Author Topic: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families  (Read 138447 times)

Offline Deal Guy

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #80 on: April 26, 2017, 02:11:24 AM »
To eliminate the need to calculate what goes on each of those lines.
The computer does a fine job right now.
You still need to enter all family members' name's, birthdays, and socials, as well as income. After that, the software does a fine job calculating all deductions and exemptions. There is no point to get rid of exemptions for each family member, and to treat small and large families alike with the exact standard deduction, just to simply say that it works on a postcard, when we don't even use postcards anymore.

Offline EJB

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #81 on: April 26, 2017, 07:19:03 AM »
The computer does a fine job right now.
You still need to enter all family members' name's, birthdays, and socials, as well as income. After that, the software does a fine job calculating all deductions and exemptions. There is no point to get rid of exemptions for each family member, and to treat small and large families alike with the exact standard deduction, just to simply say that it works on a postcard, when we don't even use postcards anymore.

The more complex the code is, the more opportunity there is for loopholes.

Offline EJB

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #82 on: April 26, 2017, 07:24:26 AM »
Why should a family of 7 pay much less taxes than a family of 4? (There are arguments both ways ) You're treating this like a negative byproduct of simplification. I say it's by design. This isn't hard to implement in the most simple tax  system. 

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #83 on: April 26, 2017, 07:59:17 AM »
The computer does a fine job right now.
You still need to enter all family members' name's, birthdays, and socials, as well as income. After that, the software does a fine job calculating all deductions and exemptions. There is no point to get rid of exemptions for each family member, and to treat small and large families alike with the exact standard deduction, just to simply say that it works on a postcard, when we don't even use postcards anymore.
That is if your complexity is limited to family size.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Deal Guy

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #84 on: April 26, 2017, 01:20:07 PM »
The more complex the code is, the more opportunity there is for loopholes.
That is if your complexity is limited to family size.
I agree that the more complex the code is, the more opportunity there is for loopholes. If they want to fix loopholes, then go ahead.
But, it is much harder and costly to support 1 child then to support 5 children. Therefore the larger family should be given a little more opportunity not to have to pay tax.
I can't justify raising the standard deduction for all married couples to 24,000, and then any penny you make above that to be taxed at 12%, since there would no longer be exemptions of $4,050 for each member of the family.

Currently a married couple with 1 child can make $24,750 tax free, while a married couple with 5 kids can make  $40,950 tax free.

So to simplify things and use the 10% bracket, that is a savings of around $1500 of tax on the $15000 of taxable income.

I think anyone will agree  that it costs more than $1500 a year to raise 5 children vs only 1 child no mstter what religion or race they may be from. So a parent with 5 children deserves to have more exemptions then a couple with 1 or 2 kids. I can't understand how it would be fair to eliminate exemptions.

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #85 on: April 26, 2017, 01:38:28 PM »
I agree that the more complex the code is, the more opportunity there is for loopholes. If they want to fix loopholes, then go ahead.
But, it is much harder and costly to support 1 child then to support 5 children. Therefore the larger family should be given a little more opportunity not to have to pay tax.
I can't justify raising the standard deduction for all married couples to 24,000, and then any penny you make above that to be taxed at 12%, since there would no longer be exemptions of $4,050 for each member of the family.

Currently a married couple with 1 child can make $24,750 tax free, while a married couple with 5 kids can make  $40,950 tax free.

So to simplify things and use the 10% bracket, that is a savings of around $1500 of tax on the $15000 of taxable income.

I think anyone will agree  that it costs more than $1500 a year to raise 5 children vs only 1 child no mstter what religion or race they may be from. So a parent with 5 children deserves to have more exemptions then a couple with 1 or 2 kids. I can't understand how it would be fair to eliminate exemptions.
You totally missed my point. The complexity of the tax code has nothing at all to do with family size, exemptions, and standard deductions. Those can easily be included on a postcard sized return. The complexity is when you start dealing with business and partnerships as well as various investment vehicle and the like. There are plenty of people who need a box to mail a tax return.
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Offline EJB

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #86 on: April 26, 2017, 01:51:35 PM »
I agree that the more complex the code is, the more opportunity there is for loopholes. If they want to fix loopholes, then go ahead.
But, it is much harder and costly to support 1 child then to support 5 children. Therefore the larger family should be given a little more opportunity not to have to pay tax.
I can't justify raising the standard deduction for all married couples to 24,000, and then any penny you make above that to be taxed at 12%, since there would no longer be exemptions of $4,050 for each member of the family.

Currently a married couple with 1 child can make $24,750 tax free, while a married couple with 5 kids can make  $40,950 tax free.

So to simplify things and use the 10% bracket, that is a savings of around $1500 of tax on the $15000 of taxable income.

I think anyone will agree  that it costs more than $1500 a year to raise 5 children vs only 1 child no mstter what religion or race they may be from. So a parent with 5 children deserves to have more exemptions then a couple with 1 or 2 kids.i can't understand how it would be fair to eliminate exemptions.

