Author Topic: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)  (Read 6708 times)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #90 on: March 15, 2017, 12:38:16 AM »
.. a lifestyle that is incompatible with religious belief and observance and absolute morality , whether it is sexuality, hedonism, rampant consumerism....
Are you implying that those aren't common in the frum communities? במחילת כבוד אכסניה, isn't DDMS and DDF rooted to a certain extent in those phenomena?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #91 on: March 15, 2017, 12:41:46 AM »
I think that in many cases the shtetl before the period of the haskalah worked beautifully, yet it is clear that somehow the belief system then was by and large not merely superficial; it was deeply ingrained.
What is the basis for your assertion?

Offline joe1234

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This story is overly exaggerated! Obviously these kinds of things happen.. But not on a full scale long term double life standard... #FAKENEWS
Time flies when you're in a rush

Offline Ergel

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This story is overly exaggerated! Obviously these kinds of things happen.. But not on a full scale long term double life standard... #FAKENEWS
Incorrect. Again, I don't think this could is real. But these kinds of things are happening, RL
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline beeweegee

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Incorrect. Again, I don't think this could is real. But these kinds of things are happening, RL
+1

Offline cmey

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #95 on: March 15, 2017, 01:46:26 AM »
What is the basis for your assertion?
Anecdotal. The point is that even if the upbringing of that time period worked that is not going to suffice for our children today. If you want to disagree about the success of the pre haskalah shtetl system I do not have the historical expertise to debate the point.

Offline cmey

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #96 on: March 15, 2017, 01:57:49 AM »
Are you implying that those aren't common in the frum communities? במחילת כבוד אכסניה, isn't DDMS and DDF rooted to a certain extent in those phenomena?

You are bringing up a good point but I think that there are varying levels of spirituality. Obviously total and sincere asceticism- if one is truly on the level- can bring one to great spiritual heights. However we are only human and to the degree that our pursuit of pleasure, consumerism etc. is not a complete contradiction to our pursuit of spirituality we can accept who we are while striving to become better. Which one of us on DDMS or DDF would not want to be on the level where we would have no greater pleasure than learning a Gemara or where we would thoroughly enjoy davening with kavana from beginning to end with no need for non spiritual fulfillment in our lives. We have to make peace with whom we are while aspiring to grow to whom we want to be.

I am referring to being consumed by the above to the point where there is such a contradiction that one is confronted with the choice of either accepting limits and constraints to his lifestyle or spurning any relationship with spirituality/morality in his life. When our society at large is confronted with this choice, with few exceptions,  the path taken is the latter. They'll sometimes give lip service to morality and being a good person etc. but that stops where there is a clash with their lifestyle... unfortunately we all know people in our community who have made the same problematic choice despite professing to put morality above all and that is symptomatic matic of the problem of not internalizing our beliefs that was referenced in the previous post....
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 02:34:57 AM by cmey »

Offline ckmk47

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #97 on: March 15, 2017, 02:37:47 AM »

I think that in many cases the shtetl before the period of the haskalah worked beautifully, yet it is clear that somehow the belief system then was by and large not merely superficial; it was deeply ingrained.
I heard recently from someone reliable about the pre-war shtetel. (Post-haskala obviously) He said that in Poland, people were so poor that you only had to promise people food and they would follow you.  To zionist meetings, to public school, to haskala talks.  And from there, away from Torah.

Online aygart

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We can also witness it in happier occasions, such as Siyum Hashas, Yeshiva Dinners, or other communal events. IINM even events such as weddings, have much greater personal participation per $ than outside of our communities.
+1,000,000,000,000.
Not just bieker cholim, everything you ever do, you can always count on getting help. From Hatzolah, tomchai Shabbos, gemachs, to getting a job. Chabad everywhere always ready to help. I've stayed in people's houses I only knew in passing. Getting stuff from across the globe (remember that crayon? ). Hitches.

Agree. That was just an example where you can find it 24/7 and I am not just referring to the organizations.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Online aygart

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I'm not advocating any one system. I think that in many cases the shtetl before the period of the haskalah worked beautifully, yet it is clear that somehow the belief system then was by and large not merely superficial; it was deeply ingrained. I'm not opining that everyone belongs at the trade shows in Las Vegas, but if the reality is that your child may end up there, make sure that they will be as comfortable with who they are as when they are walking on Lee Avenue....

I once heard a prominent gadol actually quote Shakespeare "this above all to thine ownself be true". If you are in contact with your true self- not the self that is the product of your surroundings- you will have the strength and conviction to deal with any circumstance you may find yourself in.
All it took from that system was exposure to the outside world and frumkeit was decimated in way never seen before and since. Between haskala, zionism, communism, America, etc. now frum yidden a very small percentage of yiddishkeit mostly within 100-150 years. Arguably it took the Holocaust to save frum yiddishkeit by separating the susceptible ones out.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline yzj

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #100 on: March 15, 2017, 09:08:43 AM »
לא עבדו ישראל עבודה זרה אלא להתיר להם עריות
I think that if you think about it deeply, the belief system of society at large, i.e. moral relativism etc. is heavily influenced by a lifestyle that is incompatible with religious belief and observance and absolute morality , whether it is sexuality, hedonism, rampant consumerism, it is inconvenient to acknowledge a reality that imposes absolute morals and limits. If one looks at the philosophy being espoused at the highest levels of the most prestigious universities it seems to be influenced by the above rather than by deep soul searching and true introspection. The belief system them filters down to the masses and is accepted as gospel. This poor couple obviously lacked a true internalized belief and value system so they stood no chance when exposed to the morass of modern society. I think that is the lesson here- if your belief system is just a product of the people around you and is never internalized then it will evaporate as soon as the people around you change. We have got to internalize and educate our children to internalize who we are and what we believe in, not just expect our children to imitate those around them,otherwise it is not a true belief system at all; merely a transient product of a (temporary) set of circumstances....

That's why it's so in in our society to have pets but not to have kids. A pet makes you feel altruistic without really imposing on your lifestyle. Kids clash with the prevailing lifestyle....

Offline Ergel

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Shocking how a thread which should be about introspection and improving our communities turned into a thread bashing secular culture
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

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Shocking how a thread which should be about introspection and improving our communities turned into a thread bashing secular culture
I think that most here do not view these as the same situation as OTD and at-risk teens but rather as people who could not control their taavos which has happened from time immemorial.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Online TimT

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Shocking how a thread which should be about introspection and improving our communities turned into a thread bashing secular culture
This topic isn't about "improving our communities". Unless you mean being more accepting of the practice.

Offline Dan

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I think that most here do not view these as the same situation as OTD and at-risk teens but rather as people who could not control their taavos which has happened from time immemorial.

Ain adam choteh ela im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus...

I'd venture to say that most OTD cases happen because of unfulfilled Taivos.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.