Ben Shapiro

[S209]

I understand the article to be specifically focusing on LGBTQ and how the topic has been fumbled in the MO community(ies) which is also symptomatic of a broader issue, not about Modern Orthodoxy in general with LGBTQ as a random example. I found it to be a very reasonable and well presented take.

[aygart]

The basis of our performance of mitzvos is our being able to rationalize them? The "chokification" of mitzvos is a *good* thing. We are super rational about Torah and mitzvos not rational. We refrain from stealing because G-d said so, not because it makes sense. Otherwise why do we keep shatnez?

"I wish I could just rob that bank, but what can I do Hashem told me not to"

"I am ready to kill him with my bare hands but the Torah doesn't let"

Do you not differentiate between chukim and mishpatim?

[zh cohen]

Another general point regarding the response here;

The article is about the MO perspective and has to be read that way. For example, even if for Chabad (or Chareidim in general) "chokization" is a value, in MO it isn't.

[S209]

It’s typical frum drivel of “not just is my opinion correct but I’m also in the right morally, Hashem is on my side of this issue”. Keep g-d out of this and just state your opinion as what it is, your personal opinion.

I strongly disagree with this take.

[imayid2]

The basis of our performance of mitzvos is our being able to rationalize them? The "chokification" of mitzvos is a *good* thing. We are super rational about Torah and mitzvos not rational. We refrain from stealing because G-d said so, not because it makes sense. Otherwise why do we keep shatnez?

You, particularly, have gone on ad nauseum in various ways speaking about morality being G-d's morality, not our understanding of it. Perhaps not in those words, but that is the underlying theme of your positions in all the political threads. This runs counter to that entirely. You make the very same mistake Ben is accusing others of. Because he is championing "values" you agree with, you're disregarding that he threw G-d out to get there.

You are so wrong I do not know where to start.

Let me say at the outset that I read this article without knowing he wrote it, immensely enjoyed out while wondering what it had to do with Ben, and got a good shock when w realized he wrote it.

We are supposed to internalize Torah values, that’s something I’ve tried to convey and I don’t know how you can get an impression otherwise from my posts.

[imayid2]

I strongly disagree with this take.

It’s downright blasphemy but you’re being nice

[CountValentine]

Wow
I have a newfound respect

That was easy. You in the market for a bridge? 

[drosenberg88429]

"I wish I could just rob that bank, but what can I do Hashem told me not to"

"I am ready to kill him with my bare hands but the Torah doesn't let"

Do you not differentiate between chukim and mishpatim?

האומר על כן ציפור יגיעו רחמיך

[imayid2]

It’s typical frum drivel of “not just is my opinion correct but I’m also in the right morally, Hashem is on my side of this issue”. Keep g-d out of this and just state your opinion as what it is, your personal opinion.

I’m being מלמד זכות that your point is this is just an excuse for his political opinions so you object for him to mix God into it.

That doesn’t mean what he says isn’t true. It is. Judaism views LGBQABCD as a fetish. An abominable perverted amorality. To say that it’s a chok because Ben Shapiro said otherwise is being sucked into the  same whole you’re accusing him of.

 אגרות משה

[aygart]

האומר על כן ציפור יגיעו רחמיך

Please explain the relevance.

[imayid2]

That was easy. You in the market for a bridge? 

I did not know he was capable of making a coherent Religious argument ostensibly leaving out politics. If his motivation is from the right place or not isn’t something I care about too much. I’m  judging the content, not the person.

[drosenberg88429]

Please explain the relevance.

That is in theory a mishpat

[CountValentine]

I did not know he was capable of making a coherent Religious argument ostensibly leaving out politics. If his motivation is from the right place or not isn’t something I care about too much. I’m  judging the content, not the person.

I don't think anyone said he was stupid.

[Yehuda57]

"I wish I could just rob that bank, but what can I do Hashem told me not to"

"I am ready to kill him with my bare hands but the Torah doesn't let"

Do you not differentiate between chukim and mishpatim?

Of course there's a differentiation, that's implicit in there being different categories. The foundation for why we do it, or as he puts it, the foundation for Torah-based morality is G-d, not our rationalizing.

Morality based on human rationalizing is *exactly* how you end up justifying LGTBQ, euthanasia, infanticide, or any of the current political hot potatoes.

[aygart]

That is in theory a mishpat

So? I have a feeling you are misunderstanding the mishna.

[zh cohen]

Of course there's a differentiation, that's implicit in there being different categories. The foundation for why we do it, or as he puts it, the foundation for Torah-based morality is G-d, not our rationalizing.

Morality based on human rationalizing is *exactly* how you end up justifying LGTBQ, euthanasia, infanticide, or any of the current political hot potatoes.

You are missing his point. He says clearly that morality is defined by G-d. However the MO view is that we can and should understand the reasoning of that morality.

[Yehuda57]

He is writing a response to an issue that is now at the forefront. I'm not sure why you are surprised that a political commentator is commenting on how MO is dealing with a political issue. I don't want to hear Ben Shapiro's opinion on education in the MO world. I want to hear (and he was probably asked to write) about his area of expertise.

I understand the article to be specifically focusing on LGBTQ and how the topic has been fumbled in the MO community(ies) which is also symptomatic of a broader issue, not about Modern Orthodoxy in general with LGBTQ as a random example. I found it to be a very reasonable and well presented take.

This is the lede

Modern Orthodoxy is in a state of crisis. It is in a state of crisis because its leadership class has, in large measure, abandoned its central principles in favor of political expedience, surrendering long-term interests for short-term tactical maneuvering.

[gubevo18]

"I wish I could just rob that bank, but what can I do Hashem told me not to"

"I am ready to kill him with my bare hands but the Torah doesn't let"

Do you not differentiate between chukim and mishpatim?

Correct see Rambam in Shmonah Perakim where he differentiates clearly between mitsvos such as shatnez and mitzvos like lo sirtzach. With the former it is noble to say I would like to but what can I do since Hashem said its assur. With respect to the latter, he very clearly states that it is bad to want to be oiver on them.

[imayid2]

The basis of our performance of mitzvos is our being able to rationalize them? The "chokification" of mitzvos is a *good* thing. We are super rational about Torah and mitzvos not rational. We refrain from stealing because G-d said so, not because it makes sense. Otherwise why do we keep shatnez?

Of course there's a differentiation, that's implicit in there being different categories. The foundation for why we do it, or as he puts it, the foundation for Torah-based morality is G-d, not our rationalizing.

Morality based on human rationalizing is *exactly* how you end up justifying LGTBQ, euthanasia, infanticide, or any of the current political hot potatoes.

Do you understand the difference between “it’s immoral because God said so though I can’t imagine why that is nor do I need to know”, vis a vis say the way Rav Moshe expresses how to understand it?

[aygart]

Correct see Rambam in Shmonah Perakim where he differentiates clearly between mitsvos such as shatnez and mitzvos like lo sirtzach. With the former it is noble to say I would like to but what can I do since Hashem said its assur. With respect to the latter, he very clearly states that it is bad to want to be oiver on them.

Exactly. That was my source.

Interestingly, Rashi only brings נפשי קצה בבשר חזיר and אי אפשי ללבוש כלים while The ספרא also includes אי אפשי לבוא על הערוה