Chaim Walder dies

[ExGingi]

It can start that they shouldn't call the abuser a tzadik

+100000

That seemed to have hit several raw nerves with survivors.

[randomjay]

It can start that they shouldn't call the abuser a tzadik

So you’re saying that all he wants is that when such a story breaks once in a few years (which I agree is way too often) there shouldn’t be people questing the story and call him a Tzadik. That doesn’t seem to be his point at all if you listened to all his videos.

[Yehuda57]

Believe.

[aygart]

So you’re saying that all he wants is that when such a story breaks once in a few years (which I agree is way too often) there shouldn’t be people questing the story and call him a Tzadik. That doesn’t seem to be his point at all if you listened to all his videos.

I dud not watch the videos but if they wouldn't be called tzadikim and the victims Wrigley be called vicious liars they it would make victims much more comfortable discussing it.

[ExGingi]

OTOH, they put up people who were abusers and were subsequently removed from teaching positions and the like, which definitely was a great outcome.

The two people I know (and sometimes meet, hence my question) are there. As I mentioned, one served time in jail and another was convicted and is free pending appeal.

[Yehuda57]

The two people I know (and sometimes meet, hence my question) are there. As I mentioned, one served time in jail and another was convicted and is free pending appeal.

It's a tough question. Obviously we keep our children safe, first and foremost by ensuring they aren't just not alone with them, but aren't out in the position to build a trusting relationship. But beyond that, it's tough. I know one who is in some ways persona non grata in his own home. Do his children never let their kids hang out with Zaidy? It's tremendously sad.

[ExGingi]

It's a tough question. Obviously we keep our children safe, first and foremost by ensuring they aren't just not alone with them, but aren't out in the position to build a trusting relationship. But beyond that, it's tough. I know one who is in some ways persona non grata in his own home. Do his children never let their kids hang out with Zaidy? It's tremendously sad.

Yup. These people ruin many lives and relationships.

Another question: do you (people on this thread) view people who had a single case/accuser (sometimes when they were adolescents themselves) differently than those who have multiple people coming forth as victims?

[zh cohen]

Yup. These people ruin many lives and relationships.

Another question: do you (people on this thread) view people who had a single case/accuser (sometimes when they were adolescents themselves) differently than those who have multiple people coming forth as victims?

I certainly think the details of the case have major bearing on the appropriate reaction, especially with regards to teshuva/re-acceptance into society.

[Euclid]

Yup. These people ruin many lives and relationships.

Another question: do you (people on this thread) view people who had a single case/accuser (sometimes when they were adolescents themselves) differently than those who have multiple people coming forth as victims?

According to R' Shimon Russel (video posted up thread) - most of the abuse victims he sees weren't abused by serial pedophiles. 

[S209]

Another question: do you (people on this thread) view people who had a single case/accuser (sometimes when they were adolescents themselves) differently than those who have multiple people coming forth as victims?

A prominent psychologist told a relative of mine that adolescent abusers who seek help early rarely become adult abusers. I would probably view a single act perpetrated by an adolescent as different (although the victim likely would not!) from the perspective of how to view the abuser.

Each case is different and there are shades of gray but it’s vital to remember that more often than not the victim(s) will still suffer for the rest of their life, no matter the circumstances.

[Saulius]

Yup. These people ruin many lives and relationships.

Another question: do you (people on this thread) view people who had a single case/accuser (sometimes when they were adolescents themselves) differently than those who have multiple people coming forth as victims?

Cases where there is only a single case / accuser -- can be false claim. Now the case against CW, there was testimony of 22 victims, and being that those victims do not know each other made the case extremely credible. Plus, who knows how many victims are there who chose not to testify.

However, in single case/accuser, the accused can be completely innocent, but many choose to go for plea agreements that involve no prison sentence  - they plead guilty to a lesser charge, like misdemeanor  - endangering the welfare of a child. Trials costs hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees, and one can still have a risk of being found guilty by the jury - leading to dozens of years in prison - which can mean life imprisonment for certain people.

