Author Topic: How do U define yourself, what does it mean & how would you like to see your kid  (Read 4409 times)

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 5842
  • Total likes: 869
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
I'm understanding your question as, why do I believe in Torah shebiksav. And whatever that reason is, why doesn't it apply to Torah Baal peh.

So I think that the main reason why I believe in תורה שבכתב is because I was raised by parents that believe in it and taught me that. Now why does it stop there and doesn't apply to תורה שבעל פה also? I'm not 100% clear. But I think it's because I see two different lifestyles in each one that don't match with each other. Therefore I chose the one that I feel like was passed through less hands.

I have to think about it a little more and I have to go as it's almost Shabbos by me. I'll try to answer it better at a later time.
How do you interpret Torah Shebichsav?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 08:28:14 PM by aygart »
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Definitions

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jan 2018
  • Posts: 228
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
How do you interpret Torah Shebichsav?
I'm not understanding your question. I don't have any specific way. And for your question before your edit - I don't sit in the dark on Shabbos.
Jack of all trades, master of none.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 5842
  • Total likes: 869
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
I'm not understanding your question. I don't have any specific way. And for your question before your edit - I don't sit in the dark on Shabbos.
My question was whether or not you interpret literally like the tzedukim did. It sounds like you use al peh to interpret and do not interpret literally.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Definitions

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jan 2018
  • Posts: 228
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
My question was whether or not you interpret literally like the tzedukim did. It sounds like you use al peh to interpret and do not interpret literally.
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. What did I write that made you think I don't interpret literally?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 09:45:47 PM by Definitions »
Jack of all trades, master of none.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 3854
  • Total likes: 398
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
My question was whether or not you interpret literally like the tzedukim did. It sounds like you use al peh to interpret and do not interpret literally.
How do you know how the tzedukim interpreted (except for a few cases where the Gemara lists, like ממחרת השבת)?

But just like I said that on this thread it doesn’t really matter how @Definitions defines frum, because it’s about what one’s own label means for themselves, we shouldn’t really care in the context of this thread about tzedukim.

However, in trying to understand @Definitions meaning of his label, I don’t really understand what is meant by

But I think it's because I see two different lifestyles in each one that don't match with each other. Therefore I chose the one that I feel like was passed through less hands.

I am especially intrigued by the label “not frum, Religious Jew”, as it brings back memories of a co-worker of mine (from the time @Definitions was a young child) who defined himself as “very religious” (he religiously attended Reform temple.) I really would like to understand what it means.

And maybe to add to the questions in my OP (and this is obviously directed at anyone responding to the OP, including those who responded already): What brings you to be what you are now as per your own definition? (Thanks @JoeyShmoe for sharing in your post).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline sky121

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 11142
  • Total likes: 92
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
How do you know how the tzedukim interpreted (except for a few cases where the Gemara lists, like ממחרת השבת)?

But just like I said that on this thread it doesn’t really matter how @Definitions defines frum, because it’s about what one’s own label means for themselves, we shouldn’t really care in the context of this thread about tzedukim.

However, in trying to understand @Definitions meaning of his label, I don’t really understand what is meant by

\who defined himself as “very religious” (he religiously attended Reform temple.) I really would like to understand what it means.
\@JoeyShmoe for sharing in your post).
Religious to me means devout to your beliefs. You can be a religous Orthodox person, or a religious Refrom etc.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 5842
  • Total likes: 869
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Religious to me means devout to your beliefs. You can be a religous Orthodox person, or a religious Refrom etc.
+1
 
I had an English teacher who told us that until he came to teach in the Yeshiva has considered himself to be very religious.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 3854
  • Total likes: 398
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Religious to me means devout to your beliefs. You can be a religous Orthodox person, or a religious Refrom etc.
So it’s an adjective or possibly a qualifier.

Is it part of how you define/label yourself?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Definitions

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jan 2018
  • Posts: 228
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Is it part of how you define/label yourself?
Yes. It's to let other people know that I'm not calling myself a Jew only because I was born to Jewish parents.
Jack of all trades, master of none.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 3854
  • Total likes: 398
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770

Yes. It's to let other people know that I'm not calling myself a Jew only because I was born to Jewish parents.
My question was directed at @sky121.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Definitions

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jan 2018
  • Posts: 228
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
However, in trying to understand @Definitions meaning of his label, I don’t really understand what is meant by
I was a little pressed for time when writing that. What I meant to say there was that, the way I see the frum yeshivish world today is an accurate depiction of what living with Torah shebal peh would look like. And from what I see in the Torah shebiksav it doesn't sound like that's how the people lived back then.

I still have to think if that answers the question originally posed to me, but that was my thought process then.
Jack of all trades, master of none.

