Author Topic: Opiod addictions  (Read 22094 times)

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 7232
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2017, 10:55:34 PM »
How?
If we knew the answer to that we wouldn't need this discussion.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5776
  • Total likes: 1151
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2017, 12:28:23 AM »
If we knew the answer to that we wouldn't need this discussion.
We're not having a discussion. You made a statement and dont back it up.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 7232
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2017, 12:30:42 AM »
We're not having a discussion. You made a statement and dont back it up.
You mean you want examples of people that have been clean for years and then go back to square one?
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5776
  • Total likes: 1151
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2017, 12:57:28 AM »
You mean you want examples of people that have been clean for years and then go back to square one?
No i want the reasons. If theyre supposedly in 12 step programs and  go back there is always a reason.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline Boruch999

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 2164
  • Total likes: 186
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2017, 02:27:05 AM »
No i want the reasons. If theyre supposedly in 12 step programs and  go back there is always a reason.

Without rehashing a discussion about this we've had in another thread, here's a reason.  The 12 step program demands total abstinence forever.  Many don't manage to keep that.  Call them weak, inconsistent or whatever. I call them human.  Is it their fault? Maybe.  Is that a reason not to look for alternatives? 

Online yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8880
  • Total likes: 4047
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2017, 09:32:26 AM »
Another good excuse to avoid a program that works. I dont even want to guess how you come to that, but ok. My position on anyone that questions 12 steps and says "it didnt work for me" or "it doesnt work" is very clear. First, you need to show me what exactly didnt work for you or doesnt work. Second, you need to show me that you truly tried it. 90 days of trying it for real. Not half-assed showing up at meeting an hour in and playing on your phone and not getting involved.

I've been around hundereds of addicts who have been to 12 step meetings, rehab, private therapy you name it. Those that stick to whatever it is that works for them, dont relapse. Those that dilly dally and do whatever is convenient for them usually dont last long.

12 step programs are a good set of guidlelines to live a good clean life. Its not the only way. But for those who follow the 12 steps they do recover and the risk of relapse is greatly diminished.

I’m not saying 12 steps does not work. Just saying you’re making a bad arguement for it.
If I advise fat people to run a marathon to lose weight, I can point to the results of people who actually complete the marathon and show that my advice is the best advice to help people lose weight. Or we can look at the 99% that don’t listen to my advice and are still fat.

The goal should be to help everyone. So try to convince people about the benefits of the 12 steps program without ignoring those without the will to continue the 12 steps.
Visibly Jewish

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5776
  • Total likes: 1151
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2017, 09:34:33 AM »
Without rehashing a discussion about this we've had in another thread, here's a reason.  The 12 step program demands total abstinence forever.  Many don't manage to keep that.  Call them weak, inconsistent or whatever. I call them human.  Is it their fault? Maybe.  Is that a reason not to look for alternatives?
So who failed? The program or the person? There's a fundamental difference between abstinence and Recovery. People can abstain for many years without recovering from their addiction. The addiction lies dormant doing push ups and that one weak moment that person goes out and is right back to where they started. That is a failure in the person not in the program.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5776
  • Total likes: 1151
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2017, 09:39:07 AM »
I’m not saying 12 steps does not work. Just saying you’re making a bad arguement for it.
If I advise fat people to run a marathon to lose weight, I can point to the results of people who actually complete the marathon and show that my advice is the best advice to help people lose weight. Or we can look at the 99% that don’t listen to my advice and are still fat.

The goal should be to help everyone. So try to convince people about the benefits of the 12 steps program without ignoring those without the will to continue the 12 steps.
Can you please name one alternative that provides continuity. A solution where the addict does not run the risk of relapsing.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18434
  • Total likes: 14610
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2017, 09:43:40 AM »
Can you please name one alternative that provides continuity. A solution where the addict does not run the risk of relapsing.
Is this a solution without risk of relapsing?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Boruch999

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 2164
  • Total likes: 186
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2017, 09:50:33 AM »
So who failed? The program or the person? There's a fundamental difference between abstinence and Recovery. People can abstain for many years without recovering from their addiction. The addiction lies dormant doing push ups and that one weak moment that person goes out and is right back to where they started. That is a failure in the person not in the program.

A program designed to help people with weaknesses that does not succeed in certain instances has failed in those instances.  Has the person also failed? I don't see what the point is of laying the blame on the person.  Clearly that person and that addict were not a good shidduch.  Let's say I agree for arguments sake that 100% of the time that people don't succeed at the 12 step are at fault for that failure.  And let's further agree that 50% of people fail.  Should we not look for alternatives for them?

Addressing your explanation of the difference between abstinence and recovery, first of all your capitalization of Recovery underlines the fact that 12 steps Recovery is their own invention, not synonymous with recovery.  It seems that you and 12 step agree that recovery may be achieved by other means.

