Author Topic: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?  (Read 43700 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #220 on: November 08, 2015, 01:30:29 PM »
I can only speak from my circles and the women are far from repressed. They have their own voices, make their own choices, and have get-togethers of their own that are empowering.

So 1,000 years ago people beat their wives and took 2nd wives without being punished for it. Apparently things evolve. Where are we going with this?

Judaism believes that everyone, goy and jew, female and male, have a purpose that they can fulfill in making the world a better place. Are they the same purpose? Of course not. No more than the travel agent serves another purpose than the pilot.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #221 on: November 08, 2015, 01:33:29 PM »
I thought i saw someone mentioning at some point in the thread that he wasn't orthodox, but I'm quite possibly  mistaken.
The point I am making is about basic issues. There never seems to be a straight answer.

Are abortions permitted - no
Do women have to shave their head - no
Do women have to cover their head when attending Mass - was yes at one point but is no now
Mother and baby are at risk. Who is saved - Mother

There might be some fringe groups out there but 99% of Catholics understand this. These are basic things there should be no discussion on.
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Offline Baruch

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #222 on: November 08, 2015, 01:43:31 PM »
I'll get a source today, and if not, I'll retract that piece.
There is a source. IIRC, it's based on a stirah in mishnayos, which the Bais Yosef eplains like you.

Offline Emkay

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #223 on: November 08, 2015, 01:45:09 PM »
There is a source. IIRC, it's based on a stirah in mishnayos, which the Bais Yosef eplains like you.
I can get you a dozen sources. And a dozen the other way

Offline yakrot

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #224 on: November 08, 2015, 01:48:23 PM »
The point I am making is about basic issues. There never seems to be a straight answer.

Are abortions permitted - no
Do women have to shave their head - no
Do women have to cover their head when attending Mass - was yes at one point but is no now
Mother and baby are at risk. Who is saved - Mother

There might be some fringe groups out there but 99% of Catholics understand this. These are basic things there should be no discussion on.
According to the lone voice here. If all these questions were asked to a group of hundreds of Christians of various backgrounds and observance levels would everyone agree?

Offline Baruch

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #225 on: November 08, 2015, 01:50:17 PM »
@Aaaron.

The Maharal writes extensively about that a woman has less mitzvos because their more perfect.

The Maharal lived in an era when women had zero rights, and were considered inferior.

He wasn't trying to explain away the Torah.

Offline MosheD

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #226 on: November 08, 2015, 01:50:22 PM »
Welcome to Judaism cm!
Dating back to the times of the mishna there are arguments.
2 jews, 3 opinions

Offline David Smith

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #227 on: November 08, 2015, 01:51:55 PM »
The point I am making is about basic issues. There never seems to be a straight answer.

Are abortions permitted - no
Do women have to shave their head - no
Do women have to cover their head when attending Mass - was yes at one point but is no now
Mother and baby are at risk. Who is saved - Mother

There might be some fringe groups out there but 99% of Catholics understand this. These are basic things there should be no discussion on.
How about homosexuality?
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline aygart

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #228 on: November 08, 2015, 02:06:45 PM »



If the life of a man and a woman are in peril who gets saved first? 



Lets stop right there. What is the answer to this one?

No difference.

Not following. No difference as you can pick one?

Yup. Neither one has precedence over the other.

I have no idea where he picked that out of, I never heard that there's a difference regarding who gets saved first...

I'll get a source today, and if not, I'll retract that piece.

It is a Mishna at the end of Horiyos that the man's life would get saved over the woman's but that a captured woman would get redeemed over the man.

This happens all the time in these discussions. Are members just making stuff up out of the blue?

The one thing worse than someone who doesn't know is someone who doesn't know and thinks he does.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 02:19:15 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline zale

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Re: Re: The funny/strange/interesting/random pictures thread
« Reply #229 on: November 08, 2015, 02:15:29 PM »
My kids are EXTREMELY proud of being Jewish. But they also respect as equals people who are not.

ShlockDoc,

The following story may help shed some light on this matter:

As a small child, Reb Zalman Aharon (the Raza), the older brother of the Rebbe Sholom Dov Ber of Lubavitch (the Rashab) often complained that he was noticeably shorter than his younger brother. One day, the Raza sneaked up behind his brother and pushed him lightly into a small ditch. As the Rashab stood up in surprise, the Raza seized the moment and pointed out that now he was taller. Rabbi Shmuel of Lubavitch, the father of the two boys, observed the entire episode. The Rebbe asked for a chair, ordered the Raza to stand on it, and asked him, “Tell me, who is taller now?” The Raza answered excitedly that yet again he was taller. “Aha!” said Rabbi Shmuel. “There you are! To be bigger than your friend, there is no need to pull him down. Simply elevate yourself!”

Jews have never looked upon other nations as inferior. They merely have been elevated to be on a higher level than the rest. Judaism requires a higher spiritual level, just as a Navy Seal requires a higher level of training, or just as certain jobs require having an immaculate record. 

The problem here is that our "PC" society has ingrained within the minds of the masses that you can't be "different" and be friends at the same time.

