Poll

Are you frum and do you daven daily?

I'm frum and I (mostly) daven with a minyan 3x a day
72 (59%)
I'm frum and I (mostly) daven without a minyan 3x a day
13 (10.7%)
I'm frum and I (mostly) daven daily
20 (16.4%)
I'm frum and I (mostly) don't daven every day
12 (9.8%)
I'm not frum and I (mostly) daven daily
1 (0.8%)
I'm not frum and I (mostly) don't daven daily
4 (3.3%)

Total Members Voted: 122

Author Topic: Do you Daven?  (Read 4679 times)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2018, 06:11:05 PM »
Please explain to me why it's an issue?

 If he told me he's done with this 'fake frumness' and wants us to move to a non-jewish community- I might even be ok with it.


If we define fake frumness as acting frum but not having any relationship with gd (ie not davening to him etc), then I hear what you are saying. Otherwise this needs work....

Better question, why does it bother YOU that he doesn't daven? Just cultural, or you are disturbed by the lack of commitment? Do you daven?

Offline wayfe

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Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2018, 06:12:30 PM »
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned."
Richard Feynman

Offline Mordyk

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Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2018, 06:13:10 PM »
Here is my theory: Most married males, over time, begin to daven more often. This often occurs as they are raising kids and sending them off to school, and recognize that they should be some form of a role model if they want their kids to get up for minyan in yeshiva.

Consequently, girls grow up in a home where they see their dad davening (him having already evolved), and assume this is the norm. Hence, they expect this as a bare minimum from potential spouses, and are shocked when their husbands in their 20s/30s don't go to minyan.

However, my experience is that davening penetration in the 20s/30s group is quite low, even among people who are 'good' (for lack of a better term) people.
very well said! i totally agree with this theory

Offline HBS

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Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2018, 06:17:46 PM »
Here is my theory: Most married males, over time, begin to daven more often. This often occurs as they are raising kids and sending them off to school, and recognize that they should be some form of a role model if they want their kids to get up for minyan in yeshiva.

Consequently, girls grow up in a home where they see their dad davening (him having already evolved), and assume this is the norm. Hence, they expect this as a bare minimum from potential spouses, and are shocked when their husbands in their 20s/30s don't go to minyan.

However, my experience is that davening penetration in the 20s/30s group is quite low, even among people who are 'good' (for lack of a better term) people.
I think there are a few categories of people.
There are those that truly don't believe, there are those that deep down believe but are not willing to push themselves, there are those that truly believe and try, but may slip up occasionally.
This is true for all mitzvos, including davening.
If you went through your entire life doing things by rote and not by having a meaningful relationship with God, then the second it gets rough (or you find that there are enough people like you) you will slack off. And maybe not show up/daven at all.
The difference between our father's generation and our generation was that in some sense, lines were drawn more clearly. To deviate would put you in a different group.

Offline sky121

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Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2018, 06:17:49 PM »



Why is it that my father would not dream of skipping a minyan and my husband's father walks over a mile to shul every Shabbos and yet my husband doesn't seem to see this as an important aspect in raising a Jewish family?


I think it has to do with how connected you are to davening in the first place. And the fact that many in the younger generations feel less connected to going to shul and davening as out parents and grandparents.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline wayfe

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Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2018, 06:20:06 PM »
Here is my theory: Most married males, over time, begin to daven more often. This often occurs as they are raising kids and sending them off to school, and recognize that they should be some form of a role model if they want their kids to get up for minyan in yeshiva.

Consequently, girls grow up in a home where they see their dad davening (him having already evolved), and assume this is the norm. Hence, they expect this as a bare minimum from potential spouses, and are shocked when their husbands in their 20s/30s don't go to minyan.

However, my experience is that davening penetration in the 20s/30s group is quite low, even among people who are 'good' (for lack of a better term) people.

Sorry, I missed your response.

So this is all just a big cycle of deceit?
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned."
Richard Feynman

Offline Dawie

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Offline iAm

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Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2018, 06:21:16 PM »
I think there are a few categories of people.
There are those that truly don't believe, there are those that deep down believe but are not willing to push themselves, there are those that truly believe and try, but may slip up occasionally.
This is true for all mitzvos, including davening.
If you went through your entire life doing things by rote and not by having a meaningful relationship with God, then the second it gets rough (or you find that there are enough people like you) you will slack off. And maybe not show up/daven at all.
The difference between our father's generation and our generation was that in some sense, lines were drawn more clearly. To deviate would put you in a different group.

I think your three categories are a gross oversimplification. Ill also just emphasize that male higher education does not place much emphasis on davening in general.

There happens to be another issue that you are touching upon, that our education system in general doesnt emphasize "connection" which arguably is at the essence of Yadus. So you have the biggest masmidim in yeshiva, who often feel empty and have no connection to God
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Offline iAm

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Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2018, 06:22:41 PM »
Sorry, I missed your response.

So this is all just a big cycle of deceit?

lol I dont think there is malicious intent. I just think that there's a misunderstanding of what counts in "The Male Mind" for being a good Jew.
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Offline Mordyk

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Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2018, 06:23:06 PM »
Sorry, I missed your response.

So this is all just a big cycle of deceit?
why deceit? how about a learning process and as people get older they see whats important. or if they need to be an example for their children so it gives them an extra push to do what they believed along along is correct. just all along they slacked off

Offline wayfe

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Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2018, 06:24:50 PM »
The starting point is that men that dont go to minyan, dont view going to minyan as "fake frumness" at all. They just dont do it. There's also the fact that male education (unfortunately or not), does not put nearly as much an emphasis on it as female education.

But regardless of education, if you are willing to sacrifice so much- why wouldn't you just go the whole hog and include davening into your act?
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned."
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Offline gingyguy

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Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2018, 06:25:48 PM »
I think your three categories are a gross oversimplification. Ill also just emphasize that male higher education does not place much emphasis on davening in general.

There happens to be another issue that you are touching upon, that our education system in general doesnt emphasize "connection" which arguably is at the essence of Yadus. So you have the biggest masmidim in yeshiva, who often feel empty and have no connection to God
as someone that went through the system i can say that that is not true.while it is possible that boys and girls are taught about the benefits davening on different level, the yeshiva i went to (standard BP litvishe ) stressed it very much
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Offline Dan

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Offline HBS

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Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2018, 06:29:00 PM »
But regardless of education, if you are willing to sacrifice so much- why wouldn't you just go the whole hog and include davening into your act?
First of all, what sacrifice? Not eating treif?

You are taught in school that certain things are cardinal sins, i.e., kares for treif... Compared to tefilla btzibur that one equivocates and says it's only derabonnon.
Not staying it's right, but that's how the yetzer hora works.

Offline wayfe

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Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2018, 06:30:05 PM »
If we define fake frumness as acting frum but not having any relationship with gd (ie not davening to him etc), then I hear what you are saying. Otherwise this needs work....

Better question, why does it bother YOU that he doesn't daven? Just cultural, or you are disturbed by the lack of commitment? Do you daven?

Yes, you got my definition of pseudofrum.

It bothers me for a few reasons:
1. As mentioned we are buying into the exorbitantly expensive frum lifestyle
2. We (personally) have a lot of daven for (not just in a general world peace kind of way....)
3. Like @iAm mentioned, my daughter is nearly 3 and I want her father davening to be a part of life.
4. It makes me not respect him, because I see him as teenager slacking off, not taking his responsibility to his family, to his parenting role seriously
5. I daven on occasion- but then it's not my mitzvah.
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned."
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