Is it time to reopen the country?

[aygart]

The fight of the Straw Men.

[ari3]

Please quote where I have advocated for a continued lockdown. I am advocating for a responsible and safe reopening. We have ramped up testing capacity, lowered active infections, discovered more about transmission and treatment, and educated many peopleas  to the risks. Many health care workers hopefully have antibodies, and there is probably some more immunity through the general population as well. We want to prevent a sharp surge in new infections so it needs to be done smartly, not just letting everyone out at once, but I am for reopening most businesses in a safe and regulated manner. You seem to be for no regulation, is that accurate?

That sounds pretty reasonable but that's not what your previous posts seemed to imply

I don't advocate a total immediate opening but something much more accelerated than is going on in NJ
So far Murphy has opened up things that either were never closed or never should have been closed. (other than the beach)
Time (or more precisely was time a week or two ago) to start a serious phased reopening like they have done in GA TX or FL (I don't mean all the details but the general idea)

[etech0]

So far Murphy has opened up things that either were never closed or never should have been closed.
Time (or more precisely was time a week or two ago) to start a serious phased reopening like they have done in GA TX or FL (I don't mean all the details but the general idea)

+1

[S209]

And that will prevent any more people from dying? Or will the same people die, over a longer period of time?
I don't know the answer to that.

Of course the hope is that then less people will die. Anyone who makes it to the point of vaccine or proper treatment will survive. If we basically keep the virus at bay by stopping it from ripping through the population again (through random testing as well as rapid testing of any suspected infections) we’ll hopefully have less people dying as well. What’s difficult about that?

There has already been a lot of information learned about how to deal with this virus, and mortality rate is expected to decline. Ventilators were one early culprit in many deaths.

[etech0]

Of course the hope is that then less people will die. Anyone who makes it to the point of vaccine or proper treatment will survive. If we basically keep the virus at bay by stopping it from ripping through the population again (through random testing as well as rapid testing of any suspected infections) we’ll hopefully have less people dying as well. What’s difficult about that?

There has already been a lot of information learned about how to deal with this virus, and mortality rate is expected to decline. Ventilators were one early culprit in many deaths.

Agree. So when will we draw the line that "now we know enough about this virus that it is safe for normal life to resume"? Treatment will hopefully keep improving over time. Should we wait for a vaccine?

[S209]

That sounds pretty reasonable but that's not what your previous posts seemed to imply

I don't advocate a total immediate opening but something much more accelerated than is going on in NJ
So far Murphy has opened up things that either were never closed or never should have been closed. (other than the beach)
Time (or more precisely was time a week or two ago) to start a serious phased reopening like they have done in GA TX or FL (I don't mean all the details but the general idea)

I don’t know where you saw that. If you are talking about posts from weeks ago, well, those posts held true then. The situation obviously changes from day to day and week to week. By the way, we’re talking about the state, not about Halacha and Judaism. I think there is a different playbook for Yiddishkeit and law although some here don’t seem to realize that.

[S209]

Agree. So when will we draw the line that "now we know enough about this virus that it is safe for normal life to resume"? Treatment will hopefully keep improving over time. Should we wait for a vaccine?

We should be phasing ourselves back in to normal life and constantly test the water. We can hopefully keep the virus at bay through testing and isolation. Constant research on treatment and vaccines means that even if it proves impossible to keep at bay fully we have something to hope for to end this earlier. I don’t think we should have full arenas with no restrictions for quite a while, unless we have managed to quell any new flare ups successfully a few times.

[aygart]

The fight of the Straw Men.

Aka the politicians.

[Lurker]

I don't advocate a total immediate opening but something much more accelerated than is going on in NJ
So far Murphy has opened up things that either were never closed or never should have been closed. (other than the beach)
Time (or more precisely was time a week or two ago) to start a serious phased reopening like they have done in GA TX or FL (I don't mean all the details but the general idea)

Your issue seems to be with NJ in particular, which has some of the strictest rules in the country. You're also comparing NJ's reopening to 3 of the largest states in the country, who have less than half of NJ's death toll COMBINED.

[Dan]

Amazing how many people fail to understand nuance. Obviously opening is going to be a process. Nobody is saying keep everything closed and nobody is saying open everything at once.

