Author Topic: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel  (Read 4374 times)

Online aygart

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Feelings don't care about your facts.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline EliJelly

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I was actually at the site of that terror attack about 15 minutes afterwards. I felt complety safe, as did everybody around me. When people in NY are attacked, people get scared. Yes, people I. Ey run to bombshells. There are animals there in the form of human beings. But 10 minutes later, life continues as normal. Here, people change there entire lifestyle. Stop taking public transportation,  run out to get guns, take karate lessons. There is a sense of fear.

Perhaps because in EY people became used to life under threat and people here are still used to the calm and safety we had up until Covid?

Offline DaasTora

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I was actually at the site of that terror attack about 15 minutes afterwards. I felt complety safe, as did everybody around me. When people in NY are attacked, people get scared. Yes, people I. Ey run to bombshells. There are animals there in the form of human beings. But 10 minutes later, life continues as normal. Here, people change there entire lifestyle. Stop taking public transportation,  run out to get guns, take karate lessons. There is a sense of fear.
I wasn’t talking about “feeling” safe which I agree that most Israelis do. I meant “BEING” safe. Quoting pesukim and gedolim doesn’t change the facts on the ground.

Online Sammy82

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Perhaps because in EY people became used to life under threat and people here are still used to the calm and safety we had up until Covid?
Thanks for the compliment. But I'm born and bred right here in the USA. As I believe a few other member who agreed with me here.

Offline mevinyavin

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I wasn’t talking about “feeling” safe which I agree that most Israelis do. I meant “BEING” safe. Quoting pesukim and gedolim doesn’t change the facts on the ground.
...
I simply don't understand how people that just recently had to run to shelters and have had a miracle two weeks ago with armed terrorists can argue that it’s the safest place.
I haven't weighed in on this discussion until now, but here goes. (For the sake of clarity, I live in EY and chose to live here permanently after long discussions about the pros and cons with Rabbi Berkovits and other Rebbeim and friends who made both decisions - to stay permanently and to go back. Call it negius or sunk-cost, whatever, I don't care. If you care about my opinion/feelings, read on, and if not, ignore it. Also, this is more than a response to DaasTora but the above was the motivation to respond.)
If you want to talk about feelings: my understanding of the balance between Bitachon and Hishtadlus (as I understood the Chazon Ish) is that if you feel fear - an indication that your Bitachon does not stretch that far - then more Hishtadlus is required. Or sometimes more work on Bitachon instead, with a Rav to work out which is the Ratzon Hashem. Often there is nothing to do about your situation, so the work on Bitachon is the only option.
Having said that: If the current situation in the diaspora or in Eretz Yisrael is dangerous to some level, one would have to determine which reaction is the Ratzon Hashem, just like every other decision in life. I understand that some consider this level of danger to be at or approaching the level that some action is required. I don't have an opinion on the US matzav, nor do I think that anyone who isn't there should have one (barring one's Rebbe, I guess). My opinion on the IL matzav is that it is not a dangerous situation THAT REQUIRES ACTION other than extra tefila and mesiras nefesh for avodas Hashem. As I recall, after the third stabbing in Shaar Shechem in one week, someone asked Rabbi Berkovits if it is ossur to go there. The Rav said it was clearly muttar to use Shaar Shechem, but why wouldn't one use Shaar Yafo anyway? Similarly, we kept all the instructions from the Misrad Habriut during COVID, but the first shiur the Rav gave in shul (masked and two meters apart), he took apart the sugya of sakana and one's responsibility to others and paskined that there were plenty of reasons (halachically) to ignore the
instructions and just live normally, though as noted, he recommended obeying the Misrad Habriut. (In case you were wondering, the Rav had access to people in various government and health offices who were associated with his talmidim, and I'm sure he knew more about COVID than almost anyone else.) In summary, regardless of feelings, EY is not currently a dangerous place to be.
You shouldn't come to EY without determining if you will be causing more harm than good to yourself and/or to those who are your responsibility. I have mentioned in the past that the Rav does not allow those who ask him to make aliyah if one's oldest is older than seven or eight (he says to wait until one's youngest is sixteen/seventeen and then ask them permission). I was personally involved in three such cases. I don't believe that his opinion has changed even now.
When I first came to EY, Rabbi Berkovits was telling people that the only reasons to move back to Chul were parnassa (where a specific job offer was made), shiduchim (ditto), and kiruv. (His kollel mainly trains Rabbonim who then move to Chul to be mekarev Klal Yisrael. His community is mainly made up of people who stay in Eretz Yisrael due to his advice. So he is flexible but his shita is quite clear and consistent.) A few years ago, he became more skeptical that parnassa was a good reason. He has explicitly stated post October 7th that this opinion is unchanged.
We do, of course, understand that attacks (Rachmana litzlan) are messages from Hashem asking something from us. We strive to become better people, particularly when the matzav is worse than average. I have noted this before (see this post:
RYB, Leil Tisha B'Av 5777, said
)
But I would never trade the extra hashgacha of EY for the lesser hashgacha of Chul because of the situation. Neither did my parents. My mother was even here during the Yom Kippur War, and she somehow convinced her mother, who is not frum, to let her stay. Wherever her seminary was (south), it was twenty miles from the front... I don't think it is relevant if it is the safest place, only if it is halachically safe to not require leaving altz hishtadlus.
I have nothing against those who were told otherwise or who decided otherwise. I am simply sharing my own reasoning. Any mistakes in the above are my own.
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Online gozalim

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Daas Torah says otherwise..
it's @DaasTora (no H)

Online gozalim

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I wasn’t talking about “feeling” safe which I agree that most Israelis do. I meant “BEING” safe. Quoting pesukim and gedolim doesn’t change the facts on the ground.This pasuk does not indicate that tragedies won’t happen in E”Y, as apparent in the last three thousand years and most recently in the last 70 bloody years since the establishment of the state of Israel.

and the tell.
You're welcome to your שיטה הקדושה, But it'll color your perception of reality.

Offline DaasTora

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and the tell.
You're welcome to your שיטה הקדושה, But it'll color your perception of reality.
Facts don’t care about your feelings. FYI I don’t belong to a crowd that has any שיטה in this aspect.

Offline EliJelly

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and the tell.
You're welcome to your שיטה הקדושה, But it'll color your perception of reality.

Lol.


Nothing new.

https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/2487539/jewish/The-Safest-Place-in-the-World.htm

I know the facts, I can't argue with you if chassidus says otherwise.