Author Topic: Dating in the jewish world while disabled  (Read 3997 times)

Offline gingyguy

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2018, 07:52:21 PM »
'This is silly. Any one thats not married at my age, will have one night stands if they so desire.. . I can tell you from experience, its not like the movie "up in the air" but its really easy to hook up if one so desires.. I'm not into one night stands but plenty are and this was where the shiduch system failed them.

I have said time and again, I wont date conventionally. I am not a circus freak.

I met a guy that dated 300 women. Thats not for me
the shidduch system failed them or yiddishkeit failed them?
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Offline sky121

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #76 on: February 13, 2018, 08:23:21 PM »
May all sound crazy, but would #MeToo be a thing if everyone avoided said situations?
Could people help avoid certain scenarios if they set themselves boundries? Definitely. But I in no way believe that would fix most of the #metoo problems.  These problems have always been around. Even back in the day when men and women were a lot more conservative, dressed more modest, and were more apt to have boundries between the opposite sex that we don't have today. 
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Offline chevron

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #77 on: February 13, 2018, 10:50:41 PM »
the shidduch system failed them or yiddishkeit failed them?

Judaism is a religion, a belief system, an identity.

It also is a way of life, practices etc but that is widely different.  The system didnt fail me And I didn't fail the system in terms of Judaism.

My belief system and practices may be called to doubt, but this is my journey and vastly more challenging than others. Most don't have to examine uncomfortable questions about Judaism, identity, relationship with god.

But yes, the shiduch system fails people like me.

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #78 on: February 13, 2018, 11:21:07 PM »
Does G-d test us at times (non-PC)?
וַיְהִ֗י אַחַר֙ הַדְּבָרִ֣ים הָאֵ֔לֶּה וְהָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים נִסָּ֖ה אֶת־אַבְרָהָ֑ם וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֵלָ֔יו אַבְרָהָ֖ם וַיֹּ֥אמֶר הִנֵּֽנִי׃
And it came to pass after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, Abraham; and he said, Behold, here I am. (Genesis 22:1)

It's not a complete proof since you can argue that it was specifically for Avraham. But philosophically I think it's agreed upon by everyone that it's a yes.
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #79 on: February 13, 2018, 11:25:50 PM »
And it came to pass after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, Abraham; and he said, Behold, here I am. (Genesis 22:1)
Now why wasn't I thinking about that when I posted the question?  :)
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Offline Dan

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2018, 12:00:53 AM »
Could people help avoid certain scenarios if they set themselves boundries? Definitely. But I in no way believe that would fix most of the #metoo problems.  These problems have always been around. Even back in the day when men and women were a lot more conservative, dressed more modest, and were more apt to have boundries between the opposite sex that we don't have today. 
It wouldn't eliminate creeps, but if those women practiced halacha, how would a Weinstein situation occur time and time again?

I'm not blaming them even one iota. But I am genuinely curious how that wouldn't help.
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Offline Denverite

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2018, 12:29:14 AM »

But yes, the shiduch system fails people like me.

Of course the formal shidduch system fails you and many others.  There are different positives and negatives to different styles of dating.

FFB women donít necessarily appreciate the respect and seriousness frum men give them. I remember my coworkers being blown away that a guy would fly in to meet me and not expect anything physical.  I also know that both my husband and I were on the same frum dating website and we never even saw each otherís profile because we didnít fit the otherís preferences (we were both outside the otherís age range, for example). 

@Dan, I know you appreciate your parents vetting girls for you and finding your awesome wife.  I think itís such a bracha that they were able to do that for you.  If things hadnít worked out as planned though and you were single at 30 would you need that same amount of intervention?

I think itís SO important to have informal situations for people to meet and couldnít we all agree that over a certain age (for giggles, letís say 25) it isnít going to lead to any more temptation than just normal living, working, etc.?  Itís not going to lead to more one night stands. Are all these relationships going to be shomer negia until the chuppah, probably not, but I know lots of different types of people who consider themselves basically frum that are open about lots of stuff and none of them slept with their spouse before they got married. Frankly when youíre older and lived more you probably do need to date longer and get closer before marriage because you are trying to join two much more complex beings. 

Should we keep the ideal of the formal frum shidduch system? Absolutely and I hope it continues to work for the majority of people and will one day work for my children (yikes itís BĒH coming up pretty soon for me)!  Itís pure insanity, however, for older men and women to not be able to socialize in mixed company to meet people (and this is coming from someone who believes that men and women canít really be friends).  My roommate and I used to host mixed Shabbos meals and they were fun and now married couples definitely met at them.  And we also introduced people who got to meet and avoid a very painful blind date because of getting to spend some time together in an innocuous setting and realize a date would be a waste of time.  We followed Halacha though and were very careful about yichud (I remember once we somehow ended up with only one guy as our guest and so we had to keep our apartment door open and see all the strange looks of our neighbors going by)!  Like I said, I met my husband at a shabbat dinner, another friend met her husband at kiddush. We both used an informal shadchan to set the actual first date but they werenít really involved after a couple dates because it just wasnít necessary. My roommate met her husband at Simchas Torah and they just started dating.  Thatís not a shanda, itís awesome and the Kehilla has a cart full of frum kids because of it!

These kinds of encounters are public, wholesome, normal interactions.  It is important after meeting someone not to ďhang outĒ (as @Dan also noted, Halacha clearly guides us on appropriate settings) and to move to a pretty formal frum dating if there is mutual interest but what the heck does that have to do with how you meet?  Yíall are throwing the baby out with the bath water with your insistence only on pre-screened, formal introductions.

