Author Topic: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)  (Read 7578 times)

Online henche

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My impression is that being OTD is not much fun; typically it means losing your entire social network, community, and to some extent family. 

I'd assume people leave if the pain they have in staying is more than that.

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My impression is that being OTD is not much fun; typically it means losing your entire social network, community, and to some extent family. 

I'd assume people leave if the pain they have in staying is more than that.
There are plenty that 'transition' and make a new social circle, new community, new life. And plenty are still part of their families etc.

I'd say the transition is harder than .. being OTD.
"Not all who wander are lost"

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People with intellectual reasons don't go OTD, they become orthoprax. If they aren't לתיאבון nor להכעיס, then materiality doesn't interest them, and observance doesn't bother than all that much.
My father in law tells the story of the epikores who was observed keeping all mitzvos. When asked about it, his response was ״וועמען וועל איך אפטאן, אויב איך וועל די אלע זאכן ניט טאן?״

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I'd assume people leave if the pain they have in staying is more than that.
Thats almost always the impetus for any change. In most cases one will not change unless the pain of not changing is greater than the change necessary to make the pain diminish.

Offline avremie

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This is why there is an organization to make the transition easier. :'(

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This is why there is an organization to make the transition easier. :'(
The transition from the non-frum world to the frum world is probably not easy either, there's always a major cultural gap (at the very least).

We read many stories about BT's (I dislike the term, but will use it as we all know what it refers to) who are assisted up to a certain point, and then once they start their own family, or deal with difficulties after they are already fully observant, they are left to fend for their own.

That being said, from what I've seen/heard, there is a major difference between the frum world and the secular world, which is the community.

I've spoken to non-frum people, and they have nothing that comes close to the sense of community that exists in the frum world. Yes, they might have their circle of friends, but that doesn't come close to what a community is about. Our communities come together to help total strangers, just because they are part of the community, or part of another jewish community. This is non-existent outside of the frum world (or definitely not in the size and scope it exists within the frum world). Somewhat related to this is the concept of Gemach, which is unique to the frum communities.

Offline cmey

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #81 on: March 14, 2017, 10:43:16 PM »
לא עבדו ישראל עבודה זרה אלא להתיר להם עריות
I think that if you think about it deeply, the belief system of society at large, i.e. moral relativism etc. is heavily influenced by a lifestyle that is incompatible with religious belief and observance and absolute morality , whether it is sexuality, hedonism, rampant consumerism, it is inconvenient to acknowledge a reality that imposes absolute morals and limits. If one looks at the philosophy being espoused at the highest levels of the most prestigious universities it seems to be influenced by the above rather than by deep soul searching and true introspection. The belief system them filters down to the masses and is accepted as gospel. This poor couple obviously lacked a true internalized belief and value system so they stood no chance when exposed to the morass of modern society. I think that is the lesson here- if your belief system is just a product of the people around you and is never internalized then it will evaporate as soon as the people around you change. We have got to internalize and educate our children to internalize who we are and what we believe in, not just expect our children to imitate those around them,otherwise it is not a true belief system at all; merely a transient product of a (temporary) set of circumstances....
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 10:57:58 PM by cmey »

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The transition from the non-frum world to the frum world is probably not easy either, there's always a major cultural gap (at the very least).

We read many stories about BT's (I dislike the term, but will use it as we all know what it refers to) who are assisted up to a certain point, and then once they start their own family, or deal with difficulties after they are already fully observant, they are left to fend for their own.

That being said, from what I've seen/heard, there is a major difference between the frum world and the secular world, which is the community.

I've spoken to non-frum people, and they have nothing that comes close to the sense of community that exists in the frum world. Yes, they might have their circle of friends, but that doesn't come close to what a community is about. Our communities come together to help total strangers, just because they are part of the community, or part of another jewish community. This is non-existent outside of the frum world (or definitely not in the size and scope it exists within the frum world). Somewhat related to this is the concept of Gemach, which is unique to the frum communities.
+1000000....
To see it you only need to go to Columbia Hospital or one of many others.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline cmey

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #83 on: March 14, 2017, 10:57:03 PM »
----

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #84 on: March 14, 2017, 11:02:11 PM »
This poor couple obviously lacked a true internalized belief and value system so they stood no chance when exposed to the morass of modern society. I think that is the lesson here- if your belief system is just a product of the people around you and is never internalized then it will evaporate as soon as the people around you change. We have got to internalize and educate our children to internalize who we are and what we believe in, not just expect our children to imitate those around them,otherwise it is not a true belief system at all; merely a transient product of a (temporary) set of circumstances....

