Author Topic: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores  (Read 21534 times)

Offline gozalim

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #120 on: June 10, 2016, 10:42:30 AM »
I think it's unlikely, as they don't serve meat from behind the counter.
It's usually all prepackaged sandwiches and salads which probably come from out of store, but even if not, that drop of meat on the knife is nothing compared to the tons of dairy equipment they use every day. Also if It's pork and milk there's no problem of Chanan (acc to mechaber). More things to clarify is if the water that washes the dishes is yad soledes, if there's soap involved, if there's no shishim against the treif products and etc. My guess is that for Sephardim the biggest issue is treif being served, not so much a problem with the Keilim.

One of the things the agencies say is assur is plain coffee from the machines because it touches glass Keilim which were assur'd from Chanan. From a Sephardic perspective this chasash doesn't even start.
if you had read what the agencies actually say, you'd know that sandwiches get heated in an oven behind the counter. And the dishes that get washed are not necessarily glass, there are ceramic and /or steel parts depending what you're drinking. And read the menu before you rule out BBC.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #121 on: June 10, 2016, 10:44:59 AM »
if you had read what the agencies actually say, you'd know that sandwiches get heated in an oven behind the counter. And the dishes that get washed are not necessarily glass, there are ceramic and /or steel parts depending what you're drinking. And read the menu before you rule out BBC.

I was referring to a plain coffee being made in glass.
That I did read from the CRC I think.
No worries about ceramic with that.
Also don't remember any drinks of mine being made in the oven but who knows.

And I didn't say that there's no BBC, just saying that it's not as much BBC if pork also served.
Visibly Jewish

Offline gozalim

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #122 on: June 10, 2016, 10:51:21 AM »
I was referring to a plain coffee being made in glass.
That I did read from the CRC I think.
No worries about ceramic with that.
Also don't remember any drinks of mine being made in the oven but who knows.

And I didn't say that there's no BBC, just saying that it's not as much BBC if pork also served.
problem indeed begins with dishes, but not only glass. Ceramic plate in oven washed with machine parts (brew basket which is also not glass)
You're probably confusing with espresso which is brewed into a glass, but that assumes you removed the shot divider.
And they spell the wash process and temperature out pretty clearly.
And pork cancels out the beef (or chicken)? Fill me in....

Offline Ergel

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #123 on: June 14, 2016, 01:54:00 AM »
FWIU - Chalav akum is definitely assur miderabonan- it's a gezeirah that assurs the milk whether or not there's any metzios of issur in the milk. The shailah is whether there's timtum halev,
And you'd be incorrect.
It's a machlokes haposkim
Aruch hashulchan (116:4-6)/chasam sofer hold it's a davar shebiminyan and therefore even if no chashuvah davar tamei it remains assur.
Pri chadash (116:6)/radvaz hold it's not ne'esar as a davar shebiminyan and therefore when there is no chashash (no davar tamei in the city/treif milk is more expensive) it's mutar. (Chazon ish 41:4 holds like this)
Rav Moshe's chiddush (yoreh deah 1:47-49) is that even according to the first opinion, you can still be matir through government supervision, ayen sham taamo.


So Freddie, your trade against those who drink chalav Stam would seem to be misplaced if there are valid shitos who are matir. Do we attack everyone who has different psakim then us? Maybe people are drinking it because of the psak they have, and not because they are callous towards maachalos assuros?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 01:57:37 AM by Ergel »
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #124 on: June 14, 2016, 08:04:54 AM »
Re cholov akum. IIRC It is a machlokes achronim whether the enacted an issur or a geder.
I will post sources when I look it up

And you'd be incorrect.
It's a machlokes haposkim
Aruch hashulchan (116:4-6)/chasam sofer hold it's a davar shebiminyan and therefore even if no chashuvah davar tamei it remains assur.
Pri chadash (116:6)/radvaz hold it's not ne'esar as a davar shebiminyan and therefore when there is no chashash (no davar tamei in the city/treif milk is more expensive) it's mutar. (Chazon ish 41:4 holds like this)
Rav Moshe's chiddush (yoreh deah 1:47-49) is that even according to the first opinion, you can still be matir through government supervision, ayen sham taamo.