FWIW, I think Ohio's reaction to closing and opening has been excellent. Closed things down before they got bad, and have been opening them up again gradually over the past few weeks. Looking a whole lot better than neighbors like Michigan.

[aygart]

Amazing how many people fail to understand nuance.

That sums up the internet.

[ari3]

Your issue seems to be with NJ in particular, which has some of the strictest rules in the country. You're also comparing NJ's reopening to 3 of the largest states in the country, who have less than half of NJ's death toll COMBINED.

I happen to live in NJ as do many of the other posters here hence the focus on NJ
I don't have issues with the states that are doing things at a reasonable pace
While NJ was very bad new cases and hospitalizations have been dropping rapidly for weeks
We have passed all the metrics Gov Murphy originally gave to start reopening at least a week ago and as of now he has basically opened nothing. Hence the complaints of an indefinite lockdown

[ari3]

Amazing how many people fail to understand nuance. Obviously opening is going to be a process. Nobody is saying keep everything closed and nobody is saying open everything at once.

The point is that in NJ they haven't really started the process

[aygart]

The point is that in NJ they haven't really started the process

And this, as I have written numerous times, is the source of many problems. He is in a fight to become the biggest straw man of all.

[Afrages6]

Any state that is still under lockdown has literally already posted criteria for ending the lockdown, and has begun easing restrictions. What are you talking about?

California criteria for reopening is 14 days straight with zero COVID deaths.

[simple26]

These governors are living in alternative reality riding around the state and saying we did everything we could
People are burnt
Cuomo says everyday we can’t force people just give them facts bla bla
They got to get their act together

[avromie7]

It is the first step in a phased reopening, although I agree he is not doing it fast enough or smartly enough

He missed the boat. People aren't waiting around any longer for him to drag this on as long as possible.

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you want, but I believe there is a deliberate effort by the Democratic party to sabotage the economy so Trump doesn't win reelection. (No, Bush was not behind 9/11)

BH the systems won’t be overwhelmed. Flatten the curve was an answer to skeptics who said “we’re all going to catch it anyway”, the answer was “even so we’ll still save lives by spreading it out”. Why is it a bad thing to prevent more people from actually getting sick and dying? Now that we flattened the curve we must let everyone out at once and negate everything that was accomplished?

You mean the government lied to us? This is why I have an issue trusting the government.

A) Didn't actually answer my question. B) You keep using the term "lockdown." I don't know what this is. To my knowledge, there has been no lockdown in this country due to covid-19. There have been state and local stay-at-home ordinances restricting gatherings, but by and large, people have been able to move around freely. You say lockdown like we're at war and people will get shot if they leave their homes. It's rhetoric like this which exacerbates the debate and the divide.

Lockdown refers to government telling people they can't open their stores and government telling me I'm not allowed to stand outside and talk to my neighbor.

[Kobe Bryant]

California criteria for reopening is 14 days straight with zero COVID deaths.

'Pie in the sky' like most left wing radical agendas.

[Kobe Bryant]

A) Didn't actually answer my question. B) You keep using the term "lockdown." I don't know what this is. To my knowledge, there has been no lockdown in this country due to covid-19. There have been state and local stay-at-home ordinances restricting gatherings, but by and large, people have been able to move around freely. You say lockdown like we're at war and people will get shot if they leave their homes. It's rhetoric like this which exacerbates the debate and the divide.

Hiding in our house are we?! so let me fill you in, on what we as a country are going through.
The term LOCKDOWN refers to the government mandating that every aspect of our life shut down, and dictating our every move.
From small and large businesses owners being forced to shutter their doors or lay off employees, resulting in the unemployment  of 33 Million Americans, to closing schools and places of worship, from closing state and county parks to encouraging citizens to inform on their neighbors if they get too close to one another, from police showing up at a private residence because their child had a play date with a neighbor to police brutally and physically harassing a mother in front of her child because her mask wasn't on properly. 

[aygart]

He missed the boat. People aren't waiting around any longer for him to drag this on as long as possible.

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you want, but I believe there is a deliberate effort by the Democratic party to sabotage the economy so Trump doesn't win reelection. (No, Bush was not behind 9/11) You mean the government lied to us? This is why I have an issue trusting the government. Lockdown refers to government telling people they can't open their stores and government telling me I'm not allowed to stand outside and talk to my neighbor.

+1, but flattening the curve includes keeping it flat.