Author Topic: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)  (Read 7577 times)

Online aygart

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It's easier to play the victim when you get "kicked out."
My point exactly. They are trying to disregard the standards of the community but be the victim. Doesn't sound like they have the spine on their own.
Also, what are they supposed to do, show up one day at her parents to introduce one of her boyfriends?
Stop pretending to be frum?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Online ExGingi

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Probably false or exaggerated, but I don't doubt that it exists within all communities.
Anyone who says it's impossible should make friends with Ahmadinejad
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483746/We-dont-gays-Iran-Iranian-president-tells-Ivy-League-audience.html

I don't disagree that many of the issues exist within all communities, but the confluence of the details in the story just make it beyond (or beneath) believable.

And while my 1% statement might have been an exaggeration as to size of the grain of truth, I think it is less of a stretch than to claim that 90% of OTD is due to problems reconciling sexual activity with Judaism.

Offline koplonko

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Stop pretending to be frum?
They don't want their children (who probably would not go along with them) to suffer

Online aygart

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They don't want their children (who probably would not go along with them) to suffer
And that will be better if they are caught and get kicked out because________________

I can't imagine their kids aren't suffering already.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline koplonko

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And that will be better if they are caught and get kicked out because________________
Going with the logic of being "kicked out" = victim, at least they didn't willingly hurt their kids
I can't imagine their kids aren't suffering already.
In family life, yes. Not necessarily in school and social life

Online aygart

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Going with the logic of being "kicked out" = victim, at least they didn't willingly hurt their kids.
Exactly. So by doing things which will expose them and get them kicked out they can fool themselves into believing that they did not hurt their kids even though they did.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Amusch

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2017, 03:38:21 PM »
Let's get the snow day popcorn started...my take...
90% of OTD is because they cant reconcile their sexual activity with Judaism...1% is intellectual OTD and the rest is a mixture of reasons.

Number sounds a little high IME...

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2017, 03:52:47 PM »
Number sounds a little high IME...
I agree with that, though as I pointed above, it would not be the "reason" for going OTD, but rather the facilitator or the trigger.

I recall reading somewhere a couple of years ago, a post on a blog that had a leaflet published by some חבורה in Boro Park, where a story was told about a person that went OTD, and then came back through Lubavitch. When asked מעיקרא מאי קסבר, ולבסוף מאי קסבר, the answer was that the Yiddishkeit that he found, was one that he never left (or had). (If anyone is familiar with this, I'd appreciate a link).

Online zh cohen

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #68 on: March 14, 2017, 04:01:45 PM »
I agree with that, though as I pointed above, it would not be the "reason" for going OTD, but rather the facilitator or the trigger.

I recall reading somewhere a couple of years ago, a post on a blog that had a leaflet published by some חבורה in Boro Park, where a story was told about a person that went OTD, and then came back through Lubavitch. When asked מעיקרא מאי קסבר, ולבסוף מאי קסבר, the answer was that the Yiddishkeit that he found, was one that he never left (or had). (If anyone is familiar with this, I'd appreciate a link).

Al derech ze, the famous line "you're not a Kofer, you're an am ha'aretz"

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #69 on: March 14, 2017, 04:39:29 PM »
Al derech ze, the famous line "you're not a Kofer, you're an am ha'aretz"
Not exactly, and might sound a little condescending.

There was a group of highly intellectual bochurim who went OTD (to various degrees). כז אדר \ ג תמוז might have been part of the trigger or facilitator, but there were definitely other factors. At least one of them (son of a neighbor of mine) is somewhat attached, and has been seen around more often in recent years. IINM they all did drugs to a certain extent at some point.

That brings to mind another highly intellectual classmate of mine (from Morristown) who went OTD, I see him in Crown Heights rarely, and don't really know what his status is.

And then there's another one who used to stand right next to me at the Rebbe's farbrengens, had a phenomenal head and memory, and used to do חזרה of the farbrengens in great detail. He went OTD after he was married.

By no stretch of the imagination would I call any of the above an עם-הארץ, these guys were all top of the class, both in נגלה and חסידות! However, I really don't think it was an intellectual trigger that caused any of the above to go OTD. While none of us knows what's in people's minds, especially in the last case I mentioned, I believe he just succumbed to his תאוות.

Online zh cohen

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #70 on: March 14, 2017, 05:21:41 PM »
Not exactly, and might sound a little condescending.

There was a group of highly intellectual bochurim who went OTD (to various degrees). כז אדר \ ג תמוז might have been part of the trigger or facilitator, but there were definitely other factors. At least one of them (son of a neighbor of mine) is somewhat attached, and has been seen around more often in recent years. IINM they all did drugs to a certain extent at some point.

That brings to mind another highly intellectual classmate of mine (from Morristown) who went OTD, I see him in Crown Heights rarely, and don't really know what his status is.

And then there's another one who used to stand right next to me at the Rebbe's farbrengens, had a phenomenal head and memory, and used to do חזרה of the farbrengens in great detail. He went OTD after he was married.

By no stretch of the imagination would I call any of the above an עם-הארץ, these guys were all top of the class, both in נגלה and חסידות! However, I really don't think it was an intellectual trigger that caused any of the above to go OTD. While none of us knows what's in people's minds, especially in the last case I mentioned, I believe he just succumbed to his תאוות.

I don't think anything you said contradicts my point. It is extremely rare (at least in this generation) for someone to go OTD for intellectual reasons. Those that claim that they did, are almost always am ha'aretzim.

Offline avremie

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The difference between reason and facilitating is hairsplitting.

Offline yitzf

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #72 on: March 14, 2017, 05:52:29 PM »
Not exactly, and might sound a little condescending.

There was a group of highly intellectual bochurim who went OTD (to various degrees). כז אדר \ ג תמוז might have been part of the trigger or facilitator, but there were definitely other factors. At least one of them (son of a neighbor of mine) is somewhat attached, and has been seen around more often in recent years. IINM they all did drugs to a certain extent at some point.

That brings to mind another highly intellectual classmate of mine (from Morristown) who went OTD, I see him in Crown Heights rarely, and don't really know what his status is.

And then there's another one who used to stand right next to me at the Rebbe's farbrengens, had a phenomenal head and memory, and used to do חזרה of the farbrengens in great detail. He went OTD after he was married.

By no stretch of the imagination would I call any of the above an עם-הארץ, these guys were all top of the class, both in נגלה and חסידות! However, I really don't think it was an intellectual trigger that caused any of the above to go OTD. While none of us knows what's in people's minds, especially in the last case I mentioned, I believe he just succumbed to his תאוות.

Not a contradiction. Just becuase they are intillectual doen't mean they went OTD for such reasons. Rather כל הגדול מחברו יצרו גדול הימנו

Just look at all the high profile scandals.

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #73 on: March 14, 2017, 05:54:46 PM »
I don't think anything you said contradicts my point. It is extremely rare (at least in this generation) for someone to go OTD for intellectual reasons. Those that claim that they did, are almost always am ha'aretzim.
My problem was with "al derech ze". Taken in context of the response to what I posted (and inquired if anyone has the source), it could be taken in a condescending way.

Offline AsherO

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People with intellectual reasons don't go OTD, they become orthoprax. If they aren't לתיאבון nor להכעיס, then materiality doesn't interest them, and observance doesn't bother than all that much.
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