So Freddie, your trade against those who drink chalav Stam would seem to be misplaced if there are valid shitos who are matir. Do we attack everyone who has different psakim then us? Maybe people are drinking it because of the psak they have, and not because they are callous towards maachalos assuros?
+1

Offline Ergel

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #125 on: June 14, 2016, 04:46:55 PM »
When someone quotes some real mareh mekomos and doesn't just talk from their boich, this thread goes deafeningly silent.
Fascinating
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Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #126 on: June 26, 2016, 11:47:20 AM »
And you'd be incorrect.
It's a machlokes haposkim
Aruch hashulchan (116:4-6)/chasam sofer hold it's a davar shebiminyan and therefore even if no chashuvah davar tamei it remains assur.
Pri chadash (116:6)/radvaz hold it's not ne'esar as a davar shebiminyan and therefore when there is no chashash (no davar tamei in the city/treif milk is more expensive) it's mutar. (Chazon ish 41:4 holds like this)
Rav Moshe's chiddush (yoreh deah 1:47-49) is that even according to the first opinion, you can still be matir through government supervision, ayen sham taamo.


So Freddie, your trade against those who drink chalav Stam would seem to be misplaced if there are valid shitos who are matir. Do we attack everyone who has different psakim then us? Maybe people are drinking it because of the psak they have, and not because they are callous towards maachalos assuros?
The accepted psak is not like the P'ri Chodosh. See Beis Meir.

That's why R' Moshe needed to find a heter even without going according to the P'ri Chodosh.

(Chazon Ish does seem to hold like the P"Ch, but I've seen a couple of seforim claiming that l'ma'aseh, the Chazon Ish was only mattir for children where there was no other milk available.)

Offline gozalim

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #127 on: July 07, 2016, 11:46:35 AM »
One more semi-related point. Chazal tell us “Don’t look at the vessel, rather at its contents” [avos 4, 20]. An open milk bottle in a non-Jewish store without an official Mashgiach should not be considered Chalav Yisroel. Whether it would be worth their while to exchange it is immaterial, for that just makes it what we call Chalav Stam. To be Chalav Yisroel it would either need to be sealed, or have a Mashgiach who is יוצא ונכנס to create the proper mirsas [see Y.D. 115:1 & 118:1]. So for those commendable Yidden who are makpid on exclusively drinking Chalav Yisroel, look for a sealed bottle.

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #128 on: July 07, 2016, 12:41:17 PM »



"One more semi-related point. Chazal tell us “Don’t look at the vessel, rather at its contents” [avos 4, 20]. An open milk bottle in a non-Jewish store without an official Mashgiach should not be considered Chalav Yisroel. Whether it would be worth their while to exchange it is immaterial, for that just makes it what we call Chalav Stam. To be Chalav Yisroel it would either need to be sealed, or have a Mashgiach who is יוצא ונכנס to create the proper mirsas [see Y.D. 115:1 & 118:1]. So for those commendable Yidden who are makpid on exclusively drinking Chalav Yisroel, look for a sealed bottle."




That is not technically correct. It's not chalav stam, which means it was milked without supervision. This may have been milked under supervision, but we're afraid it might not have been.

This is not merely semantics; there is a different standard. The standards in קט"ו are more stringent than the standards in קי"ח. This is a קי"ח shailah, not a קט"ו shailah.

If it were not worth their while, based on קי"ח, I think it would be מותר based on the רמ"א who writes,

"הגה: ומיהו דווקא אם הוא דבר שיש לחוש שהחליפו ונהנה בחליפין (טור וב"י בשם תוס' ושאר פוסקים) או הוא יין ויש לחוש שאסרו בנגיעה אבל אם רואה הדבר ששלח או הפקיד והוא טוב כמו ששלח ולא נהנה העובד כוכבים אם החליפו לא חיישינן אף שהחותם מקולקל ועיין לקמן סוף סימן ק"ל מדינים אלו."

However, in this case they are נהנה בחליפין.

Offline gozalim

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #129 on: July 07, 2016, 01:41:31 PM »

That is not technically correct. It's not chalav stam, which means it was milked without supervision. This may have been milked under supervision, but we're afraid it might not have been.

This is not merely semantics; there is a different standard. The standards in קט"ו are more stringent than the standards in קי"ח. This is a קי"ח shailah, not a קט"ו shailah.

