Author Topic: Flights cancelled - strike possible in the coming days/weeks at El Al  (Read 12105 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Flights cancelled - strike posibble in the coming days/weeks at El Al
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2016, 09:24:06 PM »
I didn't say it was simple. I said both sides blame each other which means it's just another day at (the $%& show that is) El Al.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ar

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Re: Flights cancelled - strike posibble in the coming days/weeks at El Al
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2016, 09:32:04 PM »
I didn't say it was simple. I said both sides blame each other which means it's just another day at (the $%& show that is) El Al.
You wrote:
For the past couple of years El Al has been wet-leasing planes from other airlines to cover their routes.
Not true. They leased these planes because of the pilot issue - not to cover existing routes.

Dozens of readers have sent me horror stories about these airlines and I’ve made several posts about the situation.
Privilege Style is a 777-200 - we can argue about if it's better than Elal's 747
Hi Fly is 2 brand new A330 which is comparable to a LH/LX/TK plane - MUCH better than Elal 747

The pilots blame El Al for charging passengers a premium while shifting them onto low cost carriers that cost El Al far less than flying their own aircraft and employees.

Pilots are upset... but nothing to do with LY charging a premium to customers to have them fly low cost airlines. They couldn't care less about that
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 09:36:22 PM by ar »

Offline YOSEF

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Re: Flights cancelled - strike posibble in the coming days/weeks at El Al
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2016, 09:35:27 PM »
You wrote:
For the past couple of years El Al has been wet-leasing planes from other airlines to cover their routes.
Not true. They leased these planes because of the pilot issue - not to cover more routes.
Who said more routes?

They leased them to cover the ones they had, which weren't being covered for some reason (read: pilot strike).
Dozens of readers have sent me horror stories about these airlines and Iíve made several posts about the situation.
Privilege Style is a 777-200 - we can argue about if it's better than Elal's 747
Hi Fly is 2 brand new A330 which is comparable to a LH/LX/TK plane - MUCH better than Elal 747
So people sending him emails etc don't exist???
The pilots blame El Al for charging passengers a premium while shifting them onto low cost carriers that cost El Al far less than flying their own aircraft and employees.

Pilots are upset... but nothing to do with LY charging a premium to customers to have them fly low cost airlines. They couldn't care less about that
You missed the point of that one. Its just finger pointing.

Offline ar

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Re: Flights cancelled - strike posibble in the coming days/weeks at El Al
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2016, 09:36:43 PM »
Who said more routes?

They leased them to cover the ones they had.

Thanks. I corrected my mistake

Offline Dan

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Re: Flights cancelled - strike posibble in the coming days/weeks at El Al
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2016, 09:40:23 PM »
Good grief.
For the past couple of years El Al has been wet-leasing planes from other airlines to cover their routes.
Not true. They leased these planes because of the pilot issue - not to cover more routes.
Who said "more routes."
I said to cover their routes. Other airlines covered their routes for the past 2 years, this is a statement of fact.

Dozens of readers have sent me horror stories about these airlines and Iíve made several posts about the situation.
Privilege Style is a 777-200 - we can argue about if it's better than Elal's 747
Hi Fly is 2 brand new A330 which is comparable to a LH/LX/TK plane - MUCH better than Elal 747
I haven't been on El Al, Privilege Style, Hi Fly, or Euro Atlantic. I passed along that I have received dozens of emails from people who have been unpleasantly surprised at the seat, at the crew, at the IFE, etc. This is a statement of fact.

The pilots blame El Al for charging passengers a premium while shifting them onto low cost carriers that cost El Al far less than flying their own aircraft and employees.

