Messianism among Lubavitch

[Yehuda57]

Let's not put out too much dirty laundry. I'll just state that quite a few years ago Avremel Shemtov got maftir on Shabbos Gimmel Tammuz at a minyan where I was davening in 770 main shul.

And to answer your question more directly, if it weren't for the Gabbay that supports anarchy, the answer would probably be that they could come without getting hurt.

This is kind of true, that sometimes they would be able to enter, but it's tough to go in if you're essentially playing Russian roulette on if you'll get beaten up or not.

[Dan]

Let's not put out too much dirty laundry. I'll just state that quite a few years ago Avremel Shemtov got maftir on Shabbos Gimmel Tammuz at a minyan where I was davening in 770 main shul.

And to answer your question more directly, if it weren't for the Gabbay that supports anarchy, the answer would probably be that they could come without getting hurt. Unfortunately, anyone who is opposed to anarchy is subject to being hurt. I was personally threatened when I tried to insist on orderly conduct when I was davening at the omud. I eventually gave up fighting when I saw that said Gabbay refused to back me up with some basic rules of conduct.

So, antis do visit 770 when they can do so without the threat of violence from tunnel diggers. Why would a meshichist not visit the Ohel when the Rebbe would visit his Shver all the time?

[ExGingi]

This is kind of true, that sometimes they would be able to enter, but it's tough to go in if you're essentially playing Russian roulette on if you'll get beaten up or not.

In today's day and age unfortunately there's a high likelihood of being hurt. As a matter of fact, despite the lip-service letter published on Friday, a bochur was hurt on Friday night.

This discussion doesn't belong in this thread, as it has absolutely nothing to do with Moshiach (except as a reason for delay).

[TheAsh]

Let's not put out too much dirty laundry. I'll just state that quite a few years ago Avremel Shemtov got maftir on Shabbos Gimmel Tammuz at a minyan where I was davening in 770 main shul.

And to answer your question more directly, if it weren't for the Gabbay that supports anarchy, the answer would probably be that they could come without getting hurt. Unfortunately, anyone who is opposed to anarchy is subject to being hurt. I was personally threatened when I tried to insist on orderly conduct when I was davening at the omud. I eventually gave up fighting when I saw that said Gabbay refused to back me up with some basic rules of conduct. I was probably spared by the fact that rather than fight back, I told them to go ahead and hurt me, so they knew I was serious about the consequences that they would face.

Doesn't he deserve the attribute Reb?

And I highly doubt R Shemtov believes the Rebbe is moshiach,  though I may be wrong.

[TheAsh]

No, he implied it would be his FIL, as that was his Rebbe.

The rest is extrapolation.

Correct. Does that mean there were two moshiachs simultaneously,  one for the Rebbe and one for everyone else? And of course more, once you count all the other chassidus's who should also believe the same (according to this hashkafa?)

Or maybe, just maybe, the Rebbe wasn't talking about the actual Moshiach bem David as opposed to a chassidic belief as how a chassid should act (that one should act as if).

[Dan]

Doesn't he deserve the attribute Reb?

And I highly doubt R Shemtov believes the Rebbe is moshiach,  though I may be wrong.

Out of curiosity, why the obsession over who people think is moshiach anyway?

You're thinking about it more than your average Lubavitcher, who is far more concerned with how to bring moshiach than who it is.

[TheAsh]

Out of curiosity, why the obsession over who people think is moshiach anyway?


You're thinking about it more than your average Lubavitcher, who is far more concerned with how to bring moshiach than who it is.

I find it disturbing. It's my own personal thing. Just as if I would find out a person believes Rav Shach or R Nachman is. It shows a lack of clear thinking.

[Dan]

I find it disturbing. It's my own personal thing. Just as if I would find out a person believes Rav Shach or R Nachman is. It shows a lack of clear thinking.

Meh!

Shaving a woman's head or forcing them to Uber with strangers rather than drive may sound crazy to me, but life goes on.

Ignored? Was discussed up thread.

Besides, it’s a high expectation for a religious group to not follow their leader because they suspect he’s wrong.

I think it’s religious abuse to force women to shave their heads. Try to convince those groups that those who endorsed it were wrong.

Try to convince any yeshvish guy that many Rishonim didn’t understand embryology the way it actually happens.

Etc etc

AKA, unless something violates halacha, there's a large tent for how people practice Judaism. In the end, you just need to respect that, even if you think it's wrong.

[TheAsh]

Meh!

Shaving a woman's head or forcing them to Uber with strangers rather than drive may sound crazy to me, but life goes on.

Those both bother me tremendously.

[imayid2]

Those both bother me tremendously.

And people who think Rishonims understanding of embryology need to reflect reality?

[Dan]

Those both bother me tremendously.

But you can always find extreme beliefs and practices in every sect of every religion. Gotta just be your best self and live and let live. You're not going to change anything other than giving yourself a headache.

[imayid2]

It shows a lack of clear thinking.

It’s dogmatic. Any secular person will tell you, in fact even some religious, the same about that believing civilization started less than 6000 years ago

[whacked1]

AKA, unless something violates halacha, there's a large tent for how people practice Judaism. In the end, you just need to respect that, even if you think it's wrong.

Right, but many believe that it violates the halochos of avodah zarah then there is no respecting that if you think its wrong

[Dan]

Right, but many believe that it violates the halochos of avodah zarah then there is no respecting that if you think its wrong

Then they're ignorant of halacha and should become better educated.

[imayid2]

Right, but many believe that it violates the halochos of avodah zarah then there is no respecting that if you think its wrong

Hold up!

No one believes believing the Rebbe is mashiach is ע״ז!!

[whacked1]

Hold up!

No one believes believing the Rebbe is mashiach is ע״ז!!

That is false. I've heard directly from people who i consider gedolim (i'm not going to post names, but you can pm)

[EliJelly]

It’s dogmatic. Any secular person will tell you, in fact even some religious, the same about that believing civilization started less than 6000 years ago

Personally I don't care what others outside the Torah world views are and how they view us, I do care more about views/practices within the Torah world that seems to be strange according to how I see things to be standard and ought to be. Not that it has any real effect other than making for good argument hocks.

[imayid2]

That is false. I've heard directly from people who i consider gedolim (i'm not going to post names, but you can pm)

Then they are wrong

I believe you are referring to other things, not just mashiach

[whacked1]

Then they're ignorant of halacha and should become better educated.

there's a large tent for how people practice Judaism. In the end, you just need to respect that, even if you think it's wrong.

[imayid2]

Nope doesn’t work on something so basic