Secondly,  perhaps, at least in some cases, Recovery is not achieved because 12 step demands complete abstinence (an idea with no basis in Torah hashkafa that I am aware of - see chatas nozir.)

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5776
  • Total likes: 1151
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2017, 09:53:09 AM »
Is this a solution without risk of relapsing?
Its the best one out there. Continued attendance at meetings, having a sponsor, accountability, community all help an addict. One offs, like 30 day rehab stints with no continuity of care or private therapy for fixed periods of time have a greater chance of relapse IME.

At the end of the day its about an addict, in recovery, taking responsibility for his/her actions after becoming sober and realizing that they had a problem. Relapse, again IME only, is a personal choice made by someone who is not ready to give up their addiction and does not have the recovery necessary to do so.

To say it a bit differently, once an addict knows that they are addicted, and knows of treatment alternatives, "oh, I relapsed" is just making excuses for not sticking to treatment. Addicts love to blame everyone but themselves. 12 step programs teach the addict to take personal responsibility for their actions.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5776
  • Total likes: 1151
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2017, 09:57:31 AM »
A program designed to help people with weaknesses that does not succeed in certain instances has failed in those instances.  Has the person also failed? I don't see what the point is of laying the blame on the person.  Clearly that person and that addict were not a good shidduch.  Let's say I agree for arguments sake that 100% of the time that people don't succeed at the 12 step are at fault for that failure.  And let's further agree that 50% of people fail.  Should we not look for alternatives for them?

Addressing your explanation of the difference between abstinence and recovery, first of all your capitalization of Recovery underlines the fact that 12 steps Recovery is their own invention, not synonymous with recovery.  It seems that you and 12 step agree that recovery may be achieved by other means.

Secondly,  perhaps, at least in some cases, Recovery is not achieved because 12 step demands complete abstinence (an idea with no basis in Torah hashkafa that I am aware of - see chatas nozir.)
You assume too much.
1. I never said dont look for alternatives. If looking for alternatives is just another excuse to not get treatment then...
2. The capitalization of recovery was my phone's own doing.
3. Pulling nazir out as a reason not to be abstinent is ridiculous. The nazir is abstinent by choice, rhe addict must be abstinent as pikuach nefesh. How can you even compare. Im just stunned...sorry.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18434
  • Total likes: 14610
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2017, 10:03:29 AM »
You assume too much.
1. I never said dont look for alternatives. If looking for alternatives is just another excuse to not get treatment then...
2. The capitalization of recovery was my phone's own doing.
3. Pulling nazir out as a reason not to be abstinent is ridiculous. The nazir is abstinent by choice, rhe addict must be abstinent as pikuach nefesh. How can you even compare. Im just stunned...sorry.
+1 to each.

Just like many jump from diet to diet when the real issue is their lack of self control similarly people do that about addiction.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5776
  • Total likes: 1151
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2017, 10:10:54 AM »
+1 to each.

Just like many jump from diet to diet when the real issue is their lack of self control similarly people do that about addiction.
Exactly

Self control is an integral part of recovery. Someone is only a shoigeg until they realize what they are doing. Afterwards they become a maizid.

It is not self control in solitude, alone withput help. Its self control with help of the group. With a plethora of tools, such as meetings, sponsors, telephone list and 24 hour hotlines.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline Boruch999

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 2164
  • Total likes: 186
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2017, 10:11:48 AM »
You assume too much.
1. I never said dont look for alternatives. If looking for alternatives is just another excuse to not get treatment then...
2. The capitalization of recovery was my phone's own doing.
3. Pulling nazir out as a reason not to be abstinent is ridiculous. The nazir is abstinent by choice, rhe addict must be abstinent as pikuach nefesh. How can you even compare. Im just stunned...sorry.
1.  You here and previously have equated suggestions that there are alternatives to providing an excuse to not get treatment.  That is your assumption, not mine, and it is false. My only intention was to point out that there are alternatives for someone who has tried 12 step and not succeeded.
2.  I believe that 12 literature capitalizes Recovery, which, if true, makes my point valid regardless.
3.  All I meant to say is that complete abstinence of a davar mutar is not a Torah ideal.  If it is necessary due to an allergy, for example, then certainly it is correct.  The same would be for someone who's addiction is cured by total abstinence. I was just pointing out that the Torah does not expect of us total abstinence.

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5776
  • Total likes: 1151
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2017, 10:29:37 AM »
1.  You here and previously have equated suggestions that there are alternatives to providing an excuse to not get treatment.  That is your assumption, not mine, and it is false. My only intention was to point out that there are alternatives for someone who has tried 12 step and not succeeded.
2.  I believe that 12 literature capitalizes Recovery, which, if true, makes my point valid regardless.
3.  All I meant to say is that complete abstinence of a davar mutar is not a Torah ideal.  If it is necessary due to an allergy, for example, then certainly it is correct.  The same would be for someone who's addiction is cured by total abstinence. I was just pointing out that the Torah does not expect of us total abstinence.
You keep yelling "alternatives". Please show me which alternatives have a better relapse prevention rate than someone who goes to a 12 step program for the rest of their lives.