Pilots are upset... but nothing to do with LY charging a premium to customers to have them fly low cost airlines. They couldn't care less about that
It's a quote from the pilot's union, not mine,
"This is a methodical plan by El Al's management arising solely from business considerations. It is being carried out at the expense of the passengers who pay full fares and expect to fly on an Israeli airline operated by Israeli flight attendants, technicians and pilots. The Histadrut understood that the national carrier had become a brokerage company without passengers being informed and at the expense of all its workers. The blame laid on the pilots is false and baseless, as has become clear many times. In the past few days it has been demonstrated that the attempt to put the responsibility on the pilots is baseless, and the workers and the Histadrut have realized that in order to put an end to the damage being caused to the airline it is necessary to request the declaration of a labor dispute."
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

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Re: Flights cancelled - strike posibble in the coming days/weeks at El Al
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2016, 09:40:57 PM »
Who said more routes?

They leased them to cover the ones they had, which weren't being covered for some reason (read: pilot strike).So people sending him emails etc don't exist???You missed the point of that one. Its just finger pointing.
Lol, beat me.
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Offline ar

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Re: Flights cancelled - strike posibble in the coming days/weeks at El Al
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2016, 09:52:33 PM »
Good grief.

I meant existing routes - while these wet leased planes were used the 747's were sitting idly in El Al's hanger in TLV.

Bottom line, if you look into this matter you'll see that it's very different from how you described it. The pilots union are killing El Al and each side is trying to outsmart the other leaving the passengers stranded because of their disagreements. This has been going on for years and it's coming to a nasty end.

Offline Dan

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Re: Flights cancelled - strike posibble in the coming days/weeks at El Al
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2016, 09:55:15 PM »
I meant existing routes - while these wet leased planes were used the 747's were sitting idly in El Al's hanger in TLV.

Bottom line, if you look into this matter you'll see that it's very different from how you described it. The pilots union are killing El Al and each side is trying to outsmart the other leaving the passengers stranded because of their disagreements. This has been going on for years and it's coming to a nasty end.
Other airlines covered their routes for the past 2 years, this is a statement of fact, not conjecture. I'm not assigning blame, the airline and union are famously dysfunctional and are why many avoid them.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ar

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Re: Flights cancelled - strike posibble in the coming days/weeks at El Al
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2016, 10:06:31 PM »
Other airlines covered their routes for the past 2 years, this is a statement of fact, not conjecture. I'm not assigning blame, the airline and union are famously dysfunctional and are why many avoid them.

Agreed. I guess I just know this story with the pilots union and I strongly believe that they are at fault here and El Al had no choice but to act like this.

With that said, EL AL is not the most normal functioning airline but in this case I feel bad for them, they really have no way out of this sick pilots union but to do all this cray stuff or they'll go bankrupt.
 

Offline 159dallas

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Re: Flights cancelled - strike posibble in the coming days/weeks at El Al
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2016, 10:08:40 PM »
Ok so my take on this is simple it doesn't really matter whose fault it is beacuse everything ends up being pushed onto the passengers normal functioning airlines solve there own problems internally and make sure it doesn't interfere with normal operations.

Offline Dan

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Re: Flights cancelled - strike posibble in the coming days/weeks at El Al
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2016, 10:11:28 PM »
Ok so my take on this is simple it doesn't really matter whose fault it is beacuse everything ends up being pushed onto the passengers normal functioning airlines solve there own problems internally and make sure it doesn't interfere with normal operations.
That's mine as well :)
#sorrynotsorry about your union issues.
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Offline 159dallas

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Re: Flights cancelled - strike posibble in the coming days/weeks at El Al
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2016, 10:14:33 PM »
And it so happens to be that AA had union issues and din't start cancelling flights. Also how would a strike effect the airline in all seriousness
would it mean the cancellation of all flights?

Offline yandmk

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Re: Flights cancelled - strike posibble in the coming days/weeks at El Al
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2016, 05:36:29 AM »
Privilege Style is a 777-200 - we can argue about if it's better than Elal's 747
Hi Fly is 2 brand new A330 which is comparable to a LH/LX/TK plane - MUCH better than Elal 747
Well passengers who actually flew with them have a very different story than what you "assume". One of my clients who is a gold member with El Al and flies their business class very often, sent me this message after being placed on a flight from Hi Fly in September:

"I have a question. There's something wrong with my internet so I couldn't reach Elal but we were really upset at the return flight that we had. The seats were small and didn't lie down, the food was cold and awful and not the hechsher that we usually get so we didn't get food. Is it possible to complain and say that we want a part refund?"