Offline Definitions

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jan 2018
  • Posts: 228
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
My question was directed at @sky121.
Oh. Didn't realize
Jack of all trades, master of none.

Offline sky121

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 11142
  • Total likes: 92
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
So it’s an adjective or possibly a qualifier.

Is it part of how you define/label yourself?

It all depends on the context of the conversation.
And it depends who I am speaking to.

Sometimes I do tell people that I am "a religious Jew"
but it's not specifically something that I feel defines me in this big and meaningful way.
Where as many times I tell others I am "religious on purpose" or a passionately religious person and that feels more defining of who I am.

Depending on the conversation and the context the word can mean slightly different things.

In general if someone knows I am Jewish and asks if I am religious that means to me 'holding of laws, and customs and perhaps beliefs'  -

It really depends on who I am speaking to- and the conversation in general.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 3854
  • Total likes: 398
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
"I strive to be a Lubavitcher." (That entire sentence is my own label for myself, and I hope it will always be).

Lastly, when it comes to how I would like to see my kids grow up, I would want my kids to choose their own path, and not do anything just because I do it. I want them to live their lives by conscious choice (and while I hope they make the same choices I made, or even better ones, it is most important to me that it will all be conscious choices).

I've been thinking about what I wrote there, and feel that there might be a serious misunderstanding regarding how I would like to see my kids.

It seems to me that people took this to mean that I would be OK with whatever path my kids choose, as long as it's their own choice.

While that might have some truth to it, it is definitely not what I meant. As a matter of fact, I believe that part and parcel of striving to be, or being, a Lubavitcher, is to do things by one's own choice and cognizance. Though my kids will have grown up with a very different background than I did, I really would like to see them make CHOICES similar to mine. I would be disappointed if they were to look and act similar to me, but that wouldn't be by choice. Dress code, full beard, minhagim, etc. are somewhat meaningless if they are just done by default, with no true awareness and choice. Lack of awareness and choice is to me the antithesis of what being a Lubavitcher means.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline eyj

  • Dansdeals Bronze Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2017
  • Posts: 25
  • Total likes: 24
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
1. How do I define myself?
I would label myself as a "not frum, religious Jew".

2. What does that mean to me?
The best way I can explain it in short, is that I don't feel the need to listen to halacha. How do I define "halacha"? In this context it means any halacha that I don't think is included in Torah shebiksav. So I guess another label for me would be "someone who is very similar to the tzedokim".

3. How would I like to see my kids?
I would want them to have a very strong belief in Hashem and in תנ"ך. I would want them to have a close relationship with Hashem. And I think "close relationship" is self explanatory but I'll explain what that means to me. It means that you always keep in mind that there's a God and you daven to Him for anything that you feel you want. It means that you thank Him for any small thing that He gives you. It means thanking Him for preventing any damage whether monetary or physical. It means asking for forgiveness for things that you could have done better and didn't (Kal vechomer to wrong things). I think that those 4 things are the basics of how I would define a close relationship.

If the mods feels that this post isn't appropriate, I fully understand. It's just something I've wanted to get off my chest recently and this thread seemed like the right spot. Although I'm assuming ExGingi wasn't looking for this type of answer. (Especially since the reverse of how I define myself would not give an accurate explanation of how I define "frum").

“But I think it's because I see two different lifestyles in each one that don't match with each other. Therefore I chose the one that I feel like was passed through less hands. ”

Trying to understand your definition of Torah shebicsav here. I’m assuming you have some methodology of interpreting the various parts of Torah Shebicsav that aren’t quite understandable without some sort of method of interpretation- tefillin etc etc unless the idea would be that earlier generations left it to the individual to define it as it meant to them (as opposed to having some sort of understanding that was adopted village/ community wide; something that would obviously have to be shared with the next generation of villagers etc.)

I’m understanding your idea as being that the contrast between the Jews in Tanach and the current lifestyle is so drastic that one must be inauthentic, and being that the former passed through less hands the latter must be an imposter. Does this way of defining yourself also depend on defining Hashem’s role in the world a little different than others would define it? Without putting much thought into it I always took it for granted that anyone who believed in Hashem would comsider it a given that after putting in all that effort to give the Torah, He would want some form of his torah that he communicated to the world to continue to exist and be readily accessible in some format that is acceptable to him. (After all He is omnipotent and can pull this off if He desires.)

Since I am not aware of too many people living the biblical Torah lifestyle, or accessible guides to that lifestyle who can help someone who wants to live with that definition, if that is what one feels  that Hashem desires him to do, what I’m understanding is that the way you define yourself also incorporates a different idea of what Hashem and his giving of the Torah means to you vs. someone who defines themselves as yeshivish etc. Am I getting that right?