If it were not worth their while, based on קי"ח, I think it would be מותר based on the רמ"א who writes,

"הגה: ומיהו דווקא אם הוא דבר שיש לחוש שהחליפו ונהנה בחליפין (טור וב"י בשם תוס' ושאר פוסקים) או הוא יין ויש לחוש שאסרו בנגיעה אבל אם רואה הדבר ששלח או הפקיד והוא טוב כמו ששלח ולא נהנה העובד כוכבים אם החליפו לא חיישינן אף שהחותם מקולקל ועיין לקמן סוף סימן ק"ל מדינים אלו."

However, in this case they are נהנה בחליפין.
seems they took note of that and have a counter view.
Quote
באמת דבר זה צריך ביאור רחב. במשנה פרק א"מ איתא "חלב שחלבו עכו"ם", וכן הובא בטוש"ע. אולם הרמב"ם  פ"ג ממאכ"א הי"ג כתב "כל חלב הנמצא ביד עכו"ם אסור שמא עירב וכו'". וכן הובא נמי בא"ח. וכנראה שלא פליגי כלל, דמה לי שידענו בודאי שחלבו בעצמו, מה לי שלא ידענו מהיכן הם, סו"ס הם שלו ואפשר לו לערב בו חלב טמא. א"כ פשיטא שכל חלב שהוא ביד גוי ואיננו יודעים בודאי מהיכן היא, נכללה בתקנת חז"ל. וממילא אפי' אין דבר טמא בעדרו, צריך ליאסר כמו חלב עכו"ם ממש.
אולם שמעתי בשם גדול אחד שצידד דכיון שידענו ע"י הבקבוק שבודאי הי' כאן מעיקרא חלב ישראל, א"כ כבר יצאה מדין גזירת חלב עכו"ם וקיימא בדין חותמות. ומסברא אמר שלגבי חותמות מהני מה שאין כדאי להם לערב או להחליף. אולם הוא מוקשה בין מדינא ובין מסברא.
ע' בתו"ח כלל פ"א ססי' ב', וז"ל ואם ראה החליבה והניחו ביד עכו"ם יום או יומיים בלא חותם, אם יודע שיש לעכו"ם דבר טמא בעדרו אסור לאכול החלב ומותר לתקן הגבינות מאותו חלב, ואם יש שם חותם אחד הכל שרי עכ"ל. ומשמע להדיא שאם אין דבר טמא בעדרו מותר אף בלא חותם, ולא הדרינן לכללא של חלב עכו"ם שאסור אף בדליכא דבר טמא. ולכאו' הוא ראי' להתיר כנ"ל. אולם דא עקא, חדא דבמנחת יעקב שם סק"ו כתב דכ"ז הוא רק להתיר לעשות ממנו גבינות, דאי לשתות החלב בכל אופן אסור, ומבואר בהדיא בדבריו שם שעדיין נכללה בגזירת חלב עכו"ם. וממילא כדי להתיר ע"פ דברי התו"ח היינו מוכרחים לומר דנידון דידן הוי כאין דבר טמא בעדרו, וזה ודאי אינו דהא יש להם נמי "סתם חלב" ושאר דברים. וע"ע בשו"ת מנחת יצחק חלק א' סוף סימן קל"ח שדייק דפחות מיום או יומים הי' שרי אפי' יש דבר טמא בעדרו, וע"ש שביאר דהוא לאו דוקא אלא כ"ז שיש מירתת לאחלופי. אולם הוא בעצמו כתב הטעם מפני שסובר התו"ח דאמרינן "כאן נמצא כאן הי'" [ולכאו' לאו דוקא נקט כן, דהא כ"נ כ"ה הוא בגדר חזקה דהשתא לברר הלמפרע, וכאן איירינן בכעין חזקה דמעיקרא לברר אדהשתא ודוק], דהיינו שמוחזק לן במה שראה החליבה שיש כו"כ חלב, ועכשיו נמצא אותו חלב מסתמא שהיא היא. וכד תעיין אי"ז דומה כלל לנידון דידן, שלפי אמת כל הסברא לסמוך על הבקבוק הוא פלא, דאיזה עדות וחזקה יש מחמת סימני הבקבוק? והוא ש"ס ערוכה בסוף יבמות קטו: דלכו"ע חיישינן שמא פינן אפי' לקולא ולא משגחינן כלל על סימן שעל החבית [אם לא מצד אישתלויי או לפנחי' דלא שייך כאן כמובן ואיפכא יותר מסתבר להיפך], וכ"ש בדידן שהוא עומד שם כדי שיפנוהו הקונים דודאי אמרינן שפינן. וממילא ליכא כלל חזקה.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #130 on: July 07, 2016, 01:44:57 PM »
Not saying that it would make a difference halachically, but I heard an unverified rumor that in light of the concerns people are having with the milk being switched, the 10 locations only use CY milk. Anyone else hear this?
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Offline beeweegee

