PC friday question of the day.

[WAM]

People with a cornography (my filter will probably block this otherwise) or motzi zera l'vatala problem. Not for people who once saw a billboard.

I would be shocked if the vast majority of single Jewish males + a significant number of married Jewish males don't struggle with mz"l. (Corn is also so accessible that it's a major issue as well.) I'm not talking about shmiras einayim in the street. I don't have proof here. But 300k sounds like a silver goblet half full overly optimistic hope to me.

[mevinyavin]

RYB

The ones with the taiva problem we are indeed tempted to call mumrim leteiovon, but if you understand the nisyonos today, there is a mah yaashe haben velo yechta. Unless you definitely brought the child up in a way that he somehow possesses genuine Yiraas Shamayim, so that he will never be swayed to go with his friends somewhere or listen to what the class wise guy has to offer, and when he deals with his taavos, he will know what to do or ask for help. That is exceptional. For everyone else, there is mah yaaseh. It is all over the place. Also, taivos grow on a teen. He doesn’t even realize what is going on! They give good numbers regarding what percentage of kids from the good yeshivos are addicted to the internet today. There are mumchim that say it is somewhere between 30 and 50 percent. That is the good yeshivos – the bad yeshivos are 100 percent.

[bochur22]

I don't think he was referring to addiction.

That's a quote from a video from Guard Your Eyes, made by Guard Your Eyes, and is R' Shmuel talking about the work Guard Your Eyes does. So I think he IS referring to the people with such a problem. (Not referring to CLINICAL addiction, which is a very high barrier for a corn problem. People can spend all day watching and still not be clinical addicts)

[bochur22]

I'm still not sure how to answer this. But let's back up for a second. What do you think of when someone says this has an effect on a child?

I think of a kid who can wind up drowning in the sea of trash out there, without having anyone he feels can help because of the stigma around this issue. Plus it skews the whole worldview on relationships and can psychologically damage a child who is exposed to it underage. It can lead to many other problems associated with the weight of keeping the secret: Social Anxiety, Depression, anger management issues, etc. It destroys a child's enjoyment of learning and of life in general. It demotes the value of hard work because of the literal instant gratification. It objectifies women. Shall we keep going on? Or can that be enough damage done to a Tmimusdige 12 or 13 year old boy C"V?

[Definitions]

I think of a kid who can wind up drowning in the sea of trash out there, without having anyone he feels can help because of the stigma around this issue. Plus it skews the whole worldview on relationships and can psychologically damage a child who is exposed to it underage. It can lead to many other problems associated with the weight of keeping the secret: Social Anxiety, Depression, anger management issues, etc. It destroys a child's enjoyment of learning and of life in general. It demotes the value of hard work because of the literal instant gratification. It objectifies women. Shall we keep going on? Or can that be enough damage done to a Tmimusdige 12 or 13 year old boy C"V?

Ok fine. If that's what people have in mind when they say that then I guess it is the cause.

Although to me it sounds like the warnings of side effects on medicine bottles.

[bochur22]

Although to me it sounds like the warnings of side effects on medicine bottles.

Unfortunately, these "side effects" are much more common

[drosenberg88429]

Can someone explain the effects to me via pm or here?Currently I think of it as a סימן not a סיבה. But I haven't thought it through very much

Did someone answer this via PM?

[Definitions]

Did someone answer this via PM?

No
I got one opinion clarified here though.

[drosenberg88429]

No
I got one opinion clarified here though.

A) Addiction is known to cause depression, disinterest in life and socialization, fatigue and lethargy, brain fog, low self esteem and self confidence, and diminished performance in life. This is from research in societies where p0rn isn't seen as problematic, so these symptoms are unrelated to a sense of shame from hiding the secret and from transgressing on a religious dictum. There are various survive explanations and theories why this is true. There's a lot of documentation to this effect. Any research on the effects usage has on the brain and a person should return plenty of material. Again, this is universal, and has nothing to do with Judaism.

B) It's a widely witnessed phenomenon, known to all mechanchim and people that deal in this area, that usage turns a person off from Yiddishkeit and learning, and makes one lose their taste and appreciation for it. It instills one with a distaste for holiness, and makes one unable to learn properly. It has this effect even on one who is oblivious, and was never educated about inyanei kedusha, and doesn't realize that there's anything wrong with it, so chalking it up to the shame of transgression wouldn't cut it. There is no real logical explanation why this is true, but it's a known fact that anyone in the field can testify too. Most Rabbeim can probably point out with a very good degree of accuracy which kids are using, just from observing these effects. Again, this won't cause one to be unable to learn science, or math, or history, or literature - just Torah. It's a spiritual timtum halev, like eating non kosher, that has extremely pronounced effects. I think this effect is more unique to Torah and Yiddishkeit than the general effects it has on the masses (who are generally not negatively affected if they don't become users to the point of being on addiction spectrum).  If anyone wants to boost their bitachon in the truth of the Torah, just walk into any high school and ask the Rabbeim to point out a boy that has a problem in this area. It's watching the מי סוטה in action, and is unfortunately affecting a tremendous amount of people.

C) It's abysmal for marriages too, and shalom bayis issues lead to issues in all areas of life, but I don't think that's the age group you're inquiring about.

[Ver hut gazugt]

A) Addiction is known to cause depression, disinterest in life and socialization, fatigue and lethargy, brain fog, low self esteem and self confidence, and diminished performance in life. This is from research in societies where p0rn isn't seen as problematic, so these symptoms are unrelated to a sense of shame from hiding the secret and from transgressing on a religious dictum. There are various survive explanations and theories why this is true. There's a lot of documentation to this effect. Any research on the effects usage has on the brain and a person should return plenty of material. Again, this is universal, and has nothing to do with Judaism.

