Author Topic: Where we would be without hilchos yichud and halachic boundaries  (Read 671 times)

Offline cmey

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Where we would be without hilchos yichud and halachic boundaries
« on: November 14, 2017, 09:26:23 AM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/14/politics/sexual-harassment-congress/index.html


“One female congresswoman told CNN that she has experienced sexual harassment from her male colleagues on multiple occasions over the years, but she declined to speak on the record or detail those interactions.
"Half are harassers," she said of her male counterparts in Congress, before quickly adding that that was an over-estimate”


“In conversations with CNN, multiple women pointed to the elevators on Capitol Hill as a place where staff and members prey on women and say they have been advised to avoid riding alone with men if possible. One woman said years after leaving her job in Congress, she still feels anxious about being alone in elevators with men.”

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/13/us/politics/sexual-harassment-congress-capitol-hill.html?referer=https://news.google.com/news/m/more?ncl=dgM6KZoHBEcCaKMQphHBg-pTfNHRM&topic=h&safe=active

“House and Senate Are ‘Among the Worst’ for Harassment, Representative Says”




What is really astounding is that these are the leaders of our country. When will people realize that without boundaries you are going to have problems. People deride these halachos and call them archaic when it’s clear that chazal understood human nature- that men were not created with a nature to just “control themselves”. That there need to be gedarim in place, not so that everything is then perfect, but at least to give men a fighting chance to do the right thing.

The anecdote in the CNN article about the senator shaking hands suggestively would give me pause even if I subscribed to the hetter to shake hands with the opposite gender.

I’m sure we will now see lots of harassment training and education. Apparently men just need to be educated and that will solve the problem. Until the next wave of stories come out.


Offline sky121

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Re: Where we would be without hilchos yichud and halachic boundaries
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2017, 09:37:02 AM »
While I wholeheartedly agree that having hilchos yichud helps avoid many negative situations there are plenty of men (though it may not seem like it these days)  who don't follow hilchos yichud or halacha and still act with the proper respect and appropriately towards the opposite sex.





"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline sky121

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Re: Where we would be without hilchos yichud and halachic boundaries
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2017, 09:39:40 AM »
That there need to be gedarim in place, not so that everything is then perfect, but at least to give men a fighting chance to do the right thing.



Something about the way you worded this isn't sitting well with me.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Online sillypainter

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Re: Where we would be without hilchos yichud and halachic boundaries
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2017, 09:41:47 AM »
While I wholeheartedly agree that having hilchos yichud helps avoid many negative situations there are plenty of men (though it may not seem like it these days)  who don't follow hilchos yichud or halacha and still act with the proper respect and appropriately towards the opposite sex.

Chazal say אין אפוטרופוס לעריות . You can't be smarter than חז"ל, and you know it well being that you are a man. If you want to tell me otherwise, I have a bridge to sell.

Offline sky121

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Re: Where we would be without hilchos yichud and halachic boundaries
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2017, 09:48:00 AM »
Chazal say אין אפוטרופוס לעריות . You can't be smarter than חז"ל, and you know it well being that you are a man. If you want to tell me otherwise, I have a bridge to sell.

Not trying to be smarter than chazal.       

Do you honestly think every man out there who didn't grow up with hilchos yichud has a story of treating the opposite sex inappropriately?


When we state thinks like that... we are implying that the actions of these men are somehow "justified" since they didn't have the laws in place so they didn't "have a fighting chance"  - My only argument is that even without these laws people have the ability to control their actions.

"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline cmey

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Re: Where we would be without hilchos yichud and halachic boundaries
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2017, 10:20:39 AM »

Something about the way you worded this isn't sitting well with me.

I didn’t mean to say a fighting chance to resist harassing women. Sorry if I wasn’t clear.
What I meant to say was that despite hilchos yichud life is meant to be a test, and one of life’s greatest tests (and potential for growth) is in this area (זהר- פרשת נח-כל מאן דנטיר האי ברית דעלמא אתקיים עליה, אקרי צדיק, מנא לן מיוסף, בגין דנטר ליה לברית עלמא זכה דאקרי צדיק). So there will be those who point to men who succumbed despite these gedarim, but that is not a reflection of the gedarim, rather the fact that we are meant to use our bechira to grow, and that is only possible if it is still a real challenge that we have to “fight” (struggle- if that sounds better to you) to overcome and thereby fulfill the purpose for which we were created.

