Immigrants day

[cholent]

No question, we're discussing @yuneeq's statement that those that don't pay taxes are a huge drain to public funds and @as2's response to that
What I was trying to say was that if they want to pay taxes they can become a citizen (albeit through lots of Shvitzing) and not be a drain on public funds (which is where the mention of my family came in) - without stealing identities, apparently I'm being told that there are those that can't for whatever reason become citizens yet still don't want to pay taxes and not be a drain on public funds.

Becoming a legal immigrant does not automatically equal not being a drain on public funds. On the contrary, they can then qualify for EITC as well as government aid programs

[JoeyShmoe]

My response was to a statement, which I interpreted to imply, that illegals are a drain to public funds. To which I replied that it isn't always the case but generally I'd agree. I think we all agree on the bottom line here.

Seems like we're all in agreement

[yuneeq]

Becoming a legal immigrant does not automatically equal not being a drain on public funds. On the contrary, they can then qualify for EITC as well as government aid programs

Usually you need to prove that you have a decent job lined up.
So yeah unfortunate things can happen to anyone but by our current qualifications the vast majority of legal immigrants don't become a net drain.

[JoeyShmoe]

Becoming a legal immigrant does not automatically equal not being a drain on public funds. On the contrary, they can then qualify for EITC as well as government aid programs

True, this isn't the point of this discussion though.

FTR one of the first parts of the process of becoming a citizen (before applying for a green card) is having a legal citizen "Sponsor" the person applying for citizenship. For the next 3 years or until they become an actual citizen (not a green card holder) - whichever comes first - they can't apply for any government programs whatsoever (I just happily sponsored someone a couple of weeks ago)

[skyguy918]

True, this isn't the point of this discussion though.

FTR one of the first parts of the process of becoming a citizen (before applying for a green card) is having a legal citizen "Sponsor" the person applying for citizenship. For the next 3 years or until they become an actual citizen (not a green card holder) - whichever comes first - they can't apply for any government programs whatsoever (I just happily sponsored someone a couple of weeks ago)

My parents sponsored a nanny/housekeeper a bunch of years ago. She went on to become a citizen and is now a nurse practitioner, or manager or whatever it's called. Pretty good decision I guess.

[cholent]

True, this isn't the point of this discussion though.

FTR one of the first parts of the process of becoming a citizen (before applying for a green card) is having a legal citizen "Sponsor" the person applying for citizenship. For the next 3 years or until they become an actual citizen (not a green card holder) - whichever comes first - they can't apply for any government programs whatsoever (I just happily sponsored someone a couple of weeks ago)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/02/03/trumps-draft-plan-to-cut-off-food-stamps-for-immigrants-could-cause-some-u-s-citizens-to-go-hungry/?utm_term=.d7867faee18b

From that article:
Under long-standing policy, the government has not considered receipt of nutrition, medical or housing benefits when evaluating if someone has become a public charge for deportation purposes. While the federal government has prohibited even legal immigrants from accessing many of these programs as soon as they arrive in the United States, some states allow access if they have children under 18 years old. And some federal benefits, such as WIC, the school lunch program and emergency Medicaid, are not restricted. Practically speaking, almost no one is deported for receiving such benefits unless there’s evidence they deceived the government at the time they immigrated.

As of now, no sponsor has ever been asked to repay the government for the cost of these programs

[JoeyShmoe]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/02/03/trumps-draft-plan-to-cut-off-food-stamps-for-immigrants-could-cause-some-u-s-citizens-to-go-hungry/?utm_term=.d7867faee18b

From that article:
Under long-standing policy, the government has not considered receipt of nutrition, medical or housing benefits when evaluating if someone has become a public charge for deportation purposes. While the federal government has prohibited even legal immigrants from accessing many of these programs as soon as they arrive in the United States, some states allow access if they have children under 18 years old. And some federal benefits, such as WIC, the school lunch program and emergency Medicaid, are not restricted. Practically speaking, almost no one is deported for receiving such benefits unless there’s evidence they deceived the government at the time they immigrated.

As of now, no sponsor has ever been asked to repay the government for the cost of these programs

Still not the point of the discussion you quoted me in...

[cholent]

Still not the point of the discussion you quoted me in...

I disagree. My point is that both legal and illegal immigrants can be a financial drain on the system. I think that Trump's draft executive order to actually force immigrants to be self-sufficient (or sponsors to actually pick up the cost) for at least 3 years is one that makes sense, for these reasons.

And regardless of whether it is or isn't the point of the discussion, it is usually worthwhile to correct mistaken information presented as fact.

[JoeyShmoe]

I disagree. My point is that both legal and illegal immigrants can be a financial drain on the system. I think that Trump's draft executive order to actually force immigrants to be self-sufficient (or sponsors to actually pick up the cost) for at least 3 years is one that makes sense, for these reasons.

And regardless of whether it is or isn't the point of the discussion, it is usually worthwhile to correct mistaken information presented as fact.

