Author Topic: Can someone help me with a gemara?  (Read 2817 times)

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Can someone help me with a gemara?
« on: August 15, 2018, 12:41:12 AM »
Brochos דף כו, ב
http://www.dafyomi.org/index.php?masechta=brachos&daf=26b&go=Go

In tosfos טעה. Tosfos brings down רב אלפס towards the middle that's mashma that he holds even if you won't be adding anything in your makeup tefilla you should still daven it. Why - because in our case when you made havdala in the second maariv Rav alfes holds you should daven a third time without havdala even though you already davened the same exact thing the first time.

What I don't understand is that why can't you say the first time was a tefillas נדבה (I think that's what it's called) and the third time is really the first time you're making up for mincha? So it should be considered you're being marviach a full tefilla?

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Offline Amusch

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Re: Can someone help me with a gemara?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2018, 10:18:20 AM »
That's what he's saying. You're first becomes at best, a tefillas nedava, in retrospect. Your second one was done properly and conts as mariv, then the third counts as the makeup for mincha. When he says "marvi'ach," that doesn't include the benefits of a tefillas nedava; he means benefits of fulfilling a halachic requirement.
Not sure I understood your question correctly, but that's what I think.

Offline Luvisrael

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Re: Can someone help me with a gemara?
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2018, 11:44:46 AM »
Wow! DDF taken to a new level!

Offline Z56

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Re: Can someone help me with a gemara?
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2018, 11:46:41 AM »
I like this Thread
“I have nothing in common with lazy people who blame others for their lack of success. Great things come from hard work

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Can someone help me with a gemara?
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2018, 11:48:08 AM »
I did to until I found out it wasn't to help me with my German.  :P
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline shwarmabob

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Re: Can someone help me with a gemara?
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2018, 11:58:33 AM »
I did to until I found out it wasn't to help me with my German.  :P
you didn't try

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Can someone help me with a gemara?
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2018, 12:10:04 PM »
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline shwarmabob

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Re: Can someone help me with a gemara?
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2018, 12:55:24 PM »
Ja, ich habe
Sorry, that sounds like Yiddish to me

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Can someone help me with a gemara?
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2018, 01:02:06 PM »
Sorry, that sounds like Yiddish to me
Gleichen unterschied.
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Re: Can someone help me with a gemara?
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2018, 01:08:18 PM »

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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I just found a new supply of forks!

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Re: Can someone help me with a gemara?
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2018, 01:12:10 PM »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: Can someone help me with a gemara?
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2018, 12:50:48 AM »
That's what he's saying. You're first becomes at best, a tefillas nedava, in retrospect. Your second one was done properly and conts as mariv, then the third counts as the makeup for mincha. When he says "marvi'ach," that doesn't include the benefits of a tefillas nedava; he means benefits of fulfilling a halachic requirement.
Not sure I understood your question correctly, but that's what I think.
I was asking something based on an assumption. I wanted to know what the comparison of the gemaras case is to the case of forgetting yaaleh vyavo.

I thought that when you forget yaaleh vyavo the original tefillah was good and you just need to add yaaleh vyavo which happens to need another tefillah in order to be said.

So over there you won't be adding anything if you're mashlim after Rosh chodesh since you're tefillah on Rosh chodesh worked for whatever you said, just without yaaleh vyavo.

Or in other words I thought the tefillah on Rosh chodesh doesn't turn into a nedava. But the tashlumin afterwards does turn into a nedava (except for yaaleh vyavo).

On the other hand by the case of forgetting shabbos mincha, the first maariv turns into a nedava. Therefore the third maariv is now really the tefillah for shabbos. So it's considered you ARE saying something you haven't said before.

If that's so, then it's possible that R' Alfes would hold you have to daven a third time but by Rosh chodesh you would not have to daven over.

If I'm making a mistake please let me know.
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Offline Amusch

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Re: Can someone help me with a gemara?
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2018, 10:27:01 PM »
I was asking something based on an assumption. I wanted to know what the comparison of the gemaras case is to the case of forgetting yaaleh vyavo.

I thought that when you forget yaaleh vyavo the original tefillah was good and you just need to add yaaleh vyavo which happens to need another tefillah in order to be said.

So over there you won't be adding anything if you're mashlim after Rosh chodesh since you're tefillah on Rosh chodesh worked for whatever you said, just without yaaleh vyavo.

Or in other words I thought the tefillah on Rosh chodesh doesn't turn into a nedava. But the tashlumin afterwards does turn into a nedava (except for yaaleh vyavo).

On the other hand by the case of forgetting shabbos mincha, the first maariv turns into a nedava. Therefore the third maariv is now really the tefillah for shabbos. So it's considered you ARE saying something you haven't said before.

If that's so, then it's possible that R' Alfes would hold you have to daven a third time but by Rosh chodesh you would not have to daven over.

If I'm making a mistake please let me know.

I see you're using past tense, so I'm not sure where you are now with your assumption, but I believe it is incorrect. After establishing that there is such a thing as tashlumim when you miss or mess up a tefillah (which for most of our intents and purposes, are the same), Tosfos raises the interesting issue of when you mess up, but the next SE which you will use as tashlumim LACKS the very thing you messed up with. So, for example, is it worth saying two marivs on the 2nd of the month when you anyway won't be saying ya'aleh v'yavo, just to make up for an IDENTICAL SE that you just said, without ya'aleh v'yavo (albeit on rosh chodesh when you should have). This is similar to missing Shabbos mincha which you cannot "replace" on sat nite, but maybe you can say two weekday ones anyway. This question is debated in Tosfos with R Alfas on one side. Is that better or am I still missing it?

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Re: Can someone help me with a gemara?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2018, 10:59:21 AM »
I need to learn more :), Just saying.

Was this prompted by someone forgetting ya'aleh v'yavo last saturday night? :)

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Re: Can someone help me with a gemara?
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2018, 07:02:17 PM »
I see you're using past tense, so I'm not sure where you are now with your assumption, but I believe it is incorrect...
Yes I think my assumption is wrong. So my question is answered. I'm not sure what you were trying to say afterwards.
Was this prompted by someone forgetting ya'aleh v'yavo last saturday night? :)
Nope
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