Masks

[Iz]

The governor didn't "focus on the ones most at risk".  The elderly here isolated themselves, because they couldn't trust the governor to implement safety measures to protect them.

He certainly didn't send sick people to live with elderly people.

[aygart]

If you look back on DDF it becomes pretty clear that DDFers in FL did not agree that DeSantis' policies were wildly successful.  And felt that he was hiding and manipulating the data. 

The overall death rate includes the early weeks in NYC when hospitals were overwhelmed and doctors had no idea what they were doing - not a useful comparison to FL, where cases rose much later. 

If the number of cases was higher than reported that makes the difference even greater not less.

Considering that FL was the FIRST point of cases on the east coast, this in itself point to having done something right. This may have something to do with the next point.

The governor didn't "focus on the ones most at risk".  The elderly here isolated themselves, because they couldn't trust the governor to implement safety measures to protect them. 

two word response to this. Nursing homes.

[CountValentine]

He certainly didn't send sick people to live with elderly people.

So having a head buried in the sand attitude is ok because another state messed up?

[biobook]

Which makes me wonder if "children wearing masks in school" (as opposed to "children wearing masks under parental supervision") is really as helpful as we hope.

Let's say masks worn properly prevent 80% of infections and worn improperly prevent 20%.  I'm just making up numbers here, but the point is that they are at least partly effective, and so should be one tool in the toolbox for preventing covid.

And at this point it's not based on "hope".  We have data.

[etech0]

Let's say masks worn properly prevent 80% of infections and worn improperly prevent 20%.  I'm just making up numbers here, but the point is that they are at least partly effective, and so should be one tool in the toolbox for preventing covid.

And at this point it's not based on "hope".  We have data.

Do we have data that children wearing masks in schools help? I don't mean general data about masks. Because if they are playing with their masks, sharing them, leaving them around... could that be counteracting the benefits?

I am asking honestly, not saying that I know the answer to this.

[Lurker]

Just cuz people are talking about FL's death rates.... Check the excess mortality. 6-8k FL deaths weren't counted, and data points to the first 3-6 months of the year. When comparing to NY, there's also the seasonality factor, where FL's bad season seems to be the summer vs NY's winter/spring.

The main issue with FL isn't so much the individual policies themselves, but the attitude of the leadership in creating and expressing those policies, which created an environment where Covid (and precautions) wasn't (and isn't) taken nearly as seriously by a large part of the population as it should have been.

[Yehuda57]

Surely you realize how bad that sounds, right? "I disagree with the things the CDC is saying/recommending and they've lost my trust bc of politics - but the AAP is still trustworthy. What's that? The AAP is now also saying/recommending things I disagree with? They must also be overrun with politics." 

ETA: To be clear, he obviously has a right to his own opinion - especially as a medical professional. But don't pretend put up a veneer of respecting the opinion of those orgs if not for 'politics'.

You decided the reasoning and then decided it sounds bad. He, and many colleagues, saw that much of the basis of their guidelines was political in nature rather than purely public health. And like I said, they felt this prior to covid.

[Jellybelly]

If idiots won't voluntary get vaccinated then more drastic steps need to be taken.

Why stop with the covid vaccine, let’s mandate the flu shot

[skyguy918]

I didn't

Lol, it's an expression, as I'm sure you know. And also, I quoted both of you, because biobook made the connection first.

[Lurker]

Do we have data that children wearing masks in schools help? I don't mean general data about masks. Because if they are playing with their masks, sharing them, leaving them around... could that be counteracting the benefits?

I am asking honestly, not saying that I know the answer to this.

I don't think an argument can be made that kids touching their masks is more dangerous than them touching their faces. The masks may not be as effective with kids, because they aren't worn properly, but they definitely reduce the spray area of coughs and sneezes. Is it worth the trouble? Depends on the age and the setting. It seems most of the angst on here is aimed at the under 6s, and not older kids, but why bother with nuance if the CDC didn't bother....