I absolutely agree with everything here, as a matter of fact 15 generation American citizens can also be a drain on the system, there are all sorts of people that get helped from government programs whether they need it or not. You will agree though to @yuneeq's original statement Besides that the illegals are all a huge drain on public funds without paying into the system., IOW 100% of those that are here illegally AND don't pay into the system are being a drain on public funds. This is what @as2 commented on and I asked my original question.

[Mountain Man]

My question is if the restaurants that are closing for immigrants days are paying their employees for the time off. I don't see that discussed much. If they are that is admirable and if not the restaurants are essentially stealing from low paid workers.

[aygart]

My question is if the restaurants that are closing for immigrants days are paying their employees for the time off. I don't see that discussed much. If they are that is admirable and if not the restaurants are essentially stealing from low paid workers.

how so?

[Mountain Man]

how so?

You have a low income employee (immigrant or not) who is told not to come to work. However, they still have bills that need to be paid. It's one thing to fire them but to force an involuntary unpaid "protest" doesn't seem terribly fair. I wish the media clarified this.

[as2]

You have a low income employee (immigrant or not) who is told not to come to work. However, they still have bills that need to be paid. It's one thing to fire them but to force an involuntary unpaid "protest" doesn't seem terribly fair. I wish the media clarified this.

Who the hell is telling them not to come to work?! I sure as heck am not! You make the decision to participate in some rally/event not me! If you want to blame someone aside from yourself, blame the people who organized it!!

[Mountain Man]

Who the hell is telling them not to come to work?! I sure as heck am not! You make the decision to participate in some rally/event not me! If you want to blame someone aside from yourself, blame the people who organized it!!

I'm referring to the restaurants and business that are closed for protest. Like when Chef Andres or Mcdonalds shut down their restaurants. I hope that those workers are being paid for what they would've earned on those shifts. Nobody in the media seems to be talking about that.

If my company shut down for a day to protest something or another and I wasn't compensated for that time I'd feel like I was stolen from.

[as2]

I'm referring to the restaurants and business that are closed for protest. Like when Chef Andres or Mcdonalds shut down their restaurants. I hope that those workers are being paid for what they would've earned on those shifts. Nobody in the media seems to be talking about that.

If my company shut down for a day to protest something or another and I wasn't compensated for that time I'd feel like I was stolen from.

Ohhhh. Gosh I thought you completely lost your mind!

[aygart]

You have a low income employee (immigrant or not) who is told not to come to work. However, they still have bills that need to be paid. It's one thing to fire them but to force an involuntary unpaid "protest" doesn't seem terribly fair. I wish the media clarified this.

Oh you mean because the boss closed in order to protest. I thought you meant they closed because there were no workers.

[Redbull3]

I've always wondered what the net impact is of illegal immigration from a pure economic standpoint. And while I have read a lot on the issue, I don't have a conclusive opinion. I will point out a few things though. These are all from memory, so I could be wrong on these facts:

1. There are different types of illegals. Many of us are envisioning border jumpers from Mexico who don't speak English, and there is certainly an epidemic of this happening due to the insanity of drug-cartel run Mexico, but more common than that are visa overstays. These are folks from all over the world who arrive by plane, with permission work in our country for a certain amount of time, but just don't leave when they are supposed to. They pay taxes into our system.

2. The biggest drain of illegals is emergency healthcare, education system, prison system - way more than individual programs like welfare, food stamps, etc.

It's a very intricate, detailed issue. Here is an interesting case study on Arizona which got rid of a lot of illegals (by requiring verification to employ them) and lots of them left/were deported, and many different aspects of the economy suffered as a result.

TLDR: First, there are the businesses like landscaping that run on these guys. Second, these guys consume - food, clothing, shelter etc. And removing them impacts those industries. There are public savings costs that are harder to quantify by removing them from ER's, the kids from schools and prisons.

ETA i removed the arizona link, was the wrong article.

[Mountain Man]

Oh you mean because the boss closed in order to protest. I thought you meant they closed because there were no workers.

Ohhhh. Gosh I thought you completely lost your mind!

Sorry for not wording it clearer. When a frum company closes on yom tov they either pay the employees for that time or make the employees aware of that far enough in advance that they can plan for the unpaid leave. For a company to just shut their doors to "protest" for the employees sake without confirming it won't cause hardship for those same employees seems very foolish and unfair. Like I said I wish the media would confirm that Mcdonalds is compensating these employees or allowing them to make up time on other shifts.

[aygart]

Sorry for not wording it clearer. When a frum company closes on yom tov they either pay the employees for that time or make the employees aware of that far enough in advance that they can plan for the unpaid leave. For a company to just shut their doors to "protest" for the employees sake without confirming it won't cause hardship for those same employees seems very foolish and unfair. Like I said I wish the media would confirm that Mcdonalds is compensating these employees or allowing them to make up time on other shifts.

McDonald's stores are mostly franchises. It would be a decision of the store owner. the most likely scenario with the closed stores is that too many employees were absent for the store to run properly and the store was forced to close hurting the other employees and the small business owner.

[zh cohen]

you may not want to but the proper thing to do is fire her/him/it.

Only if he would fire anyone who didn't show up one day.