Author Topic: Silent Killer  (Read 213507 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #640 on: June 25, 2017, 04:31:24 PM »
You argue as if there is still a debate to be had. When you have issues such as this the lowest commom denominator must be that the benefit of removing the stigma far outweighs any possible benefit you would have from keeping it. Thats not an emotional argument. Thats a rational well thought out and proven argument. You can keep thinking what you wish. The blood of those who refused to seek help because of the stigma is on your hands though.

Tell your story to the children of a mother who refused to go to rehab because she didn't want to ruin her kids chance at good shiduchim. She instead chose to die and have people have rachmunus on her yesomim. You can verify that one story...and continue to allpw the stigma to continue. Their blood is on the hands of those who perpetuate the stigma.
Yet you continue to make only emotional arguments without presenting ANY rationale or proof. If the blood of those who did not seek help is on my hands for saying there should be a balance, the blood of those who became addicted due to removal of stigma will be on yours. That is very mean of you to not care at all about more people becoming addicted. Imagine how many lives can be ruined by that.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #641 on: June 25, 2017, 04:33:35 PM »
Yet you continue to make only emotional arguments without presenting ANY rationale or proof. If the blood of those who did not seek help is on my hands for saying there should be a balance, the blood of those who became addicted due to removal of stigma will be on yours. That is very mean of you to not care at all about more people becoming addicted. Imagine how many lives can be ruined by that.
How many lives can be ruined by removing a stigma to seek help when someone is addicted? Are you listening to yourself.

You are correct. We should ostracize all who seek help and atigamtize them and their families. They should all be forced to move to an Ir Miklat and be banned from our communities. I agree totally. You have convinced me.

Youre probably the head of the Vaad le'mishmeres tohar hamachne, right?
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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #642 on: June 25, 2017, 04:34:05 PM »
Your statement have proven that you have zero understanding of addiction. You think a silly thing like a stigma can stop someone who has started down the path towards addiction. The only one it helps, maybe, is the person who never starts.

And that person who never starts because of the stigma is not worthy of our consideration?

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #643 on: June 25, 2017, 04:34:27 PM »
Your statement have proven that you have zero understanding of addiction. You think a silly thing like a stigma can stop someone who has started down the path towards addiction. The only one it helps, maybe, is the person who never starts.
That is very true that it will help only the person who never starts. Halevai it should work to prevent anyone from starting. Do you really think that there are no people who overcame their taava to start by their being a stigma? That is why keeping a balance is so important unless the purpose is to keep the rehab centers busy. We are much better off with fewer people starting.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #644 on: June 25, 2017, 04:36:01 PM »
How many lives can be ruined by removing a stigma to seek help when someone is addicted? Are you listening to yourself.
All of those for whom the stigma helped them overcome an urge to start down that path. Do you have numbers for that? Or do you mean a stigma against seeking help? I think the real stigma is against the addiction itself and that people refusing to seek help is coming from that. The answer to that may be to have people understand that there is a much worse stigma to remaining addicted than there is to getting help. I do not know the answer to that. It is part of the need balance.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 04:39:04 PM by aygart »
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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #645 on: June 25, 2017, 04:37:09 PM »
How many lives can be ruined by removing a stigma to seek help when someone is addicted? Are you listening to yourself.

The stigma to seek help is an unfortunate byproduct of the stigma of abusing substances.  In an ideal world, the stigma of abusing substances would remain in full force, and it would be clear to everyone that despite that stigma, the cost of avoiding help is worse than what people will think.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #646 on: June 25, 2017, 04:38:42 PM »
All of those for whom the stigma helped them overcome an urge to start down that path. Do you have numbers for that?
You cant prove that numerically. And because you cant quantify it youre making it bigger than it really is. The hallmark of an addict is that they rarely if ever anticipate the consequences of their actions.
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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #647 on: June 25, 2017, 04:39:43 PM »
You cant prove that numerically. And because you cant quantify it youre making it bigger than it really is. The hallmark of an addict is that they rarely if ever anticipate the consequences of their actions.

Because they can't be quantified they are not worthy of our consideration?