[TimT]

Cases where there is only a single case / accuser -- can be false claim.

Or very real.

[CountValentine]

Or very real.

True but you need to proceed with extreme cation.

[AsherO]

According to R' Shimon Russel (video posted up thread) - most of the abuse victims he sees weren't abused by serial pedophiles. 

That could be because the serial ones are more successful at covering their tracks, so their victims are less likely to seek treatment.

[Flatbush]

Would someone be able to translate the gist of what the Feldheim guy was saying?
Thank you

[ExGingi]

According to R' Shimon Russel (video posted up thread) - most of the abuse victims he sees weren't abused by serial pedophiles.

So in those cases, how is a single case different from other single case grave transgressions, such as bullying, violence, or various types of mental/emotional abuse etc.?

[ExGingi]

A prominent psychologist told a relative of mine that adolescent abusers who seek help early rarely become adult abusers. I would probably view a single act perpetrated by an adolescent as different (although the victim likely would not!) from the perspective of how to view the abuser.

Each case is different and there are shades of gray but it’s vital to remember that more often than not the victim(s) will still suffer for the rest of their life, no matter the circumstances.

I am thinking of someone I know who was accused of abuse when he was a counselor in an overnight camp. I never looked too much into the details, but if I was to assume that the accuser was saying the absolute truth, I can still find a way to make said abuser forgivable, given his age at the time (which is probably involved with various hormonal, emotional and other developmental challenges). I don't know where the case ended up going. I believe he was initially arrested when the allegations were brought forth, and the situation definitely affected his life. But AFAIK he wasn't convicted of anything (IDK if it was a plea bargain or something else).

[yfr bachur]

Just a thought.
Is it possible that blowing this particular story up may be causing additional collateral damage to the victims?
If this wasn't blown up publicly, the women could go or be brought to BD and get their get (lehalacha) and not be permanently publicly stained with the info that the divorce was because they are asur to their husband, rather their reputation would be protected under the general "sometime marriages don't work out"... (and have a chance at a normal remarriage)
Additionally, if any women is named publicly, her children may be permanently stained as safek mamzeirim... (which may be the case none the less AYLOR, but why should they have to live their lives knowing that this is public knowledge?). Even if there is a universaly accepted psak that the children are not safek mamzeirim, why should her children know that their mother was Over one of the Gimel Chamuros (no matter whether it was ones or beratzon), and why should she have to live her entire life knowing that her children know?

[AsherO]

Just a thought.
Is it possible that blowing this particular story up may be causing additional collateral damage to the victims?
If this wasn't blown up publicly, the women could go or be brought to BD and get their get (lehalacha) and not be permanently publicly stained with the info that the divorce was because they are asur to their husband, rather their reputation would be protected under the general "sometime marriages don't work out"... (and have a chance at a normal remarriage)
Additionally, if any women is named publicly, her children may be permanently stained as safek mamzeirim... (which may be the case none the less AYLOR, but why should they have to live their lives knowing that this is public knowledge?). Even if there is a universaly accepted psak that the children are not safek mamzeirim, why should her children know that their mother was Over one of the Gimel Chamuros (no matter whether it was ones or beratzon), and why should she have to live her entire life knowing that her children know?

Which is why this entire thread is full of “believe/support the survivors”, but no-one posted a list with their names and pictures (even though there were multiple responses here downplaying the extent of the allegations).

If we as a society didn’t stigmatize the survivors (and stick our nose way to deep into other peoples business for unhealthy reasons) in the first place, your entire concern would be a non-starter.

Your entire argument posits a reality that doesn’t at all have to play out, even if this story does blow over like it did.

[avromie7]

That could be because the serial ones are more successful at covering their tracks, so their victims are less likely to seek treatment.

I don't think the victim themselves usually seek treatment, it's the parents who notice something is wrong and send them to a professional who uncovers the root of their troubles.  A professional (like Rabbi Russell) should be able to uncover it either way.