Thank you for saying this better than I ever could have.

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My impression is that being OTD is not much fun; typically it means losing your entire social network, community, and to some extent family. 

I'd assume people leave if the pain they have in staying is more than that.
Bingo. INMHO that is the only reason

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #86 on: March 14, 2017, 11:38:21 PM »
לא עבדו ישראל עבודה זרה אלא להתיר להם עריות
I think that if you think about it deeply, the belief system of society at large, i.e. moral relativism etc. is heavily influenced by a lifestyle that is incompatible with religious belief and observance and absolute morality , whether it is sexuality, hedonism, rampant consumerism, it is inconvenient to acknowledge a reality that imposes absolute morals and limits. If one looks at the philosophy being espoused at the highest levels of the most prestigious universities it seems to be influenced by the above rather than by deep soul searching and true introspection. The belief system them filters down to the masses and is accepted as gospel. This poor couple obviously lacked a true internalized belief and value system so they stood no chance when exposed to the morass of modern society. I think that is the lesson here- if your belief system is just a product of the people around you and is never internalized then it will evaporate as soon as the people around you change. We have got to internalize and educate our children to internalize who we are and what we believe in, not just expect our children to imitate those around them,otherwise it is not a true belief system at all; merely a transient product of a (temporary) set of circumstances....
While your comment could use some breaking up into paragraphs for readability, it touches on a very true subject.

Whether this "poor couple" is real or not, I think there are plenty of people all around us (and possibly, to a certain extent, each and every one of us - or else we would all be בינונים ע"פ התניא) that don't properly "internalize who we are and what we believe in".

Your comment about educating our children "not just ... to imitate those around them" resonates with me very strongly. The Rebbe quotes in Hayom Yom the saying of the Tzemach Tzedek that one shouldn't ask for a ברכה regarding עבודה. I once heard this elucidated in a shiur by Rabbi Yossi Paltiel (don't remember which one, but I think it was a Tanya shiur, his treasure trove is here) where he said that a Chossid came asking for such a ברכה, to which the response was (expounded from the terse text): My grandfather (the Alter Rebbe) was מוסר נפש so that each Jew should keep Yiddishkeit in his own right, and not because his parents did, and now you are asking me for the opposite?

To me, that is part of what being a Lubavitcher (which I strive to be) is about. I don't want my kids to be frum Yidden because their parents were such, I want them to be frum Yidden by pure choice (and that choice should be מאהבה and not מיראה).

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+1000000....
To see it you only need to go to Columbia Hospital or one of many others.
We can also witness it in happier occasions, such as Siyum Hashas, Yeshiva Dinners, or other communal events. IINM even events such as weddings, have much greater personal participation per $ than outside of our communities.

Offline grodnoking

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That being said, from what I've seen/heard, there is a major difference between the frum world and the secular world, which is the community.

I've spoken to non-frum people, and they have nothing that comes close to the sense of community that exists in the frum world. Yes, they might have their circle of friends, but that doesn't come close to what a community is about. Our communities come together to help total strangers, just because they are part of the community, or part of another jewish community. This is non-existent outside of the frum world (or definitely not in the size and scope it exists within the frum world). Somewhat related to this is the concept of Gemach, which is unique to the frum communities.

+1000000....
To see it you only need to go to Columbia Hospital or one of many others.

+1,000,000,000,000.
Not just bieker cholim, everything you ever do, you can always count on getting help. From Hatzolah, tomchai Shabbos, gemachs, to getting a job. Chabad everywhere always ready to help. I've stayed in people's houses I only knew in passing. Getting stuff from across the globe (remember that crayon? ). Hitches.
I'm not who you think I am.

Offline cmey

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #89 on: March 15, 2017, 12:18:37 AM »
Thank you for saying this better than I ever could have.

I'm not advocating any one system. I think that in many cases the shtetl before the period of the haskalah worked beautifully, yet it is clear that somehow the belief system then was by and large not merely superficial; it was deeply ingrained. I'm not opining that everyone belongs at the trade shows in Las Vegas, but if the reality is that your child may end up there, make sure that they will be as comfortable with who they are as when they are walking on Lee Avenue....

I once heard a prominent gadol actually quote Shakespeare "this above all to thine ownself be true". If you are in contact with your true self- not the self that is the product of your surroundings- you will have the strength and conviction to deal with any circumstance you may find yourself in.