Offline Dan

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2018, 12:34:16 AM »
No argument to any of that, but I do think it's a bedieved situation if things don't work out within a couple years in the shidduch system.
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Offline CS1

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2018, 12:36:35 AM »
No argument to any of that, but I do think it's a bedieved situation if things don't work out within a couple years in the shidduch system.

in the past, most singles were in the shidduch system for an average of 1-3 years.

Currently, there are singles searching for 2-10+ years.

Offline Denverite

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2018, 12:55:13 AM »
No argument to any of that, but I do think it's a bedieved situation if things don't work out within a couple years in the shidduch system.

100% itís totally Bedieved.  I donít see aged 25+ FFB girls, living and working on their own in Lakewood or Crown Heights (and unfortunately I know a number of them), having any of these kind of wholesome mixed settings though, and I think they and the Kehilla are suffering from it.  Iím honestly not sure what the solution is and how to have these adults make this shift, with community support and approval (without these singles basically having to start aligning as modern orthodox).
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 12:58:42 AM by Denverite »

Offline sky121

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #85 on: February 14, 2018, 07:23:14 AM »
It wouldn't eliminate creeps, but if those women practiced halacha, how would a Weinstein situation occur time and time again?

I'm not blaming them even one iota. But I am genuinely curious how that wouldn't help.
It WOULD help. I just don't think it would solve the whole situation as much as people tend to think. There's no doubt it would help.
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Offline saw50st8

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #86 on: February 14, 2018, 07:36:21 AM »
I'm really scratching my head at jumping from mixed gender socialization at appropriate ages to one night stands.

I grew up MO in Monsey, went to a RW elementary school and then a MO high school (my sisters on the other hand ended up at Bais Yaakov and frummed out/shidduch dated). I don't think any of my friends at any point had one night stands. Besides, if you are talking about socializing singles who are looking to get married, presumably they would be looking for a real relationship and work towards that, same as a regular shidduch. (Never mind that I've heard some really creepy stories from friends who shidduch date) I can't think of a single negative reason for there to be separate seating for singles who are looking to get married at a wedding.


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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2018, 07:39:57 AM »
It wouldn't eliminate creeps, but if those women practiced halacha, how would a Weinstein situation occur time and time again?

I'm not blaming them even one iota. But I am genuinely curious how that wouldn't help.

Harvey Weinstein took advantage of his position of power. There are many men in positions of power who do that, some subtly some overtly. Many (creepy) rabbonim who take advantage of women quote real or fake halacha to them under the guise of being a Rabbi and knowing it. There are ways to prevent sexual assault and practical steps people can take, but it won't really stop until we as a society hand out some real repercussions for sexual harassment starting at really small levels. It shouldn't have to reach the point of physical assault before someone is taken seriously.

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #88 on: February 14, 2018, 07:48:59 AM »
I am trying to understand this one night stand stuff. Do you think in the non-frum world those looking for their soulmate are engaging in one night stands?
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #89 on: February 14, 2018, 07:56:21 AM »


Of course the formal shidduch system fails you and many others.  There are different positives and negatives to different styles of dating.

FFB women donít necessarily appreciate the respect and seriousness frum men give them. I remember my coworkers being blown away that a guy would fly in to meet me and not expect anything physical.  I also know that both my husband and I were on the same frum dating website and we never even saw each otherís profile because we didnít fit the otherís preferences (we were both outside the otherís age range, for example). 

@Dan, I know you appreciate your parents vetting girls for you and finding your awesome wife.  I think itís such a bracha that they were able to do that for you.  If things hadnít worked out as planned though and you were single at 30 would you need that same amount of intervention?

I think itís SO important to have informal situations for people to meet and couldnít we all agree that over a certain age (for giggles, letís say 25) it isnít going to lead to any more temptation than just normal living, working, etc.?  Itís not going to lead to more one night stands. Are all these relationships going to be shomer negia until the chuppah, probably not, but I know lots of different types of people who consider themselves basically frum that are open about lots of stuff and none of them slept with their spouse before they got married. Frankly when youíre older and lived more you probably do need to date longer and get closer before marriage because you are trying to join two much more complex beings. 

Should we keep the ideal of the formal frum shidduch system? Absolutely and I hope it continues to work for the majority of people and will one day work for my children (yikes itís BĒH coming up pretty soon for me)!  Itís pure insanity, however, for older men and women to not be able to socialize in mixed company to meet people (and this is coming from someone who believes that men and women canít really be friends).  My roommate and I used to host mixed Shabbos meals and they were fun and now married couples definitely met at them.  And we also introduced people who got to meet and avoid a very painful blind date because of getting to spend some time together in an innocuous setting and realize a date would be a waste of time.  We followed Halacha though and were very careful about yichud (I remember once we somehow ended up with only one guy as our guest and so we had to keep our apartment door open and see all the strange looks of our neighbors going by)!  Like I said, I met my husband at a shabbat dinner, another friend met her husband at kiddush. We both used an informal shadchan to set the actual first date but they werenít really involved after a couple dates because it just wasnít necessary. My roommate met her husband at Simchas Torah and they just started dating.  Thatís not a shanda, itís awesome and the Kehilla has a cart full of frum kids because of it!

These kinds of encounters are public, wholesome, normal interactions.  It is important after meeting someone not to ďhang outĒ (as @Dan also noted, Halacha clearly guides us on appropriate settings) and to move to a pretty formal frum dating if there is mutual interest but what the heck does that have to do with how you meet?  Yíall are throwing the baby out with the bath water with your insistence only on pre-screened, formal introductions.
+1
 Also, I  wouldn't be suprised if there was no correlation between how couples met and if they were shomer negiah between engagement and marriage- (if you remove legnth of engagement as a variable).