[aygart]

Just cuz people are talking about FL's death rates.... Check the excess mortality. 6-8k FL deaths weren't counted, and data points to the first 3-6 months of the year. When comparing to NY, there's also the seasonality factor, where FL's bad season seems to be the summer vs NY's winter/spring.

The main issue with FL isn't so much the individual policies themselves, but the attitude of the leadership in creating and expressing those policies, which created an environment where Covid (and precautions) wasn't (and isn't) taken nearly as seriously by a large part of the population as it should have been.

Anecdotally, I personally had not been asked by ANYONE to keep distance for MONTHS until I was in FL. To me it seemed like people were more careful than in NY/NJ/PA, and I am not only referring to the frum community.

[aygart]

Let's say masks worn properly prevent 80% of infections and worn improperly prevent 20%.  I'm just making up numbers here, but the point is that they are at least partly effective, and so should be one tool in the toolbox for preventing covid.

And at this point it's not based on "hope".  We have data.

Now combine it with this.I do recall having seen data that the effectiveness of masks and SD drops significantly with the length of exposure. With children spending many hours in the classroom this can make a big difference.

[Lurker]

Why stop with the covid vaccine, let’s mandate the flu shot

If it becomes an issue where deaths are more than a few thousand and hospitals are being overrun, it can be a conversation. This is like saying that since we ask for elbows and knees to be covered, we should just go full burqa.

[skyguy918]

You decided the reasoning and then decided it sounds bad. He, and many colleagues, saw that much of the basis of their guidelines was political in nature rather than purely public health. And like I said, they felt this prior to covid.

Lol, no - I'm not deciding anything, I'm explaining how it looks/sounds. I'm sure he has his reasons. But saying that you're disregarding these orgs bc of politics, especially given the timeline you've described sounds bad - certainly in comparison to just saying I disagree with X stance of that org bc of Y, etc.

[biobook]

He certainly didn't send sick people to live with elderly people.

Nursing homes.

I don't want to derail this thread, but will just agree that DeSantis had the time to learn from Cuomo's earlier mistakes with nursing homes.  But NY and FL differ in their elderly populations, so an honest understanding of deaths in the two states needs to take into consideration many more factors than a simple comparison of total numbers.

[Lurker]

Anecdotally, I personally had not been asked by ANYONE to keep distance for MONTHS until I was in FL. To me it seemed like people were more careful than in NY/NJ/PA, and I am not only referring to the frum community.

I'm out of FL for the first time since this started, and I've yet to be in a single situation where I felt personal space wasn't given (outside of the frum areas). Masks may be looked at a little funny by some in the Mid-Atlantic, but with less hostility. Just personal observations... maybe I haven't been out enough to get the full picture yet.

[aygart]

I don't want to derail this thread, but will just agree that DeSantis had the time to learn from Cuomo's earlier mistakes with nursing homes.  But NY and FL differ in their elderly populations, so an honest understanding of deaths in the two states needs to take into consideration many more factors than a simple comparison of total numbers.

This seems strange considering that we had documented FL being hit before NY plus the claim that even that had the data manipulated.

[CountValentine]

Why stop with the covid vaccine, let’s mandate the flu shot

OK 

[Jellybelly]

If it becomes an issue where deaths are more than a few thousand and hospitals are being overrun, it can be a conversation. This is like saying that since we ask for elbows and knees to be covered, we should just go full burqa.

You must not be familiar with how government works.
When they see that they can mandate one shot, they won’t stop at that.
Wouldn’t be long till they figure out a reason to mandate birth control!

[biobook]

This seems strange considering that we had documented FL being hit before NY plus the claim that even that had the data manipulated.

<sigh> What seems strange?  That I don't want to derail? Or that I said FL learned from NY? 
My memory is definitely NOT that the earliest cases occurred in FL, but that the NY patient zero had been in FL for Shabbos before diagnosis, but most early cases were related to him and his family in NY and to the AIPAC convention.