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #648 on: June 25, 2017, 04:41:31 PM »
The stigma to seek help is an unfortunate byproduct of the stigma of abusing substances.  In an ideal world, the stigma of abusing substances would remain in full force, and it would be clear to everyone that despite that stigma, the cost of avoiding help is worse than what people will think.
So do you stop bochrim at weddings, even if theyre over 21 from drinking to excess? Do you frown when you see a 15 year old smoking? Do you condone the balabus who thinks its cool to smoke his e-cig at the chasunah reception. No. Of course you dont. Because you dont recognize the addictive behavior until it has begun. So your talk of stigma before one begins is nonsene.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #649 on: June 25, 2017, 04:42:06 PM »
You cant prove that numerically. And because you cant quantify it youre making it bigger than it really is. The hallmark of an addict is that they rarely if ever anticipate the consequences of their actions.
Am I? If it can't be quantified then maybe even I am not making it big enough? If your arguement is so rational and proven like you say then you should be able to offer SOME rationale and proof instead of telling me I have blood on my hands. That sounds like the Dem argument obout Obamacare, not a well reasoned proof.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #650 on: June 25, 2017, 04:45:52 PM »
So do you stop bochrim at weddings, even if theyre over 21 from drinking to excess?
If I could I would. As it happens I am not at that many weddings where it happens even though I know that it does. How should someone stop it if it is happening. If it were a wedding where I had the authority to do so I would remove the liquor.
Do you frown when you see a 15 year old smoking?
Absolutely!
Do you condone the balabus who thinks its cool to smoke his e-cig at the chasunah reception.
No I vilify it.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #651 on: June 25, 2017, 04:46:09 PM »
Am I? If it can't be quantified then maybe even I am not making it big enough? If your arguement is so rational and proven like you say then you should be able to offer SOME rationale and proof instead of telling me I have blood on my hands. That sounds like the Dem argument obout Obamacare, not a well reasoned proof.
You cannot quantify the number of people who have not started a behavior because of a stigma. Now I'm unclear what stigma you are talking about. The stigma that getting help causes your family "name" to be sullied is what is being discussed. Stigma as a prevention is basically throwing your kid out when he or she is OTD. So what exactly are you advocating?
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #652 on: June 25, 2017, 04:47:29 PM »
You cannot quantify the number of people who have not started a behavior because of a stigma. Now I'm unclear what stigma you are talking about. The stigma that getting help causes your family "name" to be sullied is what is being discussed. Stigma as a prevention is basically throwing your kid out when he or she is OTD. So what exactly are you advocating?
Is it the going for help that has a stigma or the fact that they are an addict and need the help?
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #653 on: June 25, 2017, 04:49:40 PM »
If I could I would. As it happens I am not at that many weddings where it happens even though I know that it does. How should someone stop it if it is happening.
Stigmatize that family, the rav hamachshir, the caterer, the hall. Take away the bottle theyre hiding in the coatroom. Demand that the bar close and not serve anyone who appears intoxicated. There is plenty you can do. You stand by an wring your hands saying "what should I do?"
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #654 on: June 25, 2017, 04:51:01 PM »
Is it the going for help that has a stigma or the fact that they are an addict and need the help?
אין בית אשר אין שם מת. So having an addict is one stigma. Seeking help is another.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #655 on: June 25, 2017, 04:53:55 PM »
Stigmatize that family, the rav hamachshir, the caterer, the hall.
That I do.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #656 on: June 25, 2017, 04:56:57 PM »
Here is a recent reoccurring and typical scenario: Parents of daughter at HIGH risk of serious drug addiction (i.E.. emotional issues, rebellious, no family or school support, basically living on streets, zero self esteem etc etc etc) will not allow her the help she needs because it involves a "goyisheh program"...

Yes, if cv she succumbs, it will be the "stigma" to blame.

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #657 on: June 25, 2017, 04:58:29 PM »
אין בית אשר אין שם מת. So having an addict is one stigma. Seeking help is another.
I would think that is only fear that people will know about the addiction problem. This would mean it is the fear of the stigma of having been an addict which is preventing these people from seeking the needed help. The strategy for that may be to remove the stigma of being a recovered addict and not
break the stigma associated with addiction.
We should glorify those who OVERCOME addiction and respect them.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #658 on: June 25, 2017, 04:59:40 PM »
Here is a recent reoccurring and typical scenario: Parents of daughter at HIGH risk of serious drug addiction (i.E.. emotional issues, rebellious, no family or school support, basically living on streets, zero self esteem etc etc etc) will not allow her the help she needs because it involves a "goyisheh program"...

Yes, if cv she succumbs, it will be the "stigma" to blame.

That to would be the stigma of getting help for emotional issues etc not
the stigma associated with addiction.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #659 on: June 25, 2017, 05:03:44 PM »
That to would be the stigma of getting help for emotional issues etc not
Once again you seem to think emotional issues and addiction and medical causes behind emotional issues are all separate issues.
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