Me: "Because of the swap to Hi Fly?"

"Yes. It was awful and I didn't sleep a wink which is why I specially spend all the money to go business"

A few weeks later El Al answered her complaint saying that wetleasing is "common practice" in the airline industry and offered 200 miles compensation (wow!) as a token of understanding:

Dear Mrs. --------,
 
Thank you for contacting El Al's customer relations.
 
As a result of operational issues and in an attempt to address the continuous demands of our clientele, some of our flights from and to New York will be operated by the Portuguese carrier, Hi Fly.
 
Under the general terms of carriage, aircraft leasing is a common practice in the airline industry and is designed to ensure that we fulfill our obligations to the passengers and bring them to their final destination.
 
We are sorry for your disappointment and the inconvenience caused, as it is not our intention to cause discomfort of any kind to our passengers. We do appreciate and thank you for your continued devotion to El Al. However, it is important to acknowledge that the company that was selected to carry out the service is an airline which holds all licenses and permits that are required to carry the necessary operations. In addition, the airline has received approval from the Israeli authorities. Your feedback concerning the matter was forwarded to management for review.
 
As a token of our understanding I have credited your frequent flyer account GL -------- & Mr. -----'s frequent flyer account ------------- with 200 points, each, which may be used towards future bonus tickets, upgrades etc. This may take up to 7 business days. The points are valid for three years.
 
Let me take this opportunity to thank you for your continued patronage and we hope for your understanding.
 

Yours sincerely,
-------------- - Customer Relations
 
Fax: 972-3-7602233
Email: customer@elal.co.il
EL-AL ISRAEL AIRLINES LTD

She then wrote to me regarding booking her next flight:
"I understand that they can lease other planes but it needs to be at the same value as what we paid for. I'm considering my next flights and not sure I want to take a chance with Elal. I don't need 200 points when I paid full price in cash for business seats and received a less than inferior situation"


So what was that about Hi Fly being "MUCH better than El Al 747"?

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Re: Flights cancelled - strike posibble in the coming days/weeks at El Al
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2016, 08:41:49 AM »
http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/98247

Hey Dan.
I'm shocked that you are so clueless about what's going on regarding these leased planes and El Al's pilots.

In short, EL AL has a long dispute with its pilot union and it has been getting nasty over the last few years. Pilots are doing crazy things in order to gain leverage. For instant pilots often cancel the last minute leaving Elal stuck with paying more for their (co worker) friends in order to fly their planes resulting in all pilots secretly collaborating to make more money etc etc - real crazy Jewish shtick and fighting back and forth.

So El Al tried to fight back with these leased planes that are not officially operated by LY and therefore they can use other pilots which are not in union..

Bottom line, please do your research and you'll see that it's not so simple as you described it in the DD post.
A well run company with competent leadership doesn't end up in this situation. Pilots don't behave childishly like this if they're working for good leaders. You don't see this behavior, on the part of pilots or an airline wet leasing to get around them instead of just negotiating a good contract very often, the pilots simply strike until they reach an acceptable agreement with management and both sides move on to run their company. Austrian about 10 years ago is the last time I recall seeing the wet lease strategy used to undercut pilots. I've never flown El Al and don't have a dog in this hunt, but I do know a good bit about leadership and pilots and your description of the issue just reinforces that this is a failure of El Al management at the highest levels, the pilot's behavior is simply a symptom of a much bigger problem of poor leadership.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Flights cancelled - strike posibble in the coming days/weeks at El Al
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2016, 09:16:55 AM »
It boils down to a company culture that doesn't appreciate their customers as their greatest asset.