There ARE differences between races, genders and religions, and yet, as your avatar suggests, we can STILL coexist. Trying to DENY or MASK that there are differences simply leads to more animosity and war. Men and women, Blacks and Whites, Jews and Gentiles have different qualities and are NOT the same. There is nothing wrong with accepting that.

In our approximately 3,000 years as Jews, when have we started a war with another nation JUST because we believe them to be inferior? Jews have never caused trouble to other nations despite believing that we are a chosen nation and that we have been elevated.

Offline sillypainter

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Re: Re: The funny/strange/interesting/random pictures thread
« Reply #230 on: November 08, 2015, 02:18:43 PM »
ShlockDoc,

The following story may help shed some light on this matter:

As a small child, Reb Zalman Aharon (the Raza), the older brother of the Rebbe Sholom Dov Ber of Lubavitch (the Rashab) often complained that he was noticeably shorter than his younger brother. One day, the Raza sneaked up behind his brother and pushed him lightly into a small ditch. As the Rashab stood up in surprise, the Raza seized the moment and pointed out that now he was taller. Rabbi Shmuel of Lubavitch, the father of the two boys, observed the entire episode. The Rebbe asked for a chair, ordered the Raza to stand on it, and asked him, “Tell me, who is taller now?” The Raza answered excitedly that yet again he was taller. “Aha!” said Rabbi Shmuel. “There you are! To be bigger than your friend, there is no need to pull him down. Simply elevate yourself!”


Jews have never looked upon other nations as inferior. They merely have been elevated to be on a higher level than the rest. Judaism requires a higher spiritual level, just as a Navy Seal requires a higher level of training, or just as certain jobs require having an immaculate record. 

The problem here is that our "PC" society has ingrained within the minds of the masses that you can't be "different" and be friends at the same time.

There ARE differences between races, genders and religions, and yet, as your avatar suggests, we can STILL coexist. Trying to DENY or MASK that there are differences simply leads to more animosity and war. Men and women, Blacks and Whites, Jews and Gentiles have different qualities and are NOT the same. There is nothing wrong with accepting that.

In our approximately 3,000 years as Jews, when have we started a war with another nation JUST because we believe them to be inferior? Jews have never caused trouble to other nations despite believing that we are a chosen nation and that we have been elevated.

Wow, You nailed it....


Offline Dan

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #231 on: November 08, 2015, 02:19:00 PM »
Very nice and proves my point.
The education system should not teach putting down goyim, it should emphasize the things we can do to fulfill our own mission.
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Offline Aaaron

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #232 on: November 08, 2015, 02:19:52 PM »
No difference.

Yup. Neither one has precedence over the other.

I have no idea where he picked that out of, I never heard that there's a difference regarding who gets saved first...

There is a source. IIRC, it's based on a stirah in mishnayos, which the Bais Yosef eplains like you.

I can get you a dozen sources. And a dozen the other way

It's b'feirush a mishna +

Horiyos 3:7 and 13a; Shulchan Aruch 251, 8 and 9, and the Rama, 252, 8.

Whoops, Aygart beat me to the punch.

I'll await your sources to the contrary...


@Aaaron.

The Maharal writes extensively about that a woman has less mitzvos because their more perfect.

The Maharal lived in an era when women had zero rights, and were considered inferior.

He wasn't trying to explain away the Torah.

This isn't about who has more mitzvos.  This is about which gender is clearly treated as inferior.  And to prove the point, ARGUENDO, let's say the Torah was written by humans.  Which gender would have written the type of things we're discussing now?

Offline sky121

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #233 on: November 08, 2015, 02:20:52 PM »
While it sounds nice in the story, the problem today is that we don't always treat everyone else with respect and it comes from that.
Things got confused along the way.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline aygart

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #234 on: November 08, 2015, 02:23:04 PM »
While it sounds nice in the story, the problem today is that we don't always treat everyone else with respect and it comes from that.
Alas we are still human. Flawed application does not show flawed concept.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #235 on: November 08, 2015, 02:25:19 PM »
It's b'feirush a mishna +

Horiyos 3:7 and 13a; Shulchan Aruch 251, 8 and 9, and the Rama, 252, 8.

Whoops, Aygart beat me to the punch.

I'll await your sources to the contrary...




Are we looking at the same Shulchan Aruch? The one I'm looking at speaks about giving Tzedakah and says clearly that you give to a woman before a man...

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #236 on: November 08, 2015, 02:26:25 PM »
Are we looking at the same Shulchan Aruch? The one I'm looking at speaks about giving Tzedakah and says clearly that you give to a woman before a man...

Yes, I was illustrating the dichotomy between saving a life vs giving tzedakah or ransoming. 

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #237 on: November 08, 2015, 02:30:00 PM »
If the lifesaving part didn't make it into Shulchan Aruch is a safe bet to say that it has no bearing on Orthodox Jewish life and Hashkafah...

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #238 on: November 08, 2015, 02:48:14 PM »
Except the fact that it's explicitly stated in a mishna implies it's a belief in the Jewish faith. Regardless of it's bearing on our day-to-day lives.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #239 on: November 08, 2015, 02:52:17 PM »
According to the lone voice here. If all these questions were asked to a group of hundreds of Christians of various backgrounds and observance levels would everyone agree?
You are confusing Christians with Catholics.
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