not that all Annuities can be termed "guaranteed pension", though all do have certain guarantees. If you know what you're getting (and have an honest agent) they can be an excellent tool.
Replacement for guaranteed pension would be a DIA.

Offline mord1

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Re: Parsonage
« Reply #79 on: May 08, 2018, 06:19:29 PM »
Replacement for guaranteed pension would be a DIA.
Or an annuity with a lifetime income rider,