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #131 on: July 07, 2016, 01:46:30 PM »
Not saying that it would make a difference halachically, but I heard an unverified rumor that in light of the concerns people are having with the milk being switched, the 10 locations only use CY milk. Anyone else hear this?
IIRC, that's what the sign says.

Offline gozalim

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #132 on: July 07, 2016, 01:51:41 PM »
Not saying that it would make a difference halachically, but I heard an unverified rumor that in light of the concerns people are having with the milk being switched, the 10 locations only use CY milk. Anyone else hear this?
the VIN article/chof-k statement says that.
thing is, while it's definitely a major improvement practically, and lowers the possibility of messing up, there still is the possibility of bringing in from outside. after all, what is the procedure if they run out? is there a manager who has the authority to send someone out with a company CC to the grocery for a few bottles? will they know which store to find CY in?
(in the case of EP/Bedford it's about a mile to the closest CY store, and that not the brand they're using)
[wasn't there once an incident in a 'CY' Coffee Bean where a manager was restocking at ralph's ?]

back to the point: even if the exchange is unlikely, the above shitos mean that, the fact that a possibility exists,even somewhat remote, places this bottle in non-חותם status.
relying on the 'odds' against it is roughly the same thing הג' רמ"פ does. (with above debate as to whether it's exactly equivelant, or just roughly)
essentially we turn the 'practical' חשש of חלב טמאה into a 'technical' status of ח"י. which -if your makpid on CY- you do turn it. and this seems to fall a drop short...
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 01:56:04 PM by gozalim »

Offline coralsnake

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #133 on: July 07, 2016, 02:02:08 PM »
Not saying that it would make a difference halachically, but I heard an unverified rumor that in light of the concerns people are having with the milk being switched, the 10 locations only use CY milk. Anyone else hear this?
says that in the original PR:
http://jpupdates.com/2016/06/08/starbucks-testing-kosher-certified-dairy-at-10-stores-in-ny-nj-in-bid-to-attract-jewish-customers/

"The stores that will have Cholov Yisroel will not have Cholov Stam — which is ordinary milk — in order to prevent a mix up, Rabbi Holland said."
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 02:27:29 PM by coralsnake »
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Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #134 on: July 07, 2016, 02:04:29 PM »
seems they took note of that and have a counter view.
"אולם דא עקא, חדא דבמנחת יעקב שם סק"ו כתב דכ"ז הוא רק להתיר לעשות ממנו גבינות, דאי לשתות החלב בכל אופן אסור, ומבואר בהדיא בדבריו שם שעדיין נכללה בגזירת חלב עכו"ם"

Not a good diyuk. It's assur to drink the milk because there's a chashash, not because of the gezeirah of cholov akum.

The rest then falls apart once yiu realize it's a chashash they switched it, not the old gezeirah of C.A.

The Shulchan Aruch says b'feirush that unsealed milk is in the category of chosamos, not cholov akum.

יין ובשר וחתיכת דג שאין בו סימן שהפקיד או שלח ביד עובד כוכבים צריך שני חותמות אבל יין מבושל ושכר או יין שעירבו בו דברים אחרים כגון דבש וכן החומץ וחלב ומורייס ופת וגבינה וכל שאיסורו מדברי סופרים שהפקידו ביד עובד כוכבים מותר בחותם אחד

He is putting חלב in the category of חותמות.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 02:21:23 PM by Cheesecake »

Offline B.D.Da'ehu

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Offline joe1234

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #136 on: August 18, 2016, 12:56:35 PM »
following

Offline mgarfin

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Online Mordyk

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #138 on: September 30, 2016, 01:04:17 PM »
is this still ongoing? do they still have cholov yisroel?
#TYH

Offline Jkhein

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #139 on: September 18, 2017, 06:47:48 PM »
Starbucks howell has a sign that as of 9/25 they will not be serving pride of the farm milk anymore.