Author Topic: Is "ribis" Counted on Point/Miles Loans (Read 2803 times)

EMCC · « **on:** July 04, 2017, 01:35:10 AM »

If I borrow 80k UR from someone for 60 days, and pay back 90k, is that ribis?

Der Deutsche Jude · « **Reply #1 on:** July 04, 2017, 01:42:01 AM »

Your question belongs here:

http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=11285.0

Z56 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 04, 2017, 01:42:38 AM »

Quote from: EMCC on July 04, 2017, 01:35:10 AM

If I borrow 80k UR from someone for 60 days, and pay back 90k, is that ribis?

why isn't this thread in JS ?

YES. your borrowing 80k and he is returning 90K...

johnshek · « **Reply #3 on:** July 04, 2017, 01:56:28 AM »

Quote from: EMCC on July 04, 2017, 01:35:10 AM

If I borrow 80k UR from someone for 60 days, and pay back 90k, is that ribis?

Very possibly. You should probably ask a competent posek these questions, although someone here may have already. It's quite likely that lending 80k and getting back 80k could also pose a problem of sa'ah bsa'ah as the market value of points is in constant flux.

moe8555 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 04, 2017, 02:24:12 AM »

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to return the favor with a few thousand extra points rather than 10,000, as a symbolic token of appreciation for the "lender's" time/efforts/any possible change in value?

mmgfarb · « **Reply #5 on:** July 04, 2017, 02:31:24 AM »

Quote from: moe8555 on July 04, 2017, 02:24:12 AM

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to return the favor with a few thousand extra points rather than 10,000, as a symbolic token of appreciation for the "lender's" time/efforts/any possible change in value?

If that's not actually ribis it's for sure avak ribis.

good sam · « **Reply #6 on:** July 04, 2017, 07:10:48 AM »

Quote from: EMCC on July 04, 2017, 01:35:10 AM

If I borrow 80k UR from someone for 60 days, and pay back 90k, is that ribis?

If your question is whether ribis applies to goods rather than just currency, the answer is absolutely yes.

The real question is whether it's ribis to borrow 80k and pay back 80k.

bermo · « **Reply #7 on:** July 04, 2017, 09:55:08 AM »

Quote from: johnshek on July 04, 2017, 01:56:28 AM

It's quite likely that lending 80k and getting back 80k could also pose a problem of sa'ah bsa'ah as the market value of points is in constant flux.

+1
Most people that I asked suggested we set a $ amount per point and then reevaluate when he returns the points.

yuguy · « **Reply #8 on:** July 04, 2017, 08:19:41 PM »

Does it really matter or even apply when you don't necessarily own the points? They're not yours to trade/sell. (Not that i wouldnt lend or sell).

If anything, our market value is undervalued from what the banks and airlines value their own miles at... No one sells at that rate. But it's their points to set rates for, nonetheless.

Does the principle of interest apply when there is an artificial/gray market value given??

Dan · « **Reply #9 on:** July 04, 2017, 08:31:47 PM »

Given that it's against the terms, I'd argue that that you are correct.

username · « **Reply #10 on:** July 04, 2017, 08:45:00 PM »

I seem to rember this q on the forums a while back. @TimT

etech0 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 04, 2017, 08:55:31 PM »

Quote from: username on July 04, 2017, 08:45:00 PM

I seem to rember this q on the forums a while back. @TimT

Quote from: Lou Bob on December 25, 2015, 09:25:03 AM

DDF and Google are not your
A: Doctor
B: Rabbi

good sam · « **Reply #12 on:** July 04, 2017, 09:02:43 PM »

Quote from: yuguy on July 04, 2017, 08:19:41 PM

Does it really matter or even apply when you don't necessarily own the points? They're not yours to trade/sell. (Not that i wouldnt lend or sell).

If anything, our market value is undervalued from what the banks and airlines value their own miles at... No one sells at that rate. But it's their points to set rates for, nonetheless.

Does the principle of interest apply when there is an artificial/gray market value given??

I would think the value uncertainty makes it more of ribis problem, not less.

Dan · « **Reply #13 on:** July 04, 2017, 09:08:45 PM »

There's nothing uncertain.

Selling points violates the programs terms, thus there is no value other than the quantity of points.

/.02, AYLOR

bermo · « **Reply #14 on:** July 04, 2017, 10:53:26 PM »

when there is a devaluation the value of points go down even if it was not possible to sell them

TimT · « **Reply #15 on:** July 04, 2017, 10:54:56 PM »

Quote from: username on July 04, 2017, 08:45:00 PM

I seem to rember this q on the forums a while back. @TimT

http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=20413.0
(Sorry, I was out partying till now)

Ergel · « **Reply #16 on:** July 04, 2017, 11:16:32 PM »

Quote from: Dan on July 04, 2017, 09:08:45 PM

There's nothing uncertain.

Selling points violates the programs terms, thus there is no value other than the quantity of points.

/.02, AYLOR

Just because you are not allowed to sell something doesn't mean it has no value (eg cocaine).
Definitely an issur ribbis to pay back more points.
Also an issur saah bsaah to return the same number of points, but as pointed out, that's easily fixable

mmgfarb · « **Reply #17 on:** July 04, 2017, 11:22:45 PM »

Quote from: TimT on July 04, 2017, 10:54:56 PM

Were we at the same party?
(Sorry, I was out partying till now)

good sam · « **Reply #18 on:** July 05, 2017, 12:21:25 AM »

Quote from: Dan on July 04, 2017, 09:08:45 PM

There's nothing uncertain.

Selling points violates the programs terms, thus there is no value other than the quantity of points.

/.02, AYLOR

Why would anyone buy them if they have no value?

Dan · « **Reply #19 on:** July 05, 2017, 12:23:31 AM »

Quote from: good sam on July 05, 2017, 12:21:25 AM

Why would anyone buy them if they have no value?

Technically you don't own your points/miles. If you sell them then they are subject to being confiscated and are considered stolen.
There's a lot at play here. AYLOR, but make sure you can properly explain it all.