On the other hand, without these gedarim there is little hope- that is the way we were created. Sure it is potentially possible; much of hilchos yichud did not exist before the time of Dovid Hamelech and there were many tzaddikim. Even today there will be a significant number of men who don’t engage in this sort of behavior even without hilchos yichud, but I would venture to say that today the vast majority of them probably have more to do with their own nature and temperament, and the environment they find themselves in, rather than a conscious personal struggle to overcome their natural inclinations.....
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 10:49:23 AM by cmey »

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Where we would be without hilchos yichud and halachic boundaries
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2017, 10:50:27 AM »

On the other hand, without these gedarim there is little hope- that is the way we were created. Sure it is potentially possible; much of hilchos yichud did not exist before the time of Dovid Hamelech and there were many tzaddikim. Even today there will be a significant number of men who don’t engage in this sort of behavior even without hilchos yichud, but I would venture to say that today the vast majority of them probably have more to do with their own nature and temperament, and the environment they find themselves in, rather than a conscious personal struggle to overcome their natural inclinations.....

You lost me here.  You're saying "sure, it's possible [that it's possible for men not to cross improper boundaries]."  And then say it's because of their nature and temperament.  And then end off with an implication that natural inclinations are to prey on women? 

Please clarify.

Offline ADG

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Re: Where we would be without hilchos yichud and halachic boundaries
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2017, 10:58:58 AM »
I am not going to stick around for the pilpul but I think the title says it all. Thank you Hashem for giving us the Torah and boundaries that go along with it. Whoever cannot see how great Hashem is for giving us such an important blessing will find him/herself in a problem.

Offline cmey

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Re: Where we would be without hilchos yichud and halachic boundaries
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2017, 11:02:18 AM »
You lost me here.  You're saying "sure, it's possible [that it's possible for men not to cross improper boundaries]."  And then say it's because of their nature and temperament.  And then end off with an implication that natural inclinations are to prey on women? 

Please clarify.

A previous post suggested that there many men who do just fine without the halachos- obviously not all men harass women. I was pointing out that the many great people that lived before hilchos yichud were enacted are proof that it is humanly possible. Many of them overcame their basic nature after working on themselves. Today the average person is not putting in the effort to struggle to overcome his base nature. Therefore the fact that there are many men who don’t engage in this behavior likely has more to do with their nature/ environment. A less aggressive/ assertive type will act differently that an “alpha male”. To expect a man who is naturally more of the latter type to work on himself overcome his nature without hilchos yichud is unrealistic. Are there some who do? Probably. But probably a very small minority.

Offline aygart

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Re: Where we would be without hilchos yichud and halachic boundaries
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2017, 11:10:41 AM »
Not trying to be smarter than chazal.       

Do you honestly think every man out there who didn't grow up with hilchos yichud has a story of treating the opposite sex inappropriately?


When we state thinks like that... we are implying that the actions of these men are somehow "justified" since they didn't have the laws in place so they didn't "have a fighting chance"  - My only argument is that even without these laws people have the ability to control their actions.


This is ridiculous. If there is a geder that helps prevent an issue then you are saying that anyone who doesn't have that geder is no longer responsible for their actions? People can make their own gedarim as well. Pence has done that (and was ridiculed for it). A person is responsible with or without pre-decided syugim. That does not mean that these syugim don't prevent issues. We are fortunate that chazal made these syugim and we don't need to think of them ourselves.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Where we would be without hilchos yichud and halachic boundaries
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2017, 12:17:00 PM »
A previous post suggested that there many men who do just fine without the halachos- obviously not all men harass women. I was pointing out that the many great people that lived before hilchos yichud were enacted are proof that it is humanly possible. Many of them overcame their basic nature after working on themselves. Today the average person is not putting in the effort to struggle to overcome his base nature. Therefore the fact that there are many men who don’t engage in this behavior likely has more to do with their nature/ environment. A less aggressive/ assertive type will act differently that an “alpha male”. To expect a man who is naturally more of the latter type to work on himself overcome his nature without hilchos yichud is unrealistic. Are there some who do? Probably. But probably a very small minority.

This is where you confuse me.  Is human male nature to prey on women?  At first you say it is, but then say it's only human nature for the "alpha male" type. 

Offline cmey

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Re: Where we would be without hilchos yichud and halachic boundaries
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2017, 01:14:20 PM »
This is where you confuse me.  Is human male nature to prey on women?  At first you say it is, but then say it's only human nature for the "alpha male" type.

How would you define the widespread and pervasive nature of this problem, even among the upper echelons of our society, who’s magnitude  is becoming more apparent each day? I think “prey” is a very strong word. Do you think these are all bad people who would knock an old lady down and steal her purse given the opportunity? Or are these basically good people who are trying to deal with an impulse that they are ill equipped to handle properly? Most of these men would probably tell you that they were just being flirtatious or the like.

I think it’s fair to say that it’s human nature to take some liberties with women that might be considered inappropriate by an objective viewer where there are no boundaries or fear of repercussions. The more aggressive/assertive a man is the more that will express itself in the nature of those interactions...
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 02:04:54 PM by cmey »

Offline Dan

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Re: Where we would be without hilchos yichud and halachic boundaries
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2017, 07:37:01 PM »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

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Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.