I understand larger families have more expenses, but not everyone agrees that should mean they should pay less in taxes. That may not be a goal of the new tax code, whenever that happens.

Offline yelped

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #87 on: April 26, 2017, 08:25:44 PM »
I understand larger families have more expenses, but not everyone agrees that should mean they should pay less in taxes. That may not be a goal of the new tax code, whenever that happens.
Well, having more children is beneficial for society and for the economy, so there's the reasoning behind it. Besides just being fair.

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #88 on: April 27, 2017, 12:37:32 PM »
I understand larger families have more expenses, but not everyone agrees that should mean they should pay less in taxes.
If Tax is intended to account for means, than a larger family is relatively poorer than a single/couple with the same income

Offline yitzf

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #89 on: April 27, 2017, 12:42:24 PM »
Well, having more children is beneficial for society and for the economy, so there's the reasoning behind it. Besides just being fair.
Absolutely. They should charge social security based on how many kids you have. The more workers you leave over to pay for your retirement the less you should pay.

Offline ckmk47

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #90 on: April 27, 2017, 01:22:15 PM »
Absolutely. They should charge social security based on how many kids you have. The more workers you leave over to pay for your retirement the less you should pay.
+1  ;D
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Offline EJB

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #91 on: April 27, 2017, 08:29:57 PM »
If Tax is intended to account for means, than a larger family is relatively poorer than a single/couple with the same income

I don't think this is completely true.

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #92 on: April 27, 2017, 09:10:27 PM »
I don't think this is completely true.
they are not necessarily exponentially poorer proportionate to the number of children (unless paying yeshivah tuition :P ) but they are somewhat poorer accounting just for food and clothing

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #93 on: September 27, 2017, 04:39:56 PM »
I was reading today that they plan to get rid of the $4050 exemption per person in the family, as i predicted.
But being that there will be alot of back and forth in congress regarding the tax bill, NOW IS THE TIME TO REACH OUT TO YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND SENATOR.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #94 on: September 27, 2017, 04:48:10 PM »
No exemption at all?
I just found a new supply of forks!

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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #96 on: September 27, 2017, 04:59:53 PM »
According to CNN, it's gone.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/27/news/economy/tax-reform-framework/index.html
They are doubling the standard deduction. So basically getting rid of child exemptions.
I just found a new supply of forks!

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #97 on: September 27, 2017, 05:02:00 PM »
I was reading today that they plan to get rid of the $4050 exemption per person in the family, as i predicted.
But being that there will be alot of back and forth in congress regarding the tax bill, NOW IS THE TIME TO REACH OUT TO YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND SENATOR.

In concert with doubling the standard deduction, it evens out for average families. Obviously this plan is devastating to people with itemized deductions- losing the exemption, losing state tax deduction, plus whatever else may happen with the undefined changes to the bracket ranges. Who does it help? The very highest income earners (drop in tax rate), and the AMT earners (were not getting these deductions anyway, so the lower rates help), and the people of average incomes living in states with low taxes who probably don't itemize (i.e. Red States).

That's the beauty of it - the design is almost surgical in carving out crony groups and supporters for benefits. FTR, I detest the strategy. How taxation would be most fairly distributed is debatable, but political alignment and cronyism is definitely not one of the fair metrics.

they are not necessarily exponentially poorer proportionate to the number of children (unless paying yeshivah tuition :P ) but they are somewhat poorer accounting just for food and clothing

I think the calculated cost per year is estimated between $12,000 and $14,000 per child per year (for an average American family) based on dividing the "cost to raise a child" by 17 years. Which is significant for the average American family.
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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #98 on: September 27, 2017, 05:15:16 PM »
In concert with doubling the standard deduction, it evens out for average families. Obviously this plan is devastating to people with itemized deductions- losing the exemption, losing state tax deduction, plus whatever else may happen with the undefined changes to the bracket ranges. Who does it help? The very highest income earners (drop in tax rate), and the AMT earners (were not getting these deductions anyway, so the lower rates help), and the people of average incomes living in states with low taxes who probably don't itemize (i.e. Red States).

That's the beauty of it - the design is almost surgical in carving out crony groups and supporters for benefits. FTR, I detest the strategy. How taxation would be most fairly distributed is debatable, but political alignment and cronyism is definitely not one of the fair metrics.

I think the calculated cost per year is estimated between $12,000 and $14,000 per child per year (for an average American family) based on dividing the "cost to raise a child" by 17 years. Which is significant for the average American family.
AMT can often be a result of larger families.
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Offline hachover

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #99 on: September 27, 2017, 05:31:34 PM »
AMT can often be a result of larger families.

Yeah, but larger families are not that common. I don't believe they are a targeted group. It will be difficult to analyze whether they will be helped or hurt by this until the bracket ranges are spelled out. Most likely outcome is hurt.
I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.