B) It's a widely witnessed phenomenon, known to all mechanchim and people that deal in this area, that usage turns a person off from Yiddishkeit and learning, and makes one lose their taste and appreciation for it. It instills one with a distaste for holiness, and makes one unable to learn properly. It has this effect even on one who is oblivious, and was never educated about inyanei kedusha, and doesn't realize that there's anything wrong with it, so chalking it up to the shame of transgression wouldn't cut it. There is no real logical explanation why this is true, but it's a known fact that anyone in the field can testify too. Most Rabbeim can probably point out with a very good degree of accuracy which kids are using, just from observing these effects. Again, this won't cause one to be unable to learn science, or math, or history, or literature - just Torah. It's a spiritual timtum halev, like eating non kosher, that has extremely pronounced effects. I think this effect is more unique to Torah and Yiddishkeit than the general effects it has on the masses (who are generally not negatively affected if they don't become users to the point of being on addiction spectrum).  If anyone wants to boost their bitachon in the truth of the Torah, just walk into any high school and ask the Rabbeim to point out a boy that has a problem in this area. It's watching the מי סוטה in action, and is unfortunately affecting a tremendous amount of people.

C) It's abysmal for marriages too, and shalom bayis issues lead to issues in all areas of life, but I don't think that's the age group you're inquiring about.

well said, can you post a link to the research.

[Definitions]

...

Point a and c -  yes I can understand that. I can even add on that it doesn't only affect people that are addicted. Although point a I'm still not 100% sure it's the cause as opposed to an effect.
Point b is what I originally had in mind. I can explain the observations differently. It's not that it's the cause rather since there's no interest (more like belief) to begin with it's the effect.

[aygart]

Point a and c -  yes I can understand that. I can even add on that it doesn't only affect people that are addicted. Although point a I'm still not 100% sure it's the cause as opposed to an effect.
Point b is what I originally had in mind. I can explain the observations differently. It's not that it's the cause rather since there's no interest (more like belief) to begin with it's the effect.

Only people with no interest/belief have taavos?

[Definitions]

Only people with no interest/belief have taavos?

Only people with no belief (maybe aside for clinically addicted people) act on their taavos consistently.

There can be some mistakes that doesn't indicate lack of belief rather not enough time to process things. Once a person understands where the line has to be drawn if they overstep it I think of it as a lack of belief.

[aygart]

Only people with no belief (maybe aside for clinically addicted people) act on their taavos consistently.

There can be some mistakes that doesn't indicate lack of belief rather not enough time to process things. Once a person understands where the line has to be drawn if they overstep it I think of it as a lack of belief.

Much to learn have you

[Definitions]

Much to learn have you

That I must. The pain was unbearable that's why I had to stick my head into the earth to block the sights and sounds. At the expense of my bones becoming frail. Now my bones have become so frail from the extended periods of no nourishment that even wrapping bubble wrap around me won't protect me.

Only small amounts of water and food are allowed at first lest my stomach burst. I've taken a bite yesterday and plan on taking another bite today.

[bochur22]

Only people with no belief (maybe aside for clinically addicted people) act on their taavos consistently.

There can be some mistakes that doesn't indicate lack of belief rather not enough time to process things. Once a person understands where the line has to be drawn if they overstep it I think of it as a lack of belief.

The corn industry spends hundreds of millions of dollars to make certain things look waaaay more enticing then they actually are, and you think it's just a lack of belief?

[drosenberg88429]

Point a and c -  yes I can understand that. I can even add on that it doesn't only affect people that are addicted. Although point a I'm still not 100% sure it's the cause as opposed to an effect.
Point b is what I originally had in mind. I can explain the observations differently. It's not that it's the cause rather since there's no interest (more like belief) to begin with it's the effect.

Point A has a lot of research on it on both sides (although it's a subject known to have low quality research, with a heavy confirmation bias, according to meta analysis overviews that I've looked at). No point discussing that.  Anyone interested can read up on a plethora of material on the subject.

Point C isn't age group of interest, and really ties back into Point A once you take the stigma out of the picture resulting in feelings of betrayal and rejection, thus destroying the trust in the relationship and kickstarting a vicious cycle. (IE, if there would be no perceived issue with usage, it might not have some of same effects.) Let's ignore both of those.

Point B has no way of explaining rationally and על פי דרך הטבע. If you'd hear of one or two cases, it would be tempting to explain it away as a preexisting issue and correlation not equaling causation, due to the inherent discomfort and dissonance of being faced with a rationally inexplicable reality. However, a sufficient degree of anecdotal evidence would show numerous cases where this cannot be the case, either because the person clearly wasn't seeking this out and accidentally stumbled upon it, or the person wasn't even aware that there were prohibitions involved (remember, were talking about young kids, whom are often not educated). The before and after is clear enough to have a statistically unavoidable pronounced effect. Discussion with the people caught up that reach out for help would also indicate similarly. Again, one or two cases could be chalked up to fabrication and unwillingness to admit that there was a preexisting faith crises that lead to this, but at a certain point saying that everyone is concocting the same lies becomes implausible.

[drosenberg88429]

I give you a blessing that you always remain with a lack of personal experience, and no loved ones should be ravaged by this disease. (Although, arguably, the widespread moderate effects on the non addicts with medium exposure is a bigger problem than the also too widespread but more contained acute effects on those whose lives are taken over.)

[jj1000]

I am sure they would argue that there are no innocent Israeli civilians just like many Jews would argue there are no innocent Germans.

What do I win?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CpIyIEPO-OI/

[mevinyavin]

What do I win?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CpIyIEPO-OI/

We can call you Rabbi.
חכם עדיף מנביא.