I’m a brutally honest guy. I can’t say I always only see things in black and white, but sometimes I don’t think there’s a rational answer to certain things.
I go down the street and see a father and daughter. He doesn’t look particularly modern (not that it makes a difference, it just surprises me more) and the daughter has short sleeve shirt and skirt above the knees. Sorry, I noticed.
A few questions:
1) is there a universal definition of tznius at minimum? Are there Orthodox Rabbis who have proven above the knees/elbows is still tznius?
2) what’s in the minds of people who dress less than tznius? I’m asking a very innocent question here. I do things wrong in my life I’m certainly not perfect, but do they see themselves as doing something wrong? What is a justification for it? I really want to know what people sincerely argue for their mode of dress.
No, do not drag in other topics within Judaism to compare and contrast or other communities-make your own thread if you want.
3) I also understand that this is certainly not a new phenomenon ; in fact being MORE tznius is the newer of the concepts - just look at old weddings with gedolim in them and the women have short sleeves. I wonder if the people then had the same goals and values as the modern orthodox community has today or did they just not know of a different lifestyle? I know my grandmother dressed like that then and she certainly wouldn’t be called modern nowadays , not at all.
4) I’m not talking about people in more frum communities who dress less tznius bc I think they are doing it to be rebellious rather than a lifestyle they grew up with. Also, I don’t want to broadbrush the topic bc I know everyone is different and may have a slightly different reason for doing things - but it still looks like a generally accepted concept that people accepted almost sub consciously.
Can we have a conversation about this? I would particularly love to hear (or read articles) from people or rabbis who work in these communities and understand the topic.