Your unfamiliarity with the 12 steps is telling. Nowhere in the 12 steps does it capitalize recovery. In reality the preamble to the 12 steps says: Here are the steps which are a program of recovery.

And finally, doing things that are k'neged torah for pikuach nefesh is as much torah as your argument. Furthermore, where there is no harm and it's not a davar assur, like for example chilul shabbos, and it only requires someone to take upon themselves abstinence which may save their lives, i dont think therr is a rav in the world that will say you're not allowed to do it.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5776
  • Total likes: 1151
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #56 on: October 29, 2017, 10:36:18 AM »
The 12 steps are rooted in mussar and torah. They arr meant to help an addict become a human again. When in the throes of their addiction, addicts can act sub-human. The steps give them a slow and steady roadmap to being better human beings.

The most important step is Step 1, admitting that the addict is powerless over their addiction and that life is unmanageable. Most people that fail do so at that exact point. Admitting that the jig is up and that life cannot continue the way it has been until now is the hardest thing. When a person relapses they think they have their addiction under control, which means that they have power over their addiction. So the steps require constant work and refreshing in the addicts mind to remind them that they are indeed powerless over the addiction. Where do you get that sort of continuous reinforcement in your alternatives to 12 steps?
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline Boruch999

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 2164
  • Total likes: 186
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #57 on: October 29, 2017, 10:49:46 AM »
You keep yelling "alternatives". Please show me which alternatives have a better relapse prevention rate than someone who goes to a 12 step program for the rest of their lives.

Your unfamiliarity with the 12 steps is telling. Nowhere in the 12 steps does it capitalize recovery. In reality the preamble to the 12 steps says: Here are the steps which are a program of recovery.

And finally, doing things that are k'neged torah for pikuach nefesh is as much torah as your argument. Furthermore, where there is no harm and it's not a davar assur, like for example chilul shabbos, and it only requires someone to take upon themselves abstinence which may save their lives, i dont think therr is a rav in the world that will say you're not allowed to do it.

We clearly do not communicate well on this topic so I'll leave off with one last post on this matter.

Advocates of the 12 Step Program often claim that their program is the gold standard of addiction treatment.  I have no first hand experience with addiction or it's treatment but I do know people who have tried the 12 step program with varying degrees of success.  For someone who has not succeeded in a 12 step program, knowledge of alternatives can be life saving.  I have no direct knowledge of any of the alternatives but the link below offers substantial criticism of the 12 step program along with references to alternatives. One is called naltrexone.  Also linked is a rebuttal of the criticism.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/tommy-rosen/spirituality-versus-scien_b_6909290.html

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5776
  • Total likes: 1151
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #58 on: October 29, 2017, 11:17:36 AM »
SMH

There are treatments for alcoholism that are not FDA approved. I personally knew someone who had a long term drug implanted in him to help him stop. He stopped for the exact length of the drug implants life, which was 5 years. Then he was right back to binge drinking. I know because he landed on my front steps a week after the 5 years ran out. Out cold and near death. His wife took him right back to get his next 5 year implant. So there is an alternative, as you mentioned. Does it work as effectively as 12 steps, maybe. But its not available in the US.

I got through the first few paragraphs of the article. First, its biased. The Atlantic is a liberal left wing anti religion bastion. So if something mentions G-d it must be flawed. Second, AA does not require anyone to believe in a God or drink Jesus juice. Third, white-knuckling, or being a "dry drunk" is exactly what im talking about.

People who are not working the program and not availing themselves of the tools of the program will tell you they feel like theyre drunk without drinking. Instead of relying on the drink as a crutch if he picked up a phone and called a "friend of Bill" who would meet him and talk him out of "needing" a drink maybe he wouldnt "need" that drink.

Whether we communicate well or not is immaterial. I have first hand experience. You mentioned one alternative which is a drug related alternative. There are many other types of addiction that cannot be treated with drugs. So until you can name successful long term alternatives, i stand by your first statement, successful, abstinent, recovery through a 12 step program is the gold standard of recovery.

Rehab will save someones life for today. חיי שעה is worthwhile but not the goal. One off drug treatments as you mentioned will also work for today, so does Narcan. But as a longer term solution i do not see anything better than 12 steps.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 2571
  • Total likes: 544
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #59 on: October 29, 2017, 11:20:38 AM »
There are books that discuss and help you drink less, for some, thsts a better help than going to quit. But certainly, many or most addicts need to give up for life or relapse