Polish Govt Denies Complicity in Holocaust Criminalizes saying Polish Death Camp

[hvaces42]

Should have stopped after H. Don't understand the second part.

They criminalized using the words "polish death camp"

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Which article? The bottom line is its holocaust denial. Its whitewashing history which is denial of the truth and facts. All that is, is another form of the holocaust denial virus.

This article. I respect your view but no where does it say they deny the H.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43102226

[hvaces42]

Because the article doesnt say it, does not mean what they are saying and doing is not a form of denial. I really dont think you appreciate it.

Besides it being offensive, its a form of revisionist history, which is denial of facts. Denial that their countrymen were complicit with the occupying Germans and even after the war committed atrocities when the survivors came home.

So technically there were no Polish death camps. But the Germans knew where they could get away with building them.

[jj1000]

Is it terrible if I hear where the guy is coming from on the point that Jews were complicate as much as many poles were.

The Nazis came in and took power. Many Poles told on Jews which lead to their deaths and many Jews did the same. Many Jews beat other Jews as well. These were dark times and I can't even begin to understand what it was like. 

From an outsiders perspective I can see how the Gestapo were very similar to most things the Poles did.

I strongly disagree with this and think it's different when one group of people are being targeted and murdered and acting in self preservation while the other brutally and often gleefully killed or lead to the killing of Jews.

[aygart]

Is it terrible if I hear where the guy is coming from on the point that Jews were complicate as much as many poles were.

The Nazis came in and took power. Many Poles told on Jews which lead to their deaths and many Jews did the same. Many Jews beat other Jews as well. These were dark times and I can't even begin to understand what it was like. 

From an outsiders perspective I can see how the Gestapo were very similar to most things the Poles did.

I strongly disagree with this and think it's different when one group of people are being targeted and murdered and acting in self preservation while the other brutally and often gleefully killed or lead to the killing of Jews.

You ,ay want to reword this. I am having a hard time figuring out your point.

[hvaces42]

You ,ay want to reword this. I am having a hard time figuring out your point.

I think he's saying the few Jews who were part of the Judenraat were complicit as well. Therefore what was said was in fact true. So we cant blame them for their acts because we had a few who did it too.

Classic "Whataboutism". See every comment that equates this to Israeli govt behavior.

[aygart]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/polish-pm-visits-grave-of-nazi-collaborators-drawing-fresh-ire/

[sky121]

Its not Friday, but...

Why are we supporting the Polish economy at all?

Can't we ask that of other countries as well?
I always feel like that when people visit the Ukraine for instance. 

[hvaces42]

Can't we ask that of other countries as well?
I always feel like that when people visit the Ukraine for instance.

We absolutely could. Except the biggest Jewish event in Poland, Lizhensk, is less than 3 weeks away and this is still evolving.

I personally have an issue because my son's yeshiva, along with many others in EY are all planning trips for the boys over the next few weeks as well.

My personal protest over the years has been that I never sleep overnight in Poland. Even if I am going to Lizhensk, I wont support their economy. 

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Is going to Auschwitz supporting the Polish economy? It was one of the most moving experiences I ever had.

[hvaces42]

Is going to Auschwitz supporting the Polish economy? It was one of the most moving experiences I ever had.

Your experience notwithstanding I agree in principle with this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/14/opinion/israel-poland-holocaust-auschwitz.html

My Grandmother, who died 5 weeks ago at age 97, was a survivor of Auschwitz. I have always had a fascination with it, but have never had an opportunity to visit. She would not speak of it. So I guess my fascination was more on the unknown. I am now seriously rethinking if I ever want to visit.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Your experience notwithstanding I agree in principle with this:

You can read about these things all you want. It does not do it justice. My daughter was like why are going there? She didn't ask that when we were done.

How long are we going to hold those responsible for something they had nothing to do with because those before them committed these horrific acts?

[davidrotts63]

You can read about these things all you want. It does not do it justice. My daughter was like why are going there? She didn't ask that when we were done.

Does she know about your secret Judaism?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Does she know about your secret Judaism?

She was amazed I know some things when the driver was asking questions. She was like Dad you are a sports guy. 

[hvaces42]

You can read about these things all you want. It does not do it justice. My daughter was like why are going there? She didn't ask that when we were done.

How long are we going to hold those responsible for something they had nothing to do with because those before them committed these horrific acts?

"Jesus killers" sound familiar? We are 2000+ years later and they still havent fixed that falsehood. We are talking about truths here. And they still havent comes to grips with them.

[aygart]

You can read about these things all you want. It does not do it justice. My daughter was like why are going there? She didn't ask that when we were done.

How long are we going to hold those responsible for something they had nothing to do with because those before them committed these horrific acts?

By them denying and criminalizing speaking of it they are complicit themselves.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

"Jesus killers" sound familiar? We are 2000+ years later and they still havent fixed that falsehood.

Save that for Friday. Are you aware some would make the same argument that you are making here? No even if there was a thread on it I wouldn't engage in it. 

[ChaimMoskowitz]

By them denying and criminalizing speaking of it they are complicit themselves.

Going to have to respectfully disagree on the denying part. That was what confused me with the original title.

[aygart]

Going to have to respectfully disagree on the denying part. That was what confused me with the original title.

I didn't mean denying the holocaust. Even denying the part their people played in it makes them complicit. At this point I would be much quicker to support the German economy than th Polish. They have taken resposibility for it and the polish are not.

[hvaces42]

Save that for Friday. Are you aware some would make the same argument that you are making here? No even if there was a thread on it I wouldn't engage in it. 

Today is the day for that. Or maybe next month on Sunday.