Author Topic: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?  (Read 2673 times)

Offline hachover

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Re: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?
« Reply #90 on: December 06, 2017, 10:11:40 PM »
That Jerusalem is Israel's capital is an objective fact. What is the reason not to state this fact? Fear of violence. That is terrorism. Using violence to terrorize people for political gain.

If you want to stand against terror, you need to stand against all terror. If terror works for Jerusalem as capital, it works for anything and everything too. Rule #1: You don't negotiate with or give in to terrorists. It just perpetuates the cycle.

What Trump did today (knowingly or unknowingly) is stand up to Arab terror in a major way.

Yes, he stood up to terrorists, but he also gave them more reasons to attack Jews and get away with it. And while the act was indeed defiant, it accomplishes nothing. No different from telling Taiwan that they are an independent nation - it doesn't change their reality one iota, but it ticks off the Chinese bigly.
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Re: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?
« Reply #91 on: December 06, 2017, 10:16:11 PM »
The other side feels all that is in play and needs to be decided. Are you asking me to find links them basically saying that?
In reality it isn't. What does it help to feed this delusion?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Yammer

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Re: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?
« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2017, 10:17:13 PM »
Not going to go through your list. This one sticks out because I agree with you. The problem is some have argued just the opposite that it hasn't been an issue. Any idea what they are talking about?
1) It was not part of Oslo or any other agreement.
2) All of East Jerusalem, including Temple Mount, was offered and rejected.
3) It has never been a sticking point in any negotiation.

The onus is on you to say that this was a "major issue". Feel free to provide sources and prove me wrong on any of the above.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-admits-he-rejected-2008-peace-offer-from-olmert/

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?
« Reply #93 on: December 06, 2017, 10:18:14 PM »
The other side feels all that is in play and needs to be decided. Are you asking me to find links them basically saying that?

Let's go through this slowly. Fact #1: Can you name another country that didn't decide on its own capital city and had its capital city decided for them by another nation? You can't.

Fact #2: Israel calls Jerusalem its capital city.

Fact #3: Even according to the UN, or any international guidelines for a two state solution, Israel maintains sovereignty over West Jerusalem.

Now we know from fact #1 that "the other side" doesn't get a say in fact #2. If you want to say that they do, you obviously don't agree on fact #3. What else could that mean other than that you want a One State Solution (Israel gets wiped off the map)?
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Online ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2017, 10:19:25 PM »
In reality it isn't. What does it help to feed this delusion?
Don't shoot the messenger. Did I say I believe it?
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Online TimT

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Re: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?
« Reply #95 on: December 06, 2017, 10:20:53 PM »
Chaim, gonna have to blame the evangelicals for this one :)

Online ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2017, 10:21:31 PM »
Let's go through this slowly. Fact #1: Can you name another country that didn't decide on its own capital city and had its capital city decided for them by another nation? You can't.

Fact #2: Israel calls Jerusalem its capital city.

Fact #3: Even according to the UN, or any international guidelines for a two state solution, Israel maintains sovereignty over West Jerusalem.

Now we know from fact #1 that "the other side" doesn't get a say in fact #2. If you want to say that they do, you obviously don't agree on fact #3. What else could that mean other than that you want a One State Solution (Israel gets wiped off the map)?
Don't shoot the messenger. Did I say I believe it?
My original point was two fold. This hurts the peace process and will put Americans at risk.
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Online ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2017, 10:22:01 PM »
Chaim, gonna have to blame the evangelicals for this one :)
Fine with me as I never liked them.  :P
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Re: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2017, 10:23:17 PM »
Fine with me as I never liked them.  :P
That explains all the rage :)

Offline Yammer

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Re: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?
« Reply #99 on: December 06, 2017, 10:23:37 PM »
Yes, he stood up to terrorists, but he also gave them more reasons to attack Jews and get away with it. And while the act was indeed defiant, it accomplishes nothing. No different from telling Taiwan that they are an independent nation - it doesn't change their reality one iota, but it ticks off the Chinese bigly.
Do you suggest that we remove every single American boot/plane/ship from the middle East, so that ISIS can't claim that the reason for their jihad isn't for American to pay​ for the murders of innocent Muslims?

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2017, 10:26:59 PM »
Yes, he stood up to terrorists, but he also gave them more reasons to attack Jews and get away with it. And while the act was indeed defiant, it accomplishes nothing. No different from telling Taiwan that they are an independent nation - it doesn't change their reality one iota, but it ticks off the Chinese bigly.

That's the whole purpose of this terrorism blackmail. "Take down the metal detectors, or else we'll murder children." "Don't visit Temple Mount, or we'll start an Intifada." Besides the fact that most of these uprisings can be traced back to being orchestrated before the supposed tipping point, if you keep giving in out of fear, you perpetuate the threat of violence. Because it works.

Again, I don't know that Trump did this for this reason, but in effect he stood up to terror today, and rather than give them a reason to kill Jews, helped show that violence as blackmail is not guaranteed to work anymore. I don't think this is enough to end Palestinian terror, obviously, but its a huge step.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?
« Reply #101 on: December 06, 2017, 10:28:56 PM »
https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-admits-he-rejected-2008-peace-offer-from-olmert/

This does not say that Jerusalem was the sticking point. It actually says he was willing to accept the deal in theory, but needed to see a map. It doesn't specify what parts of the map would or would not have been an issue. If Jerusalem was the issue, why would he have asked to see a map, and not just said no immediately?
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?
« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2017, 10:43:10 PM »
My original point was two fold. This hurts the peace process and will put Americans at risk.

So you concede the points. If the "other side" believes it, it is for one reason only: They believe in a One State Solution - Israel wiped off the map.

Which brings us to:
This hurts the peace process.
How can you have a peace process if they don't want Israel to exist? Where is the starting point for negotiation? As @aygart has been saying all along, this helps the process, because once you establish that Jerusalem is Israel's capital - in other words, Israel EXISTS, and will always exist, they can then START to negotiate.

will put Americans at risk.
Disagree strongly for many reasons, but I've been hogging this thread a bit, so I'll just say one: Fighting against Palestinian terrorism helps the fight against global terrorism. Americans will be saved in the long run if they continue this path of non capitulation to terrorist blackmail.
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Offline Yammer

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Re: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?
« Reply #103 on: December 06, 2017, 10:43:26 PM »
This does not say that Jerusalem was the sticking point. It actually says he was willing to accept the deal in theory, but needed to see a map. It doesn't specify what parts of the map would or would not have been an issue. If Jerusalem was the issue, why would he have asked to see a map, and not just said no immediately?
I'm not arguing that it wasn't part of Jerusalem, I'm just saying that 'Jerusalem" was always the derailing of the process. Because of the high political stakes of giving up Jerusalem it could never be done.

It could change now that it can be blamed on Trump

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2017, 10:44:28 PM »
'Jerusalem" was always the derailing of the process.

Source?
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