Author Topic: Desmond Tutu RIP?  (Read 2739 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2021, 11:43:30 PM »
I know many Jamaicans that relate to the Palestinians.

Okay, and therefore?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Fish Tank

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2021, 11:55:26 PM »
Do we have a Troll of the Week thread yet?
No, because it's same person every week  :)

Online CountValentine

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2021, 11:59:29 PM »
In the USA, the Jewish community, particularly the visibly Jewish part of the community, is increasingly threatened by anti-Semitism emanating from within the African-american community.
Why is that?
I would say that anti-Semites like Tutu are the most dangerous sort, because the damage they cause is obscured by the celebrity and perceived moral excellence.
I would say with Tutu it is because of the human rights he has championed.
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Online CountValentine

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2021, 12:01:03 AM »
Okay, and therefore?
One would understand why the look at Israel as the oppressor.

Now comes the part where I am accused of calling Israel the oppressor.  ;)
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Offline mordechain

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2021, 12:02:42 AM »
Precisely. If he is perceived as a champion of human rights, his anti-Semitism must somehow be justified or correct. The Jews must actually be evil.

Offline Saulius

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2021, 12:03:56 AM »



Offline aygart

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2021, 12:09:33 AM »


One would understand why the look at Israel as the oppressor.


I don't understand what you are saying
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online CountValentine

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2021, 12:12:46 AM »
Precisely. If he is perceived as a champion of human rights, his anti-Semitism must somehow be justified or correct. The Jews must actually be evil.
So his human right actions are "perceived" but his anti-semitism is fact or perceived?

Is this the same Tutu?
“Israel’s integrity and existence must be guaranteed. But I cannot understand how a people with your history would have a state that would collaborate in military matters with South Africa and carry out policies that are a mirror image of some of the things from which your people suffered,”
and
“The Arabs should recognize Israel, but a lot must change also. I am myself sad that Israel, with the kind of history and traditions her people have experienced, should make refugees of others. It is totally inconsistent with who she is as a people,”
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Online CountValentine

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2021, 12:17:35 AM »

I don't understand what you are saying
Jamaicans relate to what is going with Israel/Palestine. Maybe that is why they look at Israel as the oppressor.
Does that make them anti-semites?

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Offline mordechain

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2021, 12:18:00 AM »
"a mirror image of some of the things from which your people suffered,”

The old Jews are Nazis canard.

Offline aygart

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2021, 12:20:55 AM »
Jamaicans relate to what is going with Israel/Palestine. Maybe that is why they look at Israel as the oppressor.
Does that make them anti-semites?
I am just not getting it. Maybe I am too tired.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2021, 08:06:44 AM »
And once again, the inability to see nuance or look at context bites again. Not everything is black and white (racial pun not intended). The guy accomplished a tremendous amount of good, and his views on Israel are far more understandable in the context of Israel being pretty much the only country who ignored the sanctions on Appartheid South Africa (albeit out of necessity, but again, nuance is too difficult for people).

It's easy to blast anyone as an antisemite. Lord knows I do it a lot. And boycotting Israel as a whole is antisemitic (as discussed elsewhere on this forum). And @CountValentine you picked one quote that sounds more neutral, I'm fairly certain he's said a lot worse about Israel on other occasions, but don't have the time or interest to go looking.

But I dare say life is just not that simple, and he was part of a system of change that occurred without bloodshed when it was predicted to kill countless people in a brutal civil war. He certainly receives a measure of credit, even while he can be legitimately criticized. But to discredit him entirely isn't justified, IMHO

Online CountValentine

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2021, 08:55:21 AM »
And @CountValentine you picked one quote that sounds more neutral, I'm fairly certain he's said a lot worse about Israel on other occasions, but don't have the time or interest to go looking.
You are probably right but blame Google.  :)
All I did was google "Desmond Tutu and Israel".

While we disagree on things, we probably agree on a lot more. Your knack for showing the bigger picture is demonstrated again. 
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2021, 09:16:44 AM »
What am I supposed to do with my pitchfork now
Visibly Jewish

Online CountValentine

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2021, 09:19:58 AM »
What am I supposed to do with my pitchfork now
Stick it the next person who tells you John Tortorella is an overrated bum?  :P
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2021, 10:20:15 AM »
You must be an anti-semite if you find Israels policies vis-a-vis their rights to the land and the rights of "Palestinian Arabs" wrong.
FTFY, as I believe many here find many of Israel's policies wrong. However in the context of this thread I think @Yehuda57 accurately portrayed the bigger picture.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2021, 01:58:18 PM »
On the most basic level, if someone calls for widespread condemnation against Israel while ignoring the severe human-rights violations and government-sanctioned murder in the neighboring countries, it is not unfair to accuse them of anti-Semitism.
I don't know if it was an oversight, but I think this post of mine went unrebutted by CV.

To say my point more elequently, I'll post (or probably, repost) the classic Ari Lesser song on this:


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Re: Desmond Tutu RIP?
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2021, 05:28:50 AM »
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