FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested

[CountValentine]

If only you understood how much an aguna suffers.

My heart has no mercy for any man that leaves his wife, just to cause her to suffer.

What makes you think I am not capable of understanding? You think I don’t know what a “bastard child” is? Pardon my ignorance but can’t Jewish law be changed to get rid of this “get”?

[CountValentine]

....their goal was not the kidnapping nor torture, they wanted a get.

So what anyone does to get to a righteous goal is OK?

[sillypainter]

What makes you think I am not capable of understanding? You think I don’t know what a “bastard child” is? Pardon my ignorance but can’t Jewish law be changed to get rid of this “get”?

From this question alone it shows that you have no understanding about our culture. Don't even try to understand, it's too complicated for you.

[Dan]

From this question alone it shows that you have no understanding about our culture. Don't even try to understand, it's too complicated for you.

Condescending much?

[sillypainter]

Condescending much?

Nope. Just saying that we are TOO complicated, and he won't understand us, and our culture. There are some things outsiders don't understand, it's not a lack of wisdom, it's just you need to live this culture.

And the same I'm afraid goes for the judge in the case, he didn't let these so called "thugs" out on bail because they are a danger for society. I would have my 3 year old girl sleep in their houses without skipping a beat for a minute. I'm sure many here agree on this.

Obviously, they did break the law, this is their only problem, otherwise they are "tzadikim gemurim".

[CountValentine]

Nope. Just saying that we are TOO complicated, and he won't understand us, and our culture. There are some things outsiders don't understand, it's not a lack of wisdom, it's just you need to live this culture.

Do you think I need to live your culture to understand that women suffer from failed marriages? How about you try and live my culture were women get beaten every day and lose their lives from failed marriages? 

[churnbabychurn]

What makes you think I am not capable of understanding? You think I don’t know what a “bastard child” is? Pardon my ignorance but can’t Jewish law be changed to get rid of this “get”?

Jewish law is god given so obviously it cant be changed. 

[sky121]

People don't need to live in our culture to have an understanding of it. They don't have to be Jewish to have an understanding of it. I'd say anyone with a knowledge of what religious people live like (and not necessarily Jews) and what it's like to be a religious person could understand. He may not know all the details and laws but to say he can't understand? That's silly.

[Ergel]

Condescending much?

+1
@CV-Jewish law doesn't work that way. It can't be changed. A get is a biblical requirement. It's not up for discussion.
(A man can marry two wives-that prohibition was much later, late 11th century and only for certain sects and is therefore much more negotiable)

[sky121]

Jewish law is god given so obviously it cant be changed. 

Anyone Jewish knows that nothing is so black and white like that.

[aygart]

From this question alone it shows that you have no understanding about this issue. You probably shouldn't even try to understand, it's too time consuming for someone who doesn't live it.

FTFY
His point is that by asking that the get rules should be changed show a fundamental misunderstanding of the issues at hand. Until someone is willing to put in the time and effort to get this understanding he should not be stating opinions since they will be based upon ignorance. This is an issue which is not fully understood even by many, if not most, orthodox Jews. Hence the halacha that one should not be involved in marriage our divorce ruling unless he is an expert in their rules. That takes years. Wikipedia or google will not do it. Even a regular Yeshiva education won't, but they will realize how much they don't understand. A such, those without even that should probably not bother since they will not even know how much they don't know.

[churnbabychurn]

Anyone Jewish knows that nothing is so black and white like that.

The definition of what the law "is" is not B/W, but the fact that the "Law" can't change is clearly black and white.

[churnbabychurn]

FTFY
His point is that by asking that the get rules should be changed show a fundamental misunderstanding of the issues at hand. Until someone is willing to put in the time and effort to get this understanding he should not be starting opinions since they will be based upon ignorance. This is an issue which is not fully understood even by many, if not most, orthodox Jews. Hence the halacha that one should not be involved in marriage our divorce ruling unless he is an expert in their rules. That takes years. Wikipedia or google will not do it. Even a regular Yeshiva auction won't, but they will realize how much they don't understand. A such, those without even that should probably not bother since they will not even know how much they don't know.

+1

[Menachem613]

Anyone Jewish knows that nothing is so black and white like that.

+1. Reminds me of the Kedushei Ktanah issue which RMF was able to resolve.

[whYME]

Do you think I need to live your culture to understand that women suffer from failed marriages? How about you try and live my culture were women get beaten every day and lose their lives from failed marriages? 

No, you don't need to live our culture to understand that women suffer from failed marriages, but equating an agunah with an abusive civil marriage shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the issues at hand.

[whYME]

No, you don't need to live our culture to understand that women suffer from failed marriages, but equating an agunah with an abusive civil marriage shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the issues at hand.

To be clear:
I'm not talking about the "suffering" aspect of it, rather the resolution, which is, I believe, what we're discussing here.

[Ergel]

No, you don't need to live our culture to understand that women suffer from failed marriages, but equating an agunah with an abusive civil marriage shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the issues at hand.

And your comment shows a lack of understanding of women's plight and inability to leave an abusive situation

[aygart]

And your comment shows a lack of understanding of women's plight and inability to leave an abusive situation

I disagree. Even after the "regular" abusive situation is finally resolved the get issue can live on for years. The former is generally resolved if the husband and wife are now in different parts of the world and have no contract with each other. The get issue only gets more complicated with distance.

[Achas Veachas]

To expand on the point I made before but couldn't elaborate then; not always does going against the law-bad. We are fortunate enough to live in a moral ethical society, and most issues can be solved satisfactorily through legal means. Not always was that the case (case in point: Soviet Russia). The issue of Agunot is a tough one, and unlike abusive marriages the courts in America won't get involved due to separation of church and state issues (in Israel for example, it is considered a human rights issue, and the courts go all out to solve such cases).

Of course not everyone can just "take the law in to their own hands", and the debate here is only whether these Rabbis were the right ones for this job. In the core issue here, whether "the end justifies the means" here, I think the Jewish world is unanimous.

[whYME]

And your comment shows a lack of understanding of women's plight and inability to leave an abusive situation

-1

In case you didn't see my last post before you posted this, I'm talking about the fundamental differences in how the issues are resolved, not how difficult it is for the woman.
(I should know by now that everything needs to spelled out here...)

US law provides a way out for a woman in an abusive relationship. The difficulty for the woman in actually doing it is another story, but the system is in place. If she gets her head in the right place, and/or has the support she needs from friends/family, as difficult as it may be, it can be done. Ultimately it's in her hands to do something.

A woman whose husband absolutely refuses to give a get is SOL. She can be 100% determined and willing. she can have all the support in the world, but there's not a darn thing she can do if he refuses.