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I’d be wary though, [Kehos has] been accused of tampering with the text of when it doesn’t fit with their narrative, for example when the צמח צדק spoke with “too much” respect about the גר”א.
Yada yada yada

It’s pretty clear that my op was unnecessarily incendiary and provocative, it also did not account for who was קהת in that timeframe (which I had been unaware).
Because I brought it up I should say this: It’s clear that the allegations about the כתבי יד are unsubstantiated, and are thus conspiratorial.

« Last edited by Dan on January 13, 2023, 10:09:03 AM »

Author Topic: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery  (Read 49014 times)

Offline flyingace

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1000 on: December 21, 2023, 04:28:07 PM »
How did Mendelssohn’s children and students turn out?

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1001 on: December 21, 2023, 04:29:03 PM »
How did Mendelssohn’s children and students turn out?
Very badly.

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1002 on: December 21, 2023, 04:35:01 PM »
Very badly.
He himself did not abandon Jewish practice but he certainly did not teach and encourage Orthodox Judaism. Even his Biur, which seemed unobjectionable, was written to get regular religious Jews to study German.

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1003 on: December 21, 2023, 04:40:44 PM »
He himself did not abandon Jewish practice but he certainly did not teach and encourage Orthodox Judaism. Even his Biur, while containing nothing objectionable, was written to get regular religious Jews to study German.
I don’t know what you mean by not teaching and encouraging Orthodox Judaism. Yes he didn’t have a Yeshiva, but he was a steadfast and committed halachik Jew and firmly believed that Halacha cannot change.

Yes he promoted learning German. Acculturation isn’t a direct contradiction to Orthodox Judaism. It’s part of the Modern in Modern Orthodoxy.

Quote
"Indeed, I cannot see how those who were born into the house- hold of Jacob can in good conscience exempt themselves from the observance of the law.

We are permitted to reflect on the law, to search for its meaning, and occasionally, where the Lawgiver himself provides no reason [for a particular law], to surmise that it must perhaps be understood in terms of a particular time, place and set of circum- stances.

 Therefore, the law can perhaps also be changed according to the requirements of a particular time, place, and set of circumstances, but only if and when it pleases the supreme Lawgiver to let us recognize His will-to make it known to us just as openly, publicly, and beyond any possibility of doubt and uncertainty, as He did when He gave us the law itself.

As long as this has not happened, as long as we can show no such authentic dispensation from the law, no sophistry of ours can free us from the strict obedience we owe to it. Reverence for God must draw a line between speculation and observance, beyond which no conscientious person may go."

Mendelssohn - Jerusalem

Offline flyingace

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1004 on: December 21, 2023, 04:45:29 PM »
I don’t know what you mean by not teaching and encouraging Orthodox Judaism. Yes he didn’t have a Yeshiva, but he was a steadfast and committed halachik Jew and firmly believed that Halacha cannot change.

Yes he promoted learning German. Acculturation isn’t a direct contradiction to Orthodox Judaism. It’s part of the Modern in Modern Orthodoxy.
The Haskalah movement wanted to solve Judaism’s PR image by modernising Judaism . That was a very slippery slope that led to Reform. Mendelsson’s motives may not have been explicit but if most or all of his children and students went off that says something.

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1005 on: December 21, 2023, 04:53:02 PM »
The Haskalah movement wanted to solve Judaism’s PR image by modernising Judaism . That was a very slippery slope that led to Reform. Mendelsson’s motives may not have been explicit but if most or all of his children and students went off that says something.
Yes, I agree that it says something. Though there is no reason to think that he’d be pleased about what happened.

Mendelssohn yearned for the acceptance of the Jew in all areas of society. In those days the only way for a Jew to be accepted was to convert. Mendelssohn would himself never consider such a step, his children (most of them) and some disciples took it to achieve that goal.

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1006 on: December 21, 2023, 05:44:29 PM »
Yes, I agree that it says something. Though there is no reason to think that he’d be pleased about what happened.

Mendelssohn yearned for the acceptance of the Jew in all areas of society. In those days the only way for a Jew to be accepted was to convert. Mendelssohn would himself never consider such a step, his children (most of them) and some disciples took it to achieve that goal.
That yearning for acceptance is at the root of several anti-Torah movements. It showed a profound lack of Jewish historical understanding, although I can understand where it came from. The Jews of Europe suffered tremendously and were desperate.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2023, 05:48:10 PM by flyingace »

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1007 on: December 21, 2023, 05:49:53 PM »
Below is an editorial statement published in The Jewish Observer in January 1987 after an article was written about Moses Mendelssohn. This was written by the Novominsker Rebbe zt"l.

A cursory view of Jewish history might indeed consider Moses Mendelssohn an "enigma." But a perspective that rests on the truths of Torah, and one keenly sensed by the sages of his and later days, draws some very definite and unequivocal conclusions about Mendelssohn and his meaning. The search for hidden flaws and for clues to the apostasy of his children wrongly dignifies the man and ignores the main lesson to be learned from the Mendelssohn era.

One needn't really speculate too much as to why his progeny left the fold. One needn't even speculate about Mendelssohn himself-was he or was he not a true believer. The stark facts about
Mendelssohn are sell-revealing. Admittedly, he was an observant Jew, but culturally he was a thoroughbred German. He may have technically discharged his obligations to Jewish law; this, however, was but a circumscribed aspect of his being. His social and intellectual impact lay elsewhere-in the Enlightenment and secularity that he glorified to masses of Jews; and in the cultural assimilation that he and his friends and family embraced with such fervor. The "synthesis" that Mendelssohn aimed for and which he clearly portrayed was worse than a departure from Jewish tradition. It was nothing less than a schizophrenia of values, a falsification of the Torah ideal, that was doomed to fail. 

The Gaon and Tzaddik, Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch also lived in an age and society of Emancipation. Yet, he was privileged to rescue entire generations from religious oblivion. Unquestionably, the distinction lies in the fact that Rav Hirsch's accommodation of "Derech Eretz"to the totality of Torah specifically rejected the split-personality type of Jew that Mendelssohn personified.

Mendelssohn's life seems a paradox only in a limited sense. In the larger, instructive sense, it was the centerpiece in a sea of spiritual corruption. The society that basked in Mendelssohn's fame, the milieu that he so comfortably belonged to and led, were the very forces of Reform and shmad that wrought havoc in the sacred community of Jews.

Life is more than a series of private thoughts and private deeds. Especially as regards figures of history, the meaning of their lives rests firmly on their contemporary and future impact. The Chasam Soter and the other Gedolei Yisroel who denounced Mendelssohn recognized this clearly. His personal observance mattered little to them because, wittingly or not, Mendelssohn was a
maisis umodiasch, a bold symbol of that philosophy and lifestyle that were the prime causes of the rabid assimilation that followed in his wake. Small wonder, then, that his children, raised as performing Jews but cultural gentiles, later took the final convenient step to baptism.

The exposition on Mendelssohn in the last issue of The Jewish Observer misses the mark, not merely because it treats him too kindly, but because the obvious is left unsaid-the idea put clearly by Ghazal:  "Truth stands up, not falsehood." Torah, as synonymous with truth, is secured by Divine Providence only when it is the core of Jewish existence. Seen from this perspective, the life and meaning of Moses Mendelssohn at the core was hardly "Jewish." It was a radical shift away from the path of Jewish existence. No veneer of formal adherence could thus prevent the harsh sentence that the Judge of history-and Torah Jews-imposed upon him.

-Rabbi Yaakov Perlow

https://agudah.org/wp-content/uploads/1986/09/JO1987-V19-N10.pdf

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1008 on: December 21, 2023, 06:09:57 PM »
@EliJelly Your claim that the mass shmad in Europe was a consequence of Mendelsohn ...

Where did he say that? I don't see any post like that.

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1009 on: December 21, 2023, 06:40:03 PM »
I did read somewhere that the Magid of Mezritch told the Baal Hatanya to write the Kuntres Talmud Torah in answer to the claims of the Misnagdim that Chassidim don't learn ...

Google led me to
https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/81076/shulchan-aruch-harav-and-the-gra
Which quotes from
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2299711/jewish/Chapter-2-The-Alter-Rebbes-Public-Service-2.htm#footnoteRef21a2299711

Is that what you are referring to?


Going down that rabbit hole I found this line in the same book:
Quote
At that time, the disease of Berlin Haskalah began to spread. Its founders — Mendelssohn and his assistant, Weisel (the linguist and master of grammar) — were more or less G‑d-fearing. However, the Haskalah Movement spread quickly among the Jews, and many of them aimed to free themselves from the authority of the rabbis. Thus, they began to be lax in observing mitzvos, and they scorned Jewish customs.
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2299703/jewish/Chapter-1-Misnagdim-and-Maskilim.htm

Obviously I have no idea how accurate this translation is to the original.

https://www.kedem-auctions.com/he/node/143860 also found this auction of what's apparently a second ediiton.

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1010 on: December 21, 2023, 06:49:21 PM »
How did Mendelssohn’s children and students turn out?
Just like most people of that generation. No different.

The idea that a movement was begun by Mendelsohn is just not historical. He was a thinker, and he was renowned during his lifetime for his heretical ideas. Meaning that people were receptible to them already. But if the Reform movement has a 'father' it is Abraham Geiger, and he was his own man, and a terrible one too.

The Haskala in Russia/Lithuania was loosely inspired by the German version, but its unique flavor meant that it did not need to be connected to heresy.

Emancipation and the ability to live a 'normal' life was the single greatest cause of the mass shmad, and most other associations are unproven.

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1011 on: December 21, 2023, 06:52:42 PM »
Google led me to
https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/81076/shulchan-aruch-harav-and-the-gra
Which quotes from
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2299711/jewish/Chapter-2-The-Alter-Rebbes-Public-Service-2.htm#footnoteRef21a2299711

Is that what you are referring to?

No, I think I read it in a Teshura somewhere. I thought it was a well-known fact.

Going down that rabbit hole I found this line in the same book:https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2299703/jewish/Chapter-1-Misnagdim-and-Maskilim.htm

Obviously I have no idea how accurate this translation is to the original.

https://www.kedem-auctions.com/he/node/143860 also found this auction of what's apparently a second ediiton.
For some strange reason, quoting zilzul of early Chassidim, even in the name of Gedolei Yisroel, is hatred.
Yet quoting zilzul of the Gra from Chassidim who were born almost 100 years after the Gra passed away is perfectly ok. 

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1012 on: December 21, 2023, 07:11:52 PM »


Just like most people of that generation. No different.



Umm no. The rest of that generation did not have two thirds of their children convert
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1013 on: December 21, 2023, 07:24:11 PM »
. The Chasam Soter and the other Gedolei Yisroel who denounced Mendelssohn recognized this clearly. His personal observance mattered little to them because, wittingly or not, Mendelssohn was a
maisis umodiasch, a bold symbol of that philosophy and lifestyle that were the prime causes of the rabid assimilation that followed in his wake. Small wonder, then, that his children, raised as performing Jews but cultural gentiles, later took the final convenient step to baptism.
The Chas”s or other Gedolim of the time do not talk of him as a maisis umodiach. In fact the Chas”s uses rabbinic honorific when referring to him, although he clearly vehemently disagreed with his philosophical ideas and thought his writings to be dangerous.

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1014 on: December 21, 2023, 07:26:15 PM »
Where did he say that? I don't see any post like that.
it manifests in the consequences.

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1015 on: December 21, 2023, 07:29:08 PM »

I read the Teshuva from the CS in Darkei Hora'ah and he treats the Maharitz Chayes with the utmost respect. And he does not mention a word against Haskala at all, only against publicizing kulos because the hamon am, i.e. the amei haaretz, will misuse them.

You missed the point. Not only does he treat him with respect, but he's also showering him with praises, some weird ones that doesn't fit the מהר״ץ חיות persona at all, and that's when he expresses clear mistrust about him in another tshuva. Also, he's very much begging him not to go forward with all these novel chidushim and kulos. That's all not very C"S style how he has written to any other Gadol he admired. (Think R"M Banet, RE"Z Margolis, R"M Mintz etc. and Ritz Chayas wasn't even in that league) Clearly he saw him as a potential threat, as he was hanging around with the maskilim, and given his enormous gadlus in Torah and the prolific writer he was, he wanted to keep a grip on him so not to lose him, with which he was successful. He doesn't mention haskalah because that's not the topic of that tshuva at all. 

Haskala was not the issue at all in that part of the world.

Ever heard of נחמן קרוכמל, שי״ר ,יוסף פערל etc. They were all from that eastern Galicia area and the friend's of the מהר״ץ חיות. Polish yiddishkeit didn't succumb to haskalah because Poland wasn't as prosperous as Germany and because chassidus rejected them fiercely. So instead the Maskilim were forced to Bohemia, Moravia and Germany.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2023, 07:37:57 PM by EliJelly »

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1016 on: December 21, 2023, 07:32:49 PM »
He was a thinker, and he was renowned during his lifetime for his heretical ideas.
What’s an example of a heretical idea he was renowned for?

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1017 on: December 21, 2023, 07:34:29 PM »
The Chas”s or other Gedolim of the time do not talk of him as a maisis umodiach.

משחתם בהם מום בם


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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1018 on: December 21, 2023, 07:35:30 PM »
משחתם בהם מום בם
That is a much milder expression

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #1019 on: December 21, 2023, 07:39:23 PM »
That is a much milder